|
Isn't traveling without moving (a concept borrowed from Islamic mysticism) in Dune? The first book also states that the Guild operates on 'pure mathematics', whatever that means. Mathematics doesn't require prescience (for obvious reasons, we use maths IRL constantly). While Guild navigators might be crunching the numbers like a Mentat, the real knack is OD'ing on spice to peek ahead and make sure they crunched the right numbers.
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 22:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 16:08 |
|
|
In front of the Emperor, Paul disrobes, pulls the catheter off his penis and breaks off a chunk of poop cake and flings it at Feyd
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 22:37
|
|
|
The brown "blade" bears the poison
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 22:38
|
|
|
kiimo posted:In front of the Emperor, Paul disrobes, pulls the catheter off his penis and breaks off a chunk of poop cake and flings it at Feyd
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
I mean what would fremen underwear even look and smell like haha
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 23:03
|
|
|
The slow blade penetrates your mom
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 23:04
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:Obviously for a Fremen the razor-edged poopknife was the only permitted weapon for killing in a Kanly duel. I will bend while I break wind
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
Uncle Enzo posted:I mean what would fremen underwear even look and smell like haha I assure you that Pocahontas smelled better than Smith.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 23:32
|
|
|
Just because Pocahontas was indigenous doesn't mean she's most like the Fremen. Smith is more like the Fremen, never bathing, covering everything up, stewing in his own filth.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 23:47
|
|
|
skasion posted:Dune itself mentions absolutely gently caress all about how the mechanics of Guild ships work, and indeed deliberately glosses right over them — you never see the characters travel in space at all; in one chapter the Atreides are on Caladan and in the next they’re on Arrakis. Messiah, Children, and God Emperor all mention exactly once that Guildsmen take spice in order to steer a ship at translight speeds so called, but how the ship does that isn’t clear — the emphasis is on the Guildsman prescience making it safe to do so. The idea of “folding space” then suddenly pops up in Heretics — that’s the same year as the phrase pops up in Lynch Dune. Anyone who likes sci-fi will be the first to tell you that good sci-fi is about people - which is one of the infinite ways that Franks Failson gets it wrong. Vlex posted:Isn't traveling without moving (a concept borrowed from Islamic mysticism) in Dune? Speaking of the movie, I can't remember if I've asked this, but have any of you actually seen some of the fan-edits that've been made over the years?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2019 00:09
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:Obviously for a Fremen the razor-edged poopknife was the only permitted weapon for killing in a Kanly duel. Experimental archaeologists literally tried this, and spoiler alert, it's not possible to make a practical blade from poop. The paper is still in review AFAIK but the findings were discussed earlier this year. In the running for an Ignoble IMO  Edit: obviously the Inuit example is decadent and water-fat
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2019 17:15
|
|
|
I think you're forgetting this is futurepoop
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 11:44
|
|
|
The crysknife disolves upon death. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 13:29
|
|
|
So are Navigators also mentats, if they need to be insanely good at crunching numbers, in addition to breathing magic drugs? Theoretically, would Paul or Leto II be able to helm a Guild ship? Now that I think about it, I'm sure that bullshit happens in the prequels.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 14:25
|
|
|
There’s probably a lot of arcana involved in navigation beyond being a mentat/prescient. The fact that nobody in any of the books (except the guild obviously, but I mean any of the aristo/cultic protagonists and antagonists) seems to know anything about how guild ships really work speaks to the fact that they play very close to the chest. When the guild monopoly finally does get broken, it’s not by teaching the nobility to do navigator work — it’s by technocrats who give the nobility computers that do the work instead.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 14:38
|
|
|
I just finished re-reading Dune and it struck me at how minor a character Rabban really is. He has one scene with the Baron, and is then declared dead offhandedly.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 14:58
|
|
|
skasion posted:There’s probably a lot of arcana involved in navigation beyond being a mentat/prescient. The fact that nobody in any of the books (except the guild obviously, but I mean any of the aristo/cultic protagonists and antagonists) seems to know anything about how guild ships really work speaks to the fact that they play very close to the chest. When the guild monopoly finally does get broken, it’s not by teaching the nobility to do navigator work — it’s by technocrats who give the nobility computers that do the work instead. It seems it's about as likely that as well as the Guild being secretive, it's also literal rocket science that takes a shitload of specialised education to effectively understand anyway.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 15:19
|
|
|
Liquid Dinosaur posted:So are Navigators also mentats, if they need to be insanely good at crunching numbers, in addition to breathing magic drugs? We don't have any clue how the navigators fold space, just that they do. Mentats, however, quite clearly have the function of replacing computers for the purposes of calculation and strategy. Speaking of Dune Messiah, I'm re-reading it and came across this: Dune Messiah, page 46 of the ebook posted:She sensed the hidden perils in this gift then. This was a Tleilaxu thing. The Tleilaxu displayed adisturbing lack of inhibitions in what they created. Unbridled curiosity might guide their actions. They boasted they could make anything from the proper human raw material -- devils or saints. They sold killer-mentats. They'd produced a killer medic, overcoming the Suk inhibitions against the taking of human life to do it. Their wares included willing menials, pliant sex toys for any whim, soldiers, generals,philosophers, even an occasional moralist. If so, it sort of gives some weight to the idea I've often had that the Tleilaxu were behind the facedancers from the Scattering, and that they were the ones playing the game of feints within feints within feints.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 15:26
|
|
|
I don't know about them creating Yueh and I don't remember any specific implications that they did, but something from the later novels where Waff and then Scytale just offhandedly say, "oh, you sought we kwisatz haderach? Yeah, we made one of those. He went insane and killed himself." Like it's nothing. Lots of weird stuff just popped up in later novels.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 15:58
|
|
|
Jesus In A Can posted:I don't know about them creating Yueh and I don't remember any specific implications that they did, but something from the later novels where Waff and then Scytale just offhandedly say, "oh, you sought we kwisatz haderach? Yeah, we made one of those. He went insane and killed himself." Like it's nothing. "Dune Messiah, a few pages earlier than the quote in my last post posted:"Because we once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale said. With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him. "You didn't tell us that!" she accused. "You didn't ask," Scytale said. "How did you overcome your kwisatz haderach?" Irulan asked. "A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation," Scytale said. "I do not understand," Edric ventured. "He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jul 15, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:04
|
|
|
D. Ebdrup posted:Doesn't this strongly imply that the Tleilaxu created Dr. Yueh? No, it strongly implies that they also discovered the way (or another way) to subvert Suk conditioning.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:04
|
|
|
yawn, one shortening of the way, no biggie, just a side project hey y'all heard about the new midgets coming out this year?! they got whistle-hypnotism!!
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:06
|
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:No, it strongly implies that they also discovered the way (or another way) to subvert Suk conditioning. Doc Hawkins posted:yawn, one shortening of the way, no biggie, just a side project
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:07
|
|
|
I would like to know more about this Suk conditioning 
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:12
|
|
|
D. Ebdrup posted:Hmm, maybe. I still think there's something quite appealing about having the Tleilax turn out to be the secret story tellers and heroes of the story in the 7th book that never got written. I don't like the tleilax enough to agree. I also don't want to shut down the idea, but don't Fritz and Maury (I forget their names) explicitly make fun of the masters who created them for not expecting them, and furthermore being shocked that command language no longer works on them?
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:18
|
|
|
free hubcaps posted:I picked up a copy of The Dragon in the Sea at the local used book store, is it any good? there’s not enough nautical sf in the world imo Dragon in the Sea, Hellstrom's Hive, Destination: Void, Green Brain, Whipping Star, and Dosadi Experiment are all superb novels. Personally, I'd rather have had 4 more Dosadi books and had the Dune series end after Messiah, but we're in the bad timeline so we got what we got.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 16:39
|
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:I don't like the tleilax enough to agree. I also don't want to shut down the idea, but don't Fritz and Maury (I forget their names) explicitly make fun of the masters who created them for not expecting them, and furthermore being shocked that command language no longer works on them? Let me correct myself then; I like the idea of the facedancers getting rid of their masters, and being the secret heroes - it even goes well with the original concept for Dune, namely that humans should have neither masters nor demagogues, as it makes the whole story about facedancers getting their freedom.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 17:24
|
|
|
Oh, now I agree, their implied transcendence is cool. I do like them as successors to humanity, people who are able to retain a plural mental identity, unlike the failed kwisatz haderach. And we never see them do (or even think?) anything bad. But the ending of chapterhouse seems to suggest that their prescience (or prescience-like ability to know what people are doing across the galaxy) is something we should fear, and perhaps feel stifled by. I am pretty sure it's supposed to be good that Duncan escapes their "grasp."
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 21:09
|
|
|
Liquid Dinosaur posted:So are Navigators also mentats, if they need to be insanely good at crunching numbers, in addition to breathing magic drugs? I could be wrong but I don't think mentats are really defined much by their use of spice, but rather their abilities are more of a institutional conditioning work-around. Navigators otoh are completely spice-drunk. basically two different methods for reaching the same goal of situational predetermination. The big deal about Paul is that he ends up being the right combination of so many different specialties: politically trained and raised, a couple generations shy of a longstanding breeding program goal, bene gesserit and mentat trade secrets, introduced to Fremen secret sauce mysticism, and then undergoing rapid guild-level spice immersion. Mouse Of All Trades.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:25
|
|
|
Doc Hawkins posted:Oh, now I agree, their implied transcendence is cool. I do like them as successors to humanity, people who are able to retain a plural mental identity, unlike the failed kwisatz haderach. And we never see them do (or even think?) anything bad. That was certainly the feeling I got. There's a lot of speculation, a lot of fan theories, but that's just because they're in the last little vignette in the book. Whatever they are, they are predatory.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:26
|
|
|
I mean, we've seen them turn women into axlotyl tanks, if we're counting "bad" things.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
I don't know why people assume Daniel and Marty are face dancers. I don't remember the book saying that. It seems like the Scattering produced all kinds of weird humanity and maybe they're something else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:33
|
|
|
They say they’re face dancers.quote:“What would you have said to the Master, anyway?” Daniel asked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:44
|
|
|
It's probably the part where the book says it.quote:Daniel chuckled. "That would've been funny. They have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them." "I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and . . ." e: kull wahad!
|
|
#
?
Jul 15, 2019 22:47
|
|
|
Well, that's that then.
|
|
#
?
Jul 16, 2019 02:56
|
|
|
BeanpolePeckerwood posted:I could be wrong but I don't think mentats are really defined much by their use of spice, but rather their abilities are more of a institutional conditioning work-around. Navigators otoh are completely spice-drunk. basically two different methods for reaching the same goal of situational predetermination. It was my impression that the guild specializes in being able to parallel process probabilities with such accuracy that they see the proper safe path to take and more importantly when to take it - mentats crunch data without any further specialization.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 20:58
|
|
|
ilovebeersooomuch posted:It was my impression that the guild specializes in being able to parallel process probabilities with such accuracy that they see the proper safe path to take and more importantly when to take it - mentats crunch data without any further specialization.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 21:57
|
|
|
Nessus posted:They seemed to be unrelated things. The mentats take spice like anyone else for their good health, since spice seems to be good for you. (Piter eats a shitload of it because he's a weirdo, it clearly does him no favors.) The navigators go hog wild and learn how to use their tripping balls to foresee the path the heighliner must take. Yes, I didn’t mean to imply anyone that eats spice becomes prescient. I meant that the guild uses spice for forced evolution and the ability to see probabilities with such accuracy it’s the future. Mentats can grind through whatever calculations are required for the task at handwithout requiring spice to do so. quote:Imagine training new Navigators while they're all hosed up on melange! Then again perhaps if they can see the past, they can just go watch the same lectures... loving lol I never thought of that. Like the most expensive TiVO ever
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2019 02:17
|
|
|
Earlier in the thread someone talked about a scene in Dune Messiah that was printed in some versions but not in others, something about a historian being tortured? I just finished re-reading my copy, there definitely wasn't a scene like that in mine. What editions had that scene?
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2019 03:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 16:08 |
|
|
Super Waffle posted:Earlier in the thread someone talked about a scene in Dune Messiah that was printed in some versions but not in others, something about a historian being tortured? I just finished re-reading my copy, there definitely wasn't a scene like that in mine. What editions had that scene? I've just got the Ace paperbacks, but it's definitely in there. It's a prologue.
|
|
#
?
Jul 18, 2019 03:14
|
|