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I’m not a controller but I do fly out of Boeing Field and the FAA has the “careless and reckless” clause for stuff like this. What they did was absolute insanity given the airspace constraints that exist at BFI.
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Jul 11, 2019 18:36
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What a clusterfuck. DISCLAIMER: I AM A CENTER CONTROLLER AND HAVE NEVER LOOKED OUT A WINDOW, but holy gently caress. Dude at BFI just hugs that airplane instead of pointing him east, telling him to climb VFR and putting him on approach. That said, the flight crew failed to communicate at just about every point. If you're going to loving GREECE, you might want to depart IFR, and ask (very) nicely for the scenic tour of Seattle on the departure. Or let them know that you're going to depart VFR to do that, and pick up the IFR flight plan later. Airborne IFR pickups and even pop-up IFR is not a big deal in the center environment, we do it all the time. The only time it's a no-no is when you depart VFR to evade a flow control program into your destination and try to pick up IFR in the air. In that situation we very cheerfully outline all the other beautiful destinations you can land at. This is not going to be an issue going international. Honestly all he had to do was request a VFR departure to the east, and wait to talk to someone with more than three miles of airspace to play with.
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Jul 11, 2019 19:31
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The problem is that he can’t go east. Due east is Renton’s airspace up to 2500’, and class B between 2k and 3k base- tops 10k. What he ended up doing put him in a place where TRACON is used to working departures out of BFI given the prevailing traffic flow. Had that Global gone northeast, he also probably wouldn’t have been able to climb at all for awhile due to traffic on SeaTac’s downwind between 3k and 7k. Disclaimer- not a controller, not even flying jets, just fly IFR in that particular area a lot. E: he did contact TRACON while still in BFI’s airspace and started hassling Tower to give him their vectors, which lol a patagonian cavy fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 20:15
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BFI and Seattle are located and laid out so that there's lots of ways to have airplanes from BFI and SEA conflicting with each other. Since Vistajet departed off runway 32 while SEA had south flow, his intended departure path conflicts with SEA departures and arrivals on the downwind, so I'm guessing he just figured he'd pick up the clearance in the air and didn't realize how boxed in BFI really is with Renton and the departure/arrival paths at SEA.
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Jul 15, 2019 04:11
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azflyboy posted:BFI and Seattle are located and laid out so that there's lots of ways to have airplanes from BFI and SEA conflicting with each other. Thing is, he initially asked for closed traffic. Had he been attempting to depart airspace, they never would have given him opposite direction. There's really a ton I don't understand about what happened.
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Jul 15, 2019 05:31
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The YouTube clip doesn't have his initial call to Boeing clearance or ground, so I'm curious if there was a complete misunderstanding between what the pilot thought he requested versus what ATC thought he wanted (staying in the pattern for a landing versus departing from the pattern), or if it was an attempt at avoiding a hold for release or something. Either way, it's completely bizarre. azflyboy fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Jul 15, 2019 |
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Jul 15, 2019 12:12
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There aren't normally long holds for release when the area is south flow, unless IFR traffic is flying into/out of Renton (because the departure/missed approach out of Renton and Boeing's departure intersect). Additionally, the only time they give people EDCT is for airports in the USA, to the best of my knowledge. I only know that they asked for closed traffic because a copy of the recording including Ground got posted on a local Facebook group. The only thing I can possibly think of is that the rich guy in the back wanted to see downtown Seattle before going to Athens and this is the insane way that the crew figured out how to accommodate it. People in Youtube comments (I know, I know) are convinced that 14R had obstacles in the departure corridor so they needed 32L. It's bullshit, the RNAV 14R DP requires 507'/nm to 700'MSL and the RNAV DP for 32L requires 425'/nm to 1400. Neither would give a jet any issue. 32L does have a longer published ASDA but it's 10,000' versus 14R's 9120'. All other published takeoff distances remain identical- the full 10,000' of the runway.
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Jul 15, 2019 17:11
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I poked around at work and asked some acquaintances; Rumor mill says he asked for his clearance on the ground and was given a Seven Hour delay to release time. Thats... There is no realistic reason for that. None. Zero.
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Jul 15, 2019 17:25
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I feel like that would have to be someone somewhere confusing local and Zulu time, Seattle being -7UTC and all. It would be completely hilarious if this was all the result of someone throwing a fit over missing that though.
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Jul 15, 2019 17:55
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That's hilariously probable. I'm not a controller (I just drive the bus), but I don't think I've ever heard a long haul flight get anything near that much of a delay, so "confuses time zone, thinks 20 minute delay is 7:20" seems like the best alternative to "crew had no idea what they were doing" or "crew were deliberately being dicks"
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Jul 16, 2019 00:33
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Anyone have a unique or awesome break room at work? Our Local wants to update ours beyond just a TV and some sofas. We were thinking of putting in a few videogame stations for starters but I'm curious if your facility has done anything similar or beyond that. Post pics if you can.
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Jul 17, 2019 12:39
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We don’t have a break room. I hear tech-ops’ recreation floor is really nice though.
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Jul 17, 2019 13:50
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MrYenko posted:I poked around at work and asked some acquaintances; Rumor mill says he asked for his clearance on the ground and was given a Seven Hour delay to release time. From one of the online aviation fora and people going back and finding the liveatc recordings it appears they couldn't depart on the active departure runway because of weight/performance/obstacle reasons and were told the only way they could depart the other way was VFR and picking up IFR in the air. And there was confusion between Ground and the jet over the intent: quote:08:58 BFI GND: ... you want to do a VFR pattern and then depart IFR Apparently Ground thought they just wanted to burn off some fuel before doing a normal IFR departure? And Vistajet thought the VFR thing was a formality and they'd get the IFR shortly after takeoff. I also don't think they realized or looked particularly hard at the VFR environment they were agreeing to enter. And who knows what the Ground controller told Tower.
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Jul 17, 2019 14:50
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MrYenko posted:We don’t have a break room. The differences between natca areas in facilities is pretty nuts. ZKC has a closet with some computers and a TV. ZDV has an entire wing of the building.
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Jul 17, 2019 17:07
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fknlo posted:The differences between natca areas in facilities is pretty nuts. ZKC has a closet with some computers and a TV. ZDV has an entire wing of the building. Any idea what they put in that wing for the members? TVs, videogames? DVD library?
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Jul 17, 2019 18:50
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Question from a student pilot: I was flying the pattern yesterday. "1234Z, extend downwind, I'll call your base." "you call my base, 1234Z" flew for 15-20 seconds "34Z, cleared for options runway 30." "cleared for option 30, 34Z." Then I paused and thought for a second -- okay, he did clear me, but he didn't explicitly approve a base turn, and this is still a pretty short downwind. I don't want to violate an order. "Tower, verify base turn approved, 34Z" (with attitude) "34Z I already cleared you!" "Roger, turning base." No big deal after that but I was curious and can't find a specific page in the FAR/AIM about it. It makes sense that if you're Cleared To Land and you're not behind anyone else, you have authority to turn when you see fit. But tower did say he'd call base and then did not do so, or retract that order. Does a Cleared To Land (#1) supersede other directions automatically, or is the tower supposed to explicitly retract/deactivate/whatever any other orders if they're no longer relevant? Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Jul 19, 2019 |
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Jul 19, 2019 00:33
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TheHouseofM posted:Any idea what they put in that wing for the members? TVs, videogames? DVD library? Here at ZDV there's a big room with some chairs and couches and a TV, there's another room that has a foosball table and I think some video game consoles some people have brought in, and another room with a bunch of computers in it. At ZKC there's the closet with some computers and a TV in it as well as the office of the facrep all in one tiny little space.
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Jul 19, 2019 00:50
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Sagebrush posted:"Tower, verify base turn approved, 34Z" You were right, guy was a dick, there's no piece of protocol that implies a landing clearance stands in place of a "I'll call your base"
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Jul 19, 2019 06:26
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My understanding is that in the US, you can be cleared to land before the runway is clear (meaning someone could still land or take off ahead of you) so without knowing the full extent of what’s going on, I agree with vessbot that the landing clearance would not constitute being told to turn base. They could still, for example, want you to extend downwind to allow for a departure or the use of an intersecting runway, even if you’re #1 to land. In Canada, clearance to land is given only when the runway is clear and the aircraft cleared to land will be the next aircraft using that runway, so in that case a clearance to land would imply that you could turn base. ATC sometimes makes mistakes just like anyone else, and the fact that they are upset they didn’t say the thing they meant to say is not a reflection on the pilot. Good controllers will recognize this, but sometimes under stress they react less than ideally. One time I got yelled at for not exiting onto an intersecting runway because, although I was told to exit as soon as able, the instruction didn’t include “exit runway 08” and thus I didn’t have clearance to use that runway. The fact that the controller may have wanted to issue that instruction, but didn’t, is not my problem.
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Jul 19, 2019 15:04
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My old facility has a tradition of lovely sups that shouldn't be in the agency. They have a tendency to get checked out on their currency sectors without any real recommendations and all that. They have a new one and he got this glowing training report:quote:Mr. X is an Anchor. Strong and heavy, sinks rapidly on demand, not easily swayed. He will soon make an excellent Supervisor, a real steady ship! 
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Jul 19, 2019 15:14
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PT6A posted:My understanding is that in the US, you can be cleared to land before the runway is clear (meaning someone could still land or take off ahead of you) so without knowing the full extent of what’s going on, I agree with vessbot that the landing clearance would not constitute being told to turn base. They could still, for example, want you to extend downwind to allow for a departure or the use of an intersecting runway, even if you’re #1 to land. Yeah, I regularly receive a landing clearance while there are several people ahead of me. I'll be on downwind, there's somebody turning base, somebody on final, and another plane in its takeoff roll, and "34Z cleared for options runway 30 number three behind the Decathlon." Obviously I can't just turn and make a short approach or whatever in that situation so it seems like following all ATC commands unless they're explicitly cancelled is the right move. I don't know how you'd make general aviation work here (bay area) under those Canadian rules. At PAO, which is usually a shitshow because it has a single 2400' runway and like half the GA traffic in the area, I've been number 6 to land, I've been told to make a 360 while on short final, I'm regularly extended into the Moffett Field airspace (another thing that makes me a little skeeved out because the controllers usually don't mention it -- they're just on the phone with NUQ behind the scenes apparently) and every other call ends "with no delay." In Canada, how close do they let you get to the airport without a clearance, then? Does everyone just get stuck on downwind until the one guy who's cleared has completed his base and final? Do you get the clearance as you're on final approach, preparing for a go-around in case you don't get it?
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Jul 19, 2019 17:00
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Sagebrush posted:
When I fly into Canada, they normally word it as something like "Callsign 1234, proceed zero eight right, you're number two", with the landing clearance being issued when the runway is actually clear. The closest I've been before they issued the clearance was about a two mile final (in an airplane with an approach speed around 120kts) but I don't know how close the controllers are actually allowed to cut it.
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Jul 19, 2019 20:13
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Sagebrush posted:In Canada, how close do they let you get to the airport without a clearance, then? Does everyone just get stuck on downwind until the one guy who's cleared has completed his base and final? Do you get the clearance as you're on final approach, preparing for a go-around in case you don't get it? Everything here is basically the same as what you describe, we get our sequence when the controller knows what it will be, then we follow our assigned traffic, and we receive actual landing clearance once the runway is clear. As to how close you can cut it, I've seen "over the threshold," which frankly I'm not sure is proper, but often in such a case they will tell you "expect clearance on short final, traffic exiting" or something like that. That would probably not happen outside a VFR GA situation, though. On the other hand, if you're the only one in the circuit and there's no planes nearing takeoff, they'll clear you to land as soon as you call downwind.
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Jul 19, 2019 21:36
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They made some changes to NCEPT and loving  going anywhere on an ERR now. It's supposed to be temporary and this might change a bit when the priority placement tool comes out before the next panel but there are only eleven facilities eligible to pick up people right now. BOS, C90, CVG, DCA, JFK, LGA, MIC, NCT, ORD, P50, ZUA. I was hoping there would be better news than that, hopefully I'll get picked up on the TMU bid I just put in for or I might start looking at trying to hardship to help take care of my feeble old grandmother. It's pretty impressive how badly they've hosed this up.
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Jul 24, 2019 05:21
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fknlo posted:They made some changes to NCEPT and loving FAA hiring is a dumpster fire, and has been for a long time. What really pisses me off is that NATCA National isn’t crossing their arms and telling the FAA to get hosed.
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Jul 24, 2019 18:44
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Just did a 3 hour session on my Sunday and they're trying to hold me for 2 more hours. I told them I'm too loving fatigued. I'm taking a 15 minute break and then staying an extra 45 minutes before I go the gently caress home. I'm not gonna work any more evening overtime. This poo poo is not sustainable.
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Jul 25, 2019 04:01
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NavCanada is in the same boat. Apparently the ideal time to hire and train more people is before you desperately need them, who would've guessed???
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Jul 25, 2019 05:02
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8 sick hits for my area today. Another area is down to 5 or 6 people tonight. Safety was never compromised!
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Aug 10, 2019 21:09
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I just had an OM threaten to write me up, then deny me union representation, and then step into my personal space and put his nose maybe 4-6 inches to mine while trying to physically intimidate me. Ask me anything. 
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Aug 19, 2019 15:30
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Why was an OM even talking to you?
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Aug 19, 2019 15:43
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The Ferret King posted:Why was an OM even talking to you? I said gently caress, apparently.
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Aug 19, 2019 15:51
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Well gently caress...
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Aug 19, 2019 15:54
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MrYenko posted:I said gently caress, apparently. Holy poo poo I'd be in a lot of trouble if that was a thing anywhere I've ever been, ever. Did you at least say it on the frequency to elicit that kind of shithead power tripping response? That's some ladder climbing FLM kind of poo poo, why the hell does the OM care?
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Aug 20, 2019 01:33
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I’be read about 90% of this thread and am just a curious lurker but have a few questions I look at Flightradar24 a lot and there are countries I have rarely if ever seen an airliner cross. Yemen, North Korea, Libya come to mind. Is it that they don’t have acceptable ATC standards? Also, if you’ve seen Breaking Bad, is the sequence with the ATC guy monitoring his flights realistic?
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Aug 20, 2019 07:28
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Keith Atherton posted:I have rarely if ever seen an airliner cross. Yemen, North Korea, Libya I think if you think about it hard enough, youll come up with an answer on your own on those 3. edit: I looked up the wording because it amuses me, 'Exercise caution during flight operations due to the possibility of interruptions to international air traffic due to heightened military activities and increased political tensions in the region.' Blackchamber fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 16:00
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fknlo posted:Holy poo poo I'd be in a lot of trouble if that was a thing anywhere I've ever been, ever. Did you at least say it on the frequency to elicit that kind of shithead power tripping response? That's some ladder climbing FLM kind of poo poo, why the hell does the OM care? I said “I shouldn’t have to walk to TMU every time the loving airspace goes active” as I walked past the OM’s desk. gently caress ZMA with a rake is what I’m trying to say. Keith Atherton posted:Also, if you’ve seen Breaking Bad, is the sequence with the ATC guy monitoring his flights realistic? It’s a mixture of obviously having a technical advisor onboard, but then pointedly ignoring him for some things. De Lancie’s phraesology is mostly by-the-book, but it’s clear that he doesn’t actually do it for a living. Like, he’s supposed to be under extreme stress, but he mostly just sounds like he’s never done it before. The scope they show (briefly) nails the old host UI, and has perfect datablocks, but it’s shrunk to fit on a regular monitor, and they must’ve reverse engineered it from stills, because the target symbology is wrong. The targets have leader lines on them, but move backwards as if the leader lines are history lines, and we don’t have a radar sweep like is shown. Also the scope has way too many colors for host. Bubbles (the 5 mile ring around an airplane that you can toggle on and off) don’t dramatically change color when two get close, and host was nearly monochrome other than the yellow targets and datablocks. Also you generally just put a bubble on one of them... It’s not horrible. Conversely, the most accurate part of Pushing Tin is everyone going in groups to get lunch or coffee.
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Aug 20, 2019 17:48
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MrYenko posted:I just had an OM threaten to write me up, then deny me union representation, and then step into my personal space and put his nose maybe 4-6 inches to mine while trying to physically intimidate me. And he can just get away with that behavior? I work a non atc job in public sector but if a boss did that to me I'd have grounds for a grievance.
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Aug 20, 2019 22:44
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Our pattern has been closed essentially every day this whole summer from the time the tower opens until noon because the tower is reportedly understaffed. Between the winds and the fog, 9am to noon is the best time to fly around here and it's quite frustrating to all the flight school instructors that the pattern opens up right in time for them to send students out into like 17G25. I know everyone keeps having rumblings about an upcoming pilot shortage; is there an ATC shortage as well?
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Aug 20, 2019 23:42
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The Real Amethyst posted:And he can just get away with that behavior? Maybe? There was an OM at my last facility that "knocked over one of the small tables in the area in a fit of anger" and he may have gotten in some actual trouble over it. I'd personally be too traumatized to work at the same time as that person out of fear for my safety, especially if there were witnesses. Sagebrush posted:is there an ATC shortage as well? Yes.
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Aug 21, 2019 01:34
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Sagebrush posted:is there an ATC shortage as well? Yeah but it's not caused by a lack of candidates, but more by the FAA's inability to hire anyone without literally tripping over their own dick.
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Aug 21, 2019 05:18
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