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Prester Jane posted:So far as I am aware the only other form of dysphoria is gender dysphoria- and now that I think about it there is an interesting essay to be had comparing/contrasting the two. I'd read the hell out of that essay. Would the various forms of bypass logic be well described as particular kinds of thought-terminating cliche? It seems like a quite close fit to me.
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Jul 11, 2019 13:27
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Facehammer posted:I'd read the hell out of that essay. I think the concepts are definitely related. Bypass logic is kind of like the building materials that thought terminating cliches are buily from. For example: responding to a discussion of in the Middle East with "glass the desert" is both a thought terminating cliche and a demonstration of the bypass of maximum force. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 15:46 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 13:41
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Prester Jane posted:Okay now that I understand what you're saying, this is a valid criticism. But I'm also still at the point where I'm trying to connect all my theories internally to each other, or rather I'm trying to communicate the reason they are all connected. I worry that you're going down this path, PJ. I know you're open to using this stuff when it falls into your lap, like with millenarianism, but you don't seem to be seeking it out actively. It also concerns me that you characterised the benefit of now knowing about the millenarianism research as being primarily about shared terminology that you can now use to explain your own ideas better. You're right that that's a benefit, as far as it goes, but the ideas that you haven't thought of, or overlooked, or didn't see in a particular perspective are easily more valuable than that. Good research is almost never a solo affair, and being part of a community of peers is what separates good scholars from cranks. Luigi's Discount Porn Bin has issued a correction as of 14:35 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 14:33
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Prester Jane posted:I think the concepts are definitely related. Kind of like the building materials that are from. For example: responding to a discussion of in the Middle East with "glass the desert" is both a thought terminating cliche and a demonstration of the bypass of maximum force. ha ha ha yeah love to see it folks By the way, property is theft, all cops are bastards, and the piss tape is super fuckin real
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Jul 11, 2019 15:44
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did this thread get moved from d&d or something because this is like actual scholarly debate and I think CSPAM is too dumb for it I mean I know I am I'm basically over here going  and looking to see who ate sixers for Shenji so I know who to keep an eye on
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Jul 11, 2019 16:23
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Chokes McGee posted:did this thread get moved from d&d or something because this is like actual scholarly debate and I think CSPAM is too dumb for it It's just a really good thread
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Jul 11, 2019 16:25
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Chokes McGee posted:did this thread get moved from d&d or something because this is like actual scholarly debate and I think CSPAM is too dumb for it If I remember right it's the successor to a D&D thread of the same/similar name, which is perhaps part of why the conversation is perhaps a bit toneier than the usual nonsense we get up to. crazy cloud posted:It's just a really good thread 
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Jul 11, 2019 17:26
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Chokes McGee posted:did this thread get moved from d&d or something because this is like actual scholarly debate and I think CSPAM is too dumb for it It was a D&D thread and the usual suspects came in and trolled Prester with super long but bad-faith posts in the usual way until it was unreadable. Then when the mods started targetting her but not them she ragequit and I told her CSPAM would be a lot more welcoming because we don't put up with concern trolls and will shitpost them the gently caress out of here, and are overall more aligned with her anyway by hating both right wing cults and centrist platitudes It "belongs" in D&D insofar as effort threads do -- but not insofar as SA culture goes, and those guys already ruined it by being assholes Happy Thread has issued a correction as of 19:17 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 19:10
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Dumb Lowtax posted:D&D ... ruined it by being assholes checks out I'm glad it's here and really good, I'm just baffled sometimes that CSPAM acts dumber than they are
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Jul 12, 2019 16:45
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Chokes McGee posted:checks out cspam has lots of posters who very vocally resent the idea of having hope for anything so it gets a little  sometimes.
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Jul 12, 2019 16:49
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Luigi's Discount Porn Bin posted:Trying to build a massive, internally-coherent theoretical framework in advance of really putting in the effort to connect it to previous scholarship is a fundamentally misguided approach to social science. When I was in grad school. I made a model that explained why I thought there was a structural reason for the overcapacity in the containership lines. I've posted the causal loop diagram in some of the D&D trade threads. But I got asked by the program head "How did you create this?", because his goal for the program was to teach people how to do what I had done. I gave him a bullshit answer. The real answer was: I saw it and merely put it down on paper. I couldn't tell that because I would have been telling him his program was a failure. My brain spit it out because I'm am immersed in the subject professionally. When I was an engineering undergrad I had a similiar experience. Other students would memorize methods for solving problem instances. These are the steps to diagram the state of steam through turbine stages, etc. I didn't ever have to do that. I looked at the drawing or drew the problem and my brain spit out a few near complete equations. So I produced the right answer consistently, but without the work, basically jumping from assumptions straight to answer ( and the correct answer). Much to the ire of my proffesors. But change the problem instance with a new twist and the people who memorize methods would get hosed up. Not everyone's brain works in the methodical manner universities and schools in general teach. I had the great fortune of having been in a program (probably the best one in the country) for other weirdos like me for most of elementary, middle and portions of high school. So I had been taught to fake it and I can jump through the hoops. Later in grad school I encountered the same thing in linear programming. Students are taught to produce systems of equations methodically in a way that can be solved by a matrix in the computer, think tableau or the excel matrix solver. My brain just spits out the systems of equations in a way suitable for solving by substitution, but that's not suitable format for a matrix solver so I have to go back and add all the zero terms. Very early in elementary school I had similiar issues with reading. When you have a first grader who has already worn out a copy of the Hobbit, they tend to go "lol gently caress this poo poo" if one tries to force phonics on them. But that led to testing and a diagnosis for me. It seems to me that this might be the same way for Prester. I guess what I'm saying is my own experience is less like construction, and more regurgitive. It's in there and I vomit it out and then the work of methodically and rigorously connecting it, supporting it with citations etc, is an after the fact exercise.
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Jul 12, 2019 18:13
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BrandorKP posted:When I was in grad school. I made a model that explained why I thought there was a structural reason for the overcapacity in the containership lines. I've posted the causal loop diagram in some of the D&D trade threads. But I got asked by the program head "How did you create this?", because his goal for the program was to teach people how to do what I had done. I gave him a bullshit answer. The real answer was: I saw it and merely put it down on paper. I couldn't tell that because I would have been telling him his program was a failure. My brain spit it out because I'm am immersed in the subject professionally. This makes so much sense of things. I just intuitively recognize patterns and I can't necessarily explain right away how things work. But trying to explain things to other people, and having those people genuinely trying to understand me back, that helps me create a way of explaining something that I understand on an intuitive level. See, in the old thread we had kind of worked a system out where an I would post these thought pieces trying to explain extremist behavior that were generally pretty jargon Laden, and other posters wood respond and try to engage with my ideas on their own terms. This helped me tremendously refine my ideas, and refined my explanations of ideas. I'm pretty bad at naming things and the names of things have changed quite a bit based on feedback that was received over the course of that thread. Another thing is every single aspect of the framework has been questioned repeatedly and from a wide variety of angles at this point, that's most of what the old thread was. We weren't rude to each other, but there was a hell of a lot of disagreement on basically everything. I worked really hard to lead by example and set a tone in that thread that really encourage people to just go with ideas and see where it took us, have a bunch of discussions about those ideas, and then try to bring it back to Earth. This process worked pretty well all in all, and he'll there were supposed to the old thread where fischbach made effort post that were polite and informative and interesting based on him disagreeing with someone over some sort of pedantic quibble. Another thing that I would frequently do is I would go out and find news stories or events that were developing, and write up a detailed interpretation of them based on what I thought was going on using my framework. I would sometimes write up really extensive think pieces looking way on down the line and making a bunch of half educated guesses, and these were not just simply accepted. They were challenged they were disagreed with, they were debated. And it was done without getting bare-knuckled or going for the throat. I'm by no means perfect, and I'm not a prophet, I was just doing analysis based on my own life experiences. But I got a whole hell of a lot of things right, and I stood my ground on things that has since turned out to be quite accurate. I didn't get everything right, and whatever I stepped out of my wheelhouse I generally missed by a mile and a half, but whenever I was talking about cults or online radicalization or manipulation techniques I was generally dead on. But I was allowed to stake out these positions, everyone who disagreed with me was allowed to stake out and detail their disagreements, then we'd all just kind of collectively sit back and watch as things played out, and go from there. Ever since I started this thread instead of trying to take is trusting thoughts and see where they go or make my case from usual positions, most of what I've gotten his either critiques on how I'm proceeding on this work, recommendations on how I need to stop what I'm doing on the work and get as close to a university education is possible first, endless list of things I should be doing or ways I should be doing this or that, and I haven't hardly been able to complete a thought. This was started as a vanity project, and although its grounds something will be on that at this point, it's still always functioned well by taking interesting trains of thoughts and just seeing where they lead for the sake of it. Take for example how I developed by theories on qanon. I had seen it a couple of times on Twitter and run across a few mentions of it here or there, but never really looked into it until I stumbled on a Twitter post that had a bunch of screen shots of Q drops. On an intuitive level, I instantly recognized that as a Nostradamus Hustle- but I didn't have a word to describe it. It took me something like a month to figure out a word to describe this particular pattern of grifting that I call a Nostradamus Hustle. Now once I saw a Nostradamus hustle going on, I was kind of intrigued and started looking into it a bit deeper because of all the overt political overtones. And it was in studying Q drops as well as the people who were talking about it that I noticed that this Nostradamus hustle was different from any other Nostradamus house while I had seen before, and the reason for that was because it seemed to be intentionally trying to set up situations that would later drive large-scale compaction cycles. Then I started looking deeper and dug into how qanon had appeared and spread across the internet, that's when I sudpected that it looked less organic and more like a controlled op driving a narrative. I didn't conclude that it was Russia until I'd examined who the loudest voices were who started promoting qanon. Geromi Corsi, Alex Jones, Russia Today, and a subreddit whose moderators mysteriously got interviews on Alex Jones were among the initial sources of its large-scale spread. Jones and Corsi are individuals I've long ago tagged as being (on some level) mouthpieces for Russian propaganda, so this tilted me heavily towards concluding that it was probably the Russians. But yeah all of this is very much an intuitive process for me, I see something, I recognize a pattern, but I don't necessarily have the language to describe what I'm recognizing or why it's important. It takes me time to work that all out. So I write these big think pieces trying to describe my ideas, and I often try to pick targets that are at least somewhat falsifiable. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 23:47 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 23:34
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prester i've been in this from the beginning and like, wasn't one of your goals to gain an academic grounding even if that didn't involve university itself? i keep talking about it because i thought it was one of your plans. if you're totally disinterested in how your stuff lines up with academic stuff then i'll stop and just read what you write instead of contributing, i guess. you aren't really putting out much analysis at the moment so people are going in other directions with the discussion. i feel like you're still sometimes responding to the people in this thread as though we're the d&d trolls rather than a mix of new folks and people who have been reading and contributing constructively since the start. how are our posts keeping you from completing your thoughts??? i just don't get what the tense atmosphere in the thread right now is even about, honestly. Jazerus has issued a correction as of 23:58 on Jul 12, 2019 |
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Jul 12, 2019 23:54
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Today's Dollop is about Lyndon LaRouche and his cult http://thedollop.libsyn.com/387-lyndon-larouche
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Jul 17, 2019 03:55
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Prester Jane posted:I worked really hard to lead by example and set a tone in that thread that really encourage people to just go with ideas and see where it took us, have a bunch of discussions about those ideas, and then try to bring it back to Earth. I tried to go off in a direction with an idea at the end of the page before last and you didn't reply  The "wtf is all this about" posts just get more engagement. If you want, it's possible to leave them unacknowledged and move on.There are a lot of "wtf is all this about" posts and "how do you know that" posts here now that it's in CSPAM, because to them it's new. Probably one of the tradeoffs of moving here; it was kind of trading a familiar and well-versed in-group to a much larger out-group. With the higher traffic here comes a much higher number of people who haven't read your stories or know your background or concepts but who feel free to talk anyway. It's probably easier said than done to just refrain from engaging with people who aren't regulars, repetitive though it may be, because how else can an idea grow but without new recruits. Harder still because it's impossible to stop anyone from just dropping in and leaving low-effort questions and thoughts anyway, due to CSPAM's unrestrained culture and chat-like pace. The thread probably won't go back to feel of a "small in-group" as long as it's so visible here, but maybe that's not a bad thing. There's also benefits of being in CSPAM (no centrists). It beats reading fishmech posts (and the replies from anyone who takes the bait), trust me. *For the sake of not making the thread seem tense, this post's first sentence is not meant to be a callout -- no harm done, the post didn't need a reply. Just trying to think up a possible model for why it's different here. Prester Jane posted:Ever since I started this thread instead of trying to take is trusting thoughts and see where they go or make my case from usual positions, most of what I've gotten his either critiques on how I'm proceeding on this work, recommendations on how I need to stop what I'm doing on the work and get as close to a university education is possible first, endless list of things I should be doing or ways I should be doing this or that, and I haven't hardly been able to complete a thought. ...this stuff might be a symptom of some of the previously dedicated people not following you out of D&D to here -- if so, why didn't they and can they be brought here? Plus the effects of the much higher traffic CSPAM gets which would maybe outnumber them. Happy Thread has issued a correction as of 05:51 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 05:34
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I just read your writeup of Trump and it's real good. I almost feel bad for him.
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Jul 17, 2019 14:09
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Nevvy Z posted:I just read your writeup of Trump and it's real good. I almost feel bad for him. I understand your point to a degree. He's suffered a lifetime of abuse and is in the final stages of dementia. However, I don't have a single ounce of sympathy in my body for him. He chose greed and ego over stopping the abuse cycle. gently caress him.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:56
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It's obvious Willem Spronsen cowed the chud narrativists into quite possibly the biggest compaction cycle, but I'm sorry Prester, if he himself was an anarchist narrativist and this is also our compaction cycle, then I am a proud antifa narrativist.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:25
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Nevvy Z posted:I just read your writeup of Trump and it's real good. I almost feel bad for him. In a just world he'd have been taken away from his abusive father and shown how to be a human being. Only then he'd be reintroduced to the world. If the world were just today, he'd be quarantined as a danger to the rest of the world.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:35
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I think this may be an example of the facade dropping, here's a narrativist encouraging his followers to spread fake news and conspiracies, because it doesn't matter so long as it hurts the enemy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm_C2DIxpIk Re: reaching out to the polysci people I know: the only luck I've had was a couple of people promising to pass it on and then they didn't mention it again. I'm waiting a little bit to reach out to that professor, since I only have their professional email and they typically don't start checking those again until August while they work on their personal stuff. Maybe it would be more productive to try media outlets? The mainstream ones probably wouldn't care, but there might be some leftist sites or even counterculture ones that might be interested if you pitched it is as something like "I grew up in an Evangelical cult and here's why Trump and his supporters are like that." Edit: New York Magazine and The Daily Beast might be the most receptive mainstream ones. Best Korea has issued a correction as of 21:27 on Jul 18, 2019 |
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Jul 18, 2019 06:51
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It looks like Trump has hit an ore of purestrain attention supply with the Squad/Pelosi/Racism tweeting. That's got to be why he's doubling down so hard on it, he gets to demean democrats and women of color, and everyone is looking at him and talking about him.
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Jul 18, 2019 08:32
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evobatman posted:It looks like Trump has hit an ore of purestrain attention supply with the Squad/Pelosi/Racism tweeting. That's got to be why he's doubling down so hard on it, he gets to demean democrats and women of color, and everyone is looking at him and talking about him. My question is: this is the apex of trump trumping it up on twitter that I have been wondering when not if we would arrive at. Now that it's happening, with so much time left until November 2020, where does he possibly go from here to chase the dragon when literally calling for physical removal of his political opponents no longer does it for him?
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Jul 18, 2019 08:38
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ross perot in hell posted:My question is: this is the apex of trump trumping it up on twitter that I have been wondering when not if we would arrive at. Now that it's happening, with so much time left until November 2020, where does he possibly go from here to chase the dragon when literally calling for physical removal of his political opponents no longer does it for him? The election campaign is basically gonna be one big Twitter beef.
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Jul 18, 2019 08:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:The election campaign is basically gonna be one big Twitter beef. Well yes but I was sort of hoping that itt people would potentially have, from the narrativist model, a testable hypothesis about what happens now. It will be one big twitter beef yes, but he has run out of room for further escalation with 16 months to go! Again I'm not being hyperbolic, he is literally calling for the physical removal of his political opponents while his administration commits a slow motion genocidal ethnic cleansing. His narcissism and narrativism demand increasingly large supply hits - where does he go for them, from here!?
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Jul 18, 2019 09:01
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Jul 18, 2019 09:34
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He's at "They should go back home" now. It can escalate to "Someone should send them back home!" and "If you want to MAGA, send them back home!"
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Jul 18, 2019 09:43
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evobatman posted:He's at "They should go back home" now. It can escalate to "Someone should send them back home!" and "If you want to MAGA, send them back home!" I'm sure it'll be fine, Nancy will know what to do when he does
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Jul 18, 2019 09:47
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ross perot in hell posted:Well yes but I was sort of hoping that itt people would potentially have, from the narrativist model, a testable hypothesis about what happens now. It will be one big twitter beef yes, but he has run out of room for further escalation with 16 months to go! Again I'm not being hyperbolic, he is literally calling for the physical removal of his political opponents while his administration commits a slow motion genocidal ethnic cleansing. His narcissism and narrativism demand increasingly large supply hits - where does he go for them, from here!? The next escalation is to tell his follower to start sending random brown people "home" instead of these high profile congresswomen. Honestly just seeing some people just now start to realize that these rallies are fascist is loving shocking to me. They were fascist from the start. Seeing people just now, in July, come to the realization that they're trying to kill Ilhan Omar when this poo poo has been going on for months makes me just feel exhausted. Sometimes it feels like libs are just months/years behind on realizing what the gently caress is actually happening.
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Jul 18, 2019 13:53
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I'm not going to lie, I think a lot of liberals who think they would have been against slavery during the 1800s wouldn't have actually been against it. Like, at most they would have hoped to eventually end slavery at some point in the future.
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Jul 18, 2019 14:00
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RandomPauI posted:I'm not going to lie, I think a lot of liberals who think they would have been against slavery during the 1800s wouldn't have actually been against it. Like, at most they would have hoped to eventually end slavery at some point in the future. Well, they wouldn't want to get fired from their 12 hour factory shifts and have their 8 children starve.
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Jul 18, 2019 14:34
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evobatman posted:He's at "They should go back home" now. It can escalate to "Someone should send them back home!" and "If you want to MAGA, send them back home!" This seems like a pretty good assumption as long as he stays locked onto the racist base for his attention fix. What actually happens would depend on whether he can both win the power struggles inside his bloc on whether to go more extreme and also replace the less extreme people that get purged with good enough material that his bloc stays competitive with opposing blocs. Whether legitimacy for the more extreme ideas can be built among competent enough people in critical positions, either directly through assumption of the narrative or indirectly through values like loyalty and deference to authority.
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Jul 18, 2019 14:53
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RandomPauI posted:I'm not going to lie, I think a lot of liberals who think they would have been against slavery during the 1800s wouldn't have actually been against it. Like, at most they would have hoped to eventually end slavery at some point in the future. That's basically how it was back then. The number of actual abolitionists who viewed black people as equal to white people was vanishingly small; most of them thought black people were still less intelligent and many wanted their liberation to be followed by sending them back to Africa or elsewhere. Wasn't really their fault, since they were raised from infancy to believe in it and everyone else did, but that demonstrates how strong of a personality and belief in humanity it took back then to break free of everything that was "common knowledge" in society.
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Jul 18, 2019 15:46
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evobatman posted:He's at "They should go back home" now. It can escalate to "Someone should send them back home!" and "If you want to MAGA, send them back home!" Don't you want to see our colored cousins home again? My friend? All you have to do is follow the worms *D-E-F-E chord progression as trump rants incoherently into a microphone*
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Jul 18, 2019 16:10
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uncop posted:This seems like a pretty good assumption as long as he stays locked onto the racist base for his attention fix. What actually happens would depend on whether he can both win the power struggles inside his bloc on whether to go more extreme and also replace the less extreme people that get purged with good enough material that his bloc stays competitive with opposing blocs. Whether legitimacy for the more extreme ideas can be built among competent enough people in critical positions, either directly through assumption of the narrative or indirectly through values like loyalty and deference to authority. The failed ICE raid proved they're not 100% committed to Auschwitz yet. A lot of that was activists making sure people knew their rights, but ICE could've said "gently caress it" and hauled all of them off anyway (and probably gotten away with it). There's some weak stomachs out there. It gives one hope.
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Jul 18, 2019 16:12
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Chokes McGee posted:The failed ICE raid proved they're not 100% committed to Auschwitz yet. A lot of that was activists making sure people knew their rights, but ICE could've said "gently caress it" and hauled all of them off anyway (and probably gotten away with it). I think there was a statement made by an ICE official that the attempted attack on a detention center made them very wary about the planned raids. It's a lot easier to round up undesirables when you don't think you're going to get shot at for doing so.
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Jul 18, 2019 20:25
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he already has near-unilateral power, as the only two official bodies that are able to check his power have proven themselves unwilling to do so. all the van spronsen murder does is ensures they carry out the ethnic cleansing with more guys and more guns, which they weren't really prepared for on a sunday morning.
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Jul 19, 2019 04:58
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/us/white-nationalists-dna-tests.html Thought this was an interesting case that describes a Narrativist comunity (Stormfront) around discovering racial purity isn't so pure and the way the community reacts to it, specifically around rebuilding/supporting the narrative. quote:Such questions have long intrigued the sociologists Aaron Panofsky, who studies the social implications of genetics at the University of California, Los Angeles, and Joan Donovan, whose research at Harvard University focuses on how information is manipulated on the internet. Study for the article: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0306312719861434
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Jul 19, 2019 22:37
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Frequent Handies posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/us/white-nationalists-dna-tests.html That's existed ever since the creation of modern racism. The idea of "whiteness" is an intentional construct by white supremacists in response to losing favor in the public space. All the way through the turn of the 20th century the WASPS had no problems staying prejudiced against Italians, the Irish, Poles, etc. But they needed to get as many people to rally on their side as possible, so they began consolidating groups that they had previously disregarded into the general umbrella of "white", giving them a greater base to discriminate against colored people. Some extremists will follow the One Drop rule and exclude anyone even vaguely questionable, but for the most part they're fine making excuses to keep people with them.
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Jul 20, 2019 04:19
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Blood / Race / Whiteness is an attempt to replace a broken myth of origin. Any attempt to replace a broken myth of origin is always going to be a contradictory piece of crap.
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Jul 20, 2019 06:36
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I'd say PJ should probably be careful to avoid falling too hard into the writing tics common to people suffering from untreated schizophrenia, but on a moment's thought not only does PJ probably know those all too well but most of said tics I can think of are almost indistinguishable from academic writing anyway, which has its own disturbing implications.
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Jul 21, 2019 11:26
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