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Who do you wish to win the Democratic primaries? This poll is closed. |
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| Joe Biden, the Inappropriate Toucher |
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18 | 1.46% |
| Bernie Sanders, the Hand Flailer |
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665 | 54.11% |
| Elizabeth Warren, the Plan Maker |
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319 | 25.96% |
| Kamala Harris, the Cop Lord |
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26 | 2.12% |
| Cory Booker, the Super Hero Wannabe |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Julian Castro, the Twin |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Kirsten Gillibrand, the Franken Killer |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Pete Buttigieg, the Troop Sociopath |
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17 | 1.38% |
| Robert Francis O'Rourke, the Fake Latino |
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3 | 0.24% |
| Jay Inslee, the Climate Alarmist |
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8 | 0.65% |
| Marianne Williamson, the Crystal Queen |
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86 | 7.00% |
| Tulsi Gabbard, the Muslim Hater |
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23 | 1.87% |
| Andrew Yang, the $1000 Fool |
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32 | 2.60% |
| Eric Swalwell, the Insurance Wife Guy |
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2 | 0.16% |
| Amy Klobuchar, the Comb Enthusiast |
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1 | 0.08% |
| Bill de Blasio, the NYPD Most Hated |
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4 | 0.33% |
| Tim Ryan, the Dope Face |
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3 | 0.24% |
| John Hickenlooper, the Also Ran |
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7 | 0.57% |
| Total: | 1229 votes | ||
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Marxalot posted:If Harvard wants to stop charging $40k a semester or whatever then we'll talk? Alternatively we can nationalize these dogshit private schools that only exist so the already incredibly rich can network more effectively. I'm down for that. Exactly. If they want to convert to public schools, there is a history of private colleges and universities doing that in the US. Then we will send kids to them for free. If Ranceford P. Swellingham IV can’t countenance the notion of little Rancy 5 going to a pleb school, they can keep it private. They also need to use this plan to eliminate any legacy or donor admission advantages so the Habsburgian date rapist class can start competing on a slightly-less tilted field. Also eliminate football from these schools and make it so no coach can be paid higher than a similarly-experienced faculty member.
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Jul 14, 2019 18:57
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a.lo posted:I still don’t know what Warren has done to mark a “good candidate” I guess she has been in Bill Maher more than other candidates (Cory Booker???)? The bar for "good candidate" is pretty low right now. Half the field are centrism elementals, and Buttigieg and Booker have both told minority-rights advocates in recent weeks that they straight-up don't want the votes of civil rights activists. Only a couple of the candidates are willing to tell the left that progressive priorities matter and should be considered, and even though at least some of those candidates are definitely lying, that's still less than 25% of the field who care about leftist support enough to even pretend to hear what they have to say.
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Jul 14, 2019 18:59
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selec posted:Exactly. If they want to convert to public schools, there is a history of private colleges and universities doing that in the US. Then we will send kids to them for free. If Ranceford P. Swellingham IV can’t countenance the notion of little Rancy 5 going to a pleb school, they can keep it private. They also need to use this plan to eliminate any legacy or donor admission advantages so the Habsburgian date rapist class can start competing on a slightly-less tilted field. what about graduate/professional schools? what about the 10-20k (or more in a couple areas) annual cost of living you'll pay to attend college away from home? student debt is going to continue being a problem, writing this off as "well don't go to harvard then!" doesn't actually address the ways it will continue to burden normal people. debt relief should be ongoing until we can get rid of it altogether - and the Sanders bill has a ton of funding through taxes built in that could make that happen.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:01
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eke out posted:what about graduate/professional schools? what about the 10-20k (or more in a couple areas) annual cost of living you'll pay to attend college away from home? Generally speaking as a society i would like us to democratize and free educations from monetary concern as theres a difference between schools for the specialization of knowledge and schools that exist to create an aristocratic class. If resources are allocated correctly without capitalist intent no one should be going far from home to get the education they want. i realize this may sound insane in some ways. Your ideas have definite merit, I just would go further.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:23
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eke out posted:what about graduate/professional schools? what about the 10-20k (or more in a couple areas) annual cost of living you'll pay to attend college away from home? If you’re getting a PhD and you’re paying for it, you’re getting screwed.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:28
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I still can’t imagine why anybody would support the boring republican warren who has awful plans and is a warhawk shill. All her plans are garbage after one glance. Bernie’s are far better (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 14, 2019 19:36
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eke out posted:what about graduate/professional schools? what about the 10-20k (or more in a couple areas) annual cost of living you'll pay to attend college away from home? So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees?
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Jul 14, 2019 19:44
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Yes that’s how socialism works. Europe does it.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:47
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Punk da Bundo posted:Yes that’s how socialism works. Europe does it. Does Europe really pay you $10 - $20k /year for living expenses while in college?
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Jul 14, 2019 19:50
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OctaMurk posted:So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees? Food and shelter yes, its not really the governments business what you do in your leisure time. i mean unless your hobby is "commit crimes" but i dont think im talking to members of the Republican party here.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:50
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OctaMurk posted:So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees? the current one-time-only universal debt forgiveness plan will do exactly that for everyone that has debt at the time it goes into effect, yes. i'm arguing we should continue to do that rather than just privilege anyone lucky enough to have finished taking out loans at the right time. in fact, since bernie's other plans involve free public tuition, limits on interest rates, stopping the most hosed up private loans, etc, it should be much easier to forgive future debt since it won't include some of the worst forms of exploitative loans that've helped create the current bubble. e: oh this person just doesn't like socialism lol eke out fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 19:50
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OctaMurk posted:So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees? Do you oppose candidate proposing that (none are) or are you just railing against helping people
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Jul 14, 2019 19:51
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OctaMurk posted:Does Europe really pay you $10 - $20k /year for living expenses while in college? Many countries in Europe pay students a stipend for living expenses. IIRC, I got like 600-700€ per month back in the day which isn't necessarily enough to live on by itself, but it helps a whole lot.
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Jul 14, 2019 19:54
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eke out posted:to keep forgiving student loans on an ongoing basis my dude Wouldn't making those schools free make a lot more sense, rather than letting them charge whatever they want and paying off the debt afterwards.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:05
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VitalSigns posted:Wouldn't making those schools free make a lot more sense, rather than letting them charge whatever they want and paying off the debt afterwards. i think "all higher education is literally free" is something we'll probably need to amend the Constitution to accomplish, but "all higher education is effectively free (through ongoing debt forgiveness by the federal government)" could be accomplished as soon as you have the majorities needed (and you kill the filibuster, probably) i agree that that should be the goal, but we'll probably need intermediate steps given our current complete inability to amend the constitution
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Jul 14, 2019 20:12
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OctaMurk posted:So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees?
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Jul 14, 2019 20:16
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Cerebral Bore posted:Means testing has never, ever meant that you get an objectively fair cutoff point where only the people who can afford it have to pay, but rather it's always been a way to make people who need help jump through unnecessary and demeaning hoops and as a wedge to chip away at social programs. It's poo poo because it's all downside and no upside, except that some numbers fuckstein types get to feel all smart about themselves, and gently caress that noise. This. It's demeaning and humiliating for the people who use a means tested program and the fact that it is means tested stigmatizes the program and the people who use it too. Like the way "welfare" became a dirty word in the 80s and 90s. If we look at actual successful social democratic countries with successful welfare states (Sweden, etc.), one thing that stands out is the universal applicability of welfare programs. When welfare services are only offered to the poor, the people who don't see themselves to be directly benefiting, the rich and upper middle classes, go loving permanently apeshit. They hate paying for things for someone else and they just chip away endlessly until there's nothing left over decades. The services, which were probably never very good to begin with since they're just for the poor anyway lol, just get worse and worse and are held up as examples of how the government just can't provide services. But if they see some benefit too, if they're invested in the system like everybody is, it can be a different story. The Three Worlds of Welfare Capitalism by Gøsta Esping-Andersen gets into this: the liberal vs. the social democratic welfare state. I think it's important to take this approach since none of the candidates are realistically proposing the (preferable) alternative of forcibly abolishing the existence of the rich and full communism now.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:23
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Come to think about it, does Bernie's plan address people living in the dorms at school? That could be a way to minimize (or even outright zero out) cost of living expenses at covered schools.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:24
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Unoriginal Name posted:Do you oppose candidate proposing that (none are) or are you just railing against helping people I think it makes sense to cover tuition, fees and room and board for public schools, but just ongoing debt forgiveness sounds dumb as hell. If you want to make college free--then make it free. If you want to provide students a stipend, provide them a stipend. You don't need to means-test that: everyone gets the same deal. But don't just hand folks basically a blank check to go to whatever private school they want with whatever 'living expenses' that entails.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:26
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The year is 2035, and Beto O’Rourke has just finished making his opening statement in the the first Democratic debate. He has spoken 17 languages and told 5 separate 3 act stories. No one knows what the gently caress is going on.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:38
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eke out posted:what about graduate/professional schools? what about the 10-20k (or more in a couple areas) annual cost of living you'll pay to attend college away from home? OP you've sold me on nationalizing the ivys. OctaMurk posted:So it's not enough to pay for people to get a four year degree at a public school, we also need to pay for their living expenses for four years and for private schools and for graduate degrees? Unironically loving yes. And we wouldn't be the first (or even 10th) major country to do it. Even just a few hundred a month would be absolutely life changing for most students.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:40
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OctaMurk posted:Does Europe really pay you $10 - $20k /year for living expenses while in college? I got paid like €5k p.a. to do my undergrad and my MSc, and about €18k or thereabouts during my PhD, which I supplemented with supervising labs and marking exams and theses, etc. It wasn't a huge amount of money but it was pretty nice. This was all in Ireland fwiw
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Jul 14, 2019 20:41
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AOC is my president.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:42
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Free tuition and debt forgiveness are not transformative policies. They commit further to an employment system which demands absolutely pointless qualifications. Generic "college degree" requirements are a sexist racist way to sidestep the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Policies that entrench the existing system are making the problem worse, not better. It's the same flaw the ACA has in promoting employer controlled healthcare. Debt forgiveness is buying votes without ever solving the problem.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:44
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DARPA posted:Free tuition and debt forgiveness are not transformative policies. They commit further to an employment system which demands absolutely pointless qualifications. Generic "college degree" requirements are a sexist racist way to sidestep the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Policies that entrench the existing system are making the problem worse, not better. It's the same flaw the ACA has in promoting employer controlled healthcare. If only there was a proposed free public college program that could reduce the hurdles put in place...
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Jul 14, 2019 20:47
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There are reasons to go to college other than getting a job afterward and I honestly don’t see how else you solve that problem. I can’t imagine it’d be legal to force employers to drop the college degree requirement for instance.
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Jul 14, 2019 20:49
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TrixR4kids posted:There are reasons to go to college other than getting a job afterward and I honestly don’t see how else you solve that problem. I can’t imagine it’d be legal to force employers to drop the college degree requirement for instance. Strong tax incentives to reward employers for hiring employees without college degrees would be a start
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Jul 14, 2019 21:06
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Z. Autobahn posted:Strong tax incentives to reward employers for hiring employees without college degrees would be a start Yeah, Walmart, Amazon and McDonalds could really use some tax breaks
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Jul 14, 2019 21:08
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Z. Autobahn posted:Strong tax incentives to reward employers for hiring employees without college degrees would be a start Numbers Fuckstein strikes again!
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Jul 14, 2019 21:08
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Unoriginal Name posted:If only there was a proposed free public college program that could reduce the hurdles put in place... College IS the hurdle, not access to college. A majority of people can move from high school to the work place. TrixR4kids posted:There are reasons to go to college other than getting a job afterward and I honestly don’t see how else you solve that problem. I can’t imagine it’d be legal to force employers to drop the college degree requirement for instance. Make it illegal and let the courts sort it out. At least try to solve the cause, rather than the symptom.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:20
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Lightning Knight posted:Numbers Fuckstein strikes again! I mean, treating educational history as a protected class and not allowing it to be asked in most professions would be the better solution, but the specific ask was for a more 'likely to get passed' step. Also are we literally lumping any attempt to motivate business through tax incentives as 'numbers fuckstein'? Do you think Hollywood producers just really like Georgia peaches and Vancouver weather? Unoriginal Name posted:Yeah, Walmart, Amazon and McDonalds could really use some tax breaks Walmart, Amazon, and McDonalds aren't the problem with this specific issue because they do actually hire employees without college degrees. The point is shattering the idea that a college degree is a pre-requisite for any job besides service and manual labor and enabling working class people who can't put their lives on hold to go smoke weed and play Smash in a dorm for four years to have access to a much broader range of career opportunities. Z. Autobahn fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 21:21
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If the tuition is free, will there be more incorporation of trade skill education in college? So more people will get their plumbing certification while learning about history and literature, for example?
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Jul 14, 2019 21:26
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Z. Autobahn posted:Walmart, Amazon, and McDonalds aren't the problem with this specific issue because they do actually hire employees without college degrees. The point is shattering the idea that a college degree is a pre-requisite for any job besides service and manual labor and enabling working class people who can't put their lives on hold to go smoke weed and play Smash in a dorm for four years to have access to a much broader range of career opportunities. This is an easily solved problem by offering a living wage, free education, and a stipend for those who choose to continue their education past highschool. I don't think you're going to ~free the proletariat~ by just giving capital -more- money so that they might deign to hire a plebe once every so often, op. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 21:29
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Z. Autobahn posted:I mean, treating educational history as a protected class and not allowing it to be asked in most professions would be the better solution, but the specific ask was for a more 'likely to get passed' step. Also are we literally lumping any attempt to motivate business through tax incentives as 'numbers fuckstein'? Do you think Hollywood producers just really like Georgia peaches? Me when you post plans that focus on tax incentives instead of broad structural shake ups and aggressive redistributive policies: 
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Jul 14, 2019 21:30
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Z. Autobahn posted:Walmart, Amazon, and McDonalds aren't the problem with this specific issue because they do actually hire employees without college degrees. The point is shattering the idea that a college degree is a pre-requisite for any job besides service and manual labor and enabling working class people who can't put their lives on hold to go smoke weed and play Smash in a dorm for four years to have access to a much broader range of career opportunities. I don't think you'll encourage the idea that people should be enabled in the pursuit of a livelihood they enjoy by rewarding people who treat them like drones.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:33
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lol if you're asking what radical plans I favor, I think it should be illegal to ask for educational history in most professions and most federal funding for four-year residential colleges should be redirected towards developing alternative models of higher education that are vastly more accessible from a time-commitment perspective, convey the same benefits and are 100% free. I think private colleges need to be banned and college as an institution largely dismantled. But the poster literally asked for the more incremental "likely to pass" first step which would be tax incentives. The tax incentive post wasn't my ideal plan, it was "what's a solution on this that might pass a 2020 Joe Manchin Senate". My ideal plan is to tear down the entire edifice of upper education in America from the ground up.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:36
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Z. Autobahn posted:lol if you're asking what radical plans I favor, I think it should be illegal to ask for educational history in most professions and most federal funding for four-year residential colleges should be redirected towards developing alternative models of higher education that are vastly more accessible from a time-commitment perspective, convey the same benefits and are 100% free. I think private colleges need to be banned and college as an institution largely dismantled. But the poster literally asked for the more incremental "likely to pass" first step which would be tax incentives. Normally when one puts words in quotes they are at least a paraphrase and not just completely made up.
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Jul 14, 2019 21:39
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DARPA posted:Free tuition and debt forgiveness are not transformative policies. They commit further to an employment system which demands absolutely pointless qualifications. Generic "college degree" requirements are a sexist racist way to sidestep the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Policies that entrench the existing system are making the problem worse, not better. It's the same flaw the ACA has in promoting employer controlled healthcare. bernie should apologize for offering these racist, sexist plans
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Jul 14, 2019 21:56
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A lot of research has shown that the college bonus (the amount, on average, that college graduates make more than the general population) is directly tied to how expensive and rare it is to get a college degree. Want to make it so people don't have to go to college to have a good job? Make college free 
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Jul 14, 2019 22:07
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Z. Autobahn posted:Strong tax incentives to reward employers for hiring employees without college degrees would be a start Why not just, you know, FORCE them to loving do it. Why is it always “incentives”?
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Jul 14, 2019 22:16
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