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drat, Khaireddin the Great seems cool - inspiring, learned, evidently a friend to all People of the Book, and yoked. And he's gay too! Clearly the forces that shape this universe have spoken: If you're going to be remembered as one of the great leaders of the middle ages, You Gotta Be Gay
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Jul 12, 2019 21:32
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Perhaps JK Rowling is editing the history books in this one.
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Jul 13, 2019 09:27
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nvm ignore this
Kangxi fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 13:08
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Kangxi posted:nvm ignore this Make me!
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Jul 14, 2019 17:33
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Just a big fat dumb fellow who likes chess and pickled boars heads. Nice ruler.
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Jul 14, 2019 17:55
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Chapter 17: 1000 to 1011 - Tsenpo Purgyal Sumnang 'The Sword of Shinje' A selection from The Memoirs of Gierjïhæi:   My husband the emperor then developed an interest in finding rare and valuable artifacts, to demonstrate his prestige and wealth. He spent considerable sums and had the abilities of many learned people devoted to this task.  Despite his devotion to pleasure, he was not so bad a ruler; he was able to flatter and soothe the other lords and avoid misunderstandings.  In his later years, however, he became too attached to wines and other spirits. Drinking did not overpower him, really, he surrendered himself to it. He attended council meetings as drunk as mud. He was able to talk to people even as he was red in the face, but other work was becoming too much.  It had started to destroy his body,  And his own devoted siblings tried to get him to stop.  He failed in this.  Where he was no longer capable of fulfilling all of the tasks of being an emperor, I was able to step in and remove some of the burdens from his shoulders. I was able to use the imperial seal and send a skilled general to aid my family back home. I could not commandeer an army but this was a start.  I was able to appoint a major vassal to the ruling council. She was happy to take on this additional responsibility.  And considering the treasury was full anyway, I had ordered an expansion of the academy founded by the great Gyalyum a century ago. I was able to buy books cheaply and have them sent here; and enough might be saved from the fires of civil war.   Scholars made their way to our court to seek refuge from disaster. Our court is better now that we are surrounded by so many learned men.  Rebellions broke out in both the north and south, signal beacons were lit from all sides.   I am grateful that our armies were victorious, in both the north,  And in the south.  The celestial kingdom alone was not unstable, but also the wild north - the great tribal confederation had broken up into several smaller warring clans.  I had pressed for an invasion of the lands to our immediate north so that we might recover some part of the old empire that had broken away.  Relations with my husband the emperor were not calm. He had made some crude comment about my wanting to take over, and I shouted at him. I said harsh words, and called him dissolute and unrestrained, and said that he would trade away a fur coat and jewels for a jug of wine. No one else in court willing to say anything. I do not know if this was ever written about.  The war went ahead. Neither myself nor the emperor were commanding the armies - he could not always stay on a horse, and I had to stay close to him and prevent him from doing anything foolish. Through letters, I knew that the army first marched to Jiuquan.  The city was liberated quickly.  After that, the northerners had invaded our lands and become trapped near a stretch of harsh land.  Ruin came to them too.  Anxi and the northern pass of Yangguan fell quickly. Our armies came upon them like a thunderbolt.  It was around this time that I had received the news from a messenger at court. The Jin Dynasty had fallen after one century in power. Zhongdu had fallen. My sister, the emperor of China, had vanished. We were all swept across the earth. The poet Wang Wei said that "out west, past Yangguan, there are no old friends here". I had seen nothing of my family or of the old life in court since I had left them as a young girl decades ago, and now they are all gone. I do not know what my sister had done to have all of the empire rise up against her and overthrow her, but she was still my family. I followed the rites and buried a broken sword in the yards, for where she had gone she would need no more swords.  We heard reports of one small group of Jurchens approach Tibet from the northeast, allegedly led by Hubosu - my nephew, my sister's oldest son. They were hostile to us, and burning villages and stealing barley and animals. I do not know what could have possessed him to do such a thing. Did he think we were hostile? Did he want to carry out revenge after our inaction? Did he want to overthrow us and install the dynasty in our place? I do not know.  The lands around Jiuquan were safely ours, and I was able to command the army to meet up with the new threat.  The lord of Jiuquan had lost his authority and the peoples to his west ruled themselves.  I had ordered my army to pursue.  But the Jurchens were faster, well-trained and skilled with feats on horseback. Even here, in this mountainous land.  From Jiuquan, they were able to go as far south as Qamdo without resistance, and I had to muster another army in the south to have any chance of catching them.  Then they had tried to bolt north to Zadoi.  But it was too late, too late.  Two thousand. X In vain I tried to curb them, to slacken the swift pace: The spirits soared high up, far into the distance. We played the Nine Songs and danced the Shao Dances, Borrowing the time to make a holiday. But when I had ascended the splendour of the heavens, I suddenly caught a glimpse below of my old home. My groom’s heart was heavy and the horses for longing Arched their heads back and refused to go on. Enough! There are no true men in the state: no one understands me. Why should I cleave to the city of my birth? Since none is worthy to work with in making good government, I shall go and join Peng Xian in the place where he abides." -Li Sao, attributed to Qu Yuan (trans. David Hawkes) X  My husband, the emperor, resumed his searches for artifacts and other treasures.   I was able to push for a reorganization of the lands to the distant west, and to clearly define the limits of administration.  With my writing and revisions, the imperial decrees began to assume a kind of consistency.  My husband the emperor began to stay at home more, and avoid excess frivolity.  He was at last able to reconcile with his brother.  He grew tired and bloated, and he coughed violently.  He arranged his affairs and revised the details of his inheritance.  My husband, the emperor of Tibet, died on March 1011, after a reign of thirty-six years, the longest since Gyalyum, the Restorer of the Empire. He married a noblewoman from the great Jin, who shall be called a great and learned queen. Great buildings date from his time. His land, it may be said, took in the starving, the desperate, and the wanderer. His children were happy and able. It may be said that his era was a reign of prosperity and peace for many, and when scholars read the histories about it, they will think better of it than when I lived through it. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Jul 14, 2019 |
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Jul 14, 2019 19:37
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Aw man. 
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Jul 14, 2019 19:47
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May the Empress find peace.
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Jul 15, 2019 05:56
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And now to see how the new dynasty regards Tibet. Certainly will be great when we're strong enough to conquer them. Perhaps what we need is more Indian vassals to provide us with warm bodies to throw at the Chinese doomstacks?
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Jul 15, 2019 06:21
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The Sandman posted:And now to see how the new dynasty regards Tibet. India nothing, to fight china in CK2 at minimum you need all of india, tibet, transoxania and persia, probably also syria and egypt, just to be safe.
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Jul 15, 2019 06:27
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I managed it with just India and Tibet, but China wasn't in a Golden Age tbf.
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Jul 15, 2019 07:03
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Interlude Miao Guicong (缪龜從) (c. 970 - mid 11th century(?) ) was a writer, poet, and exile, most notable for his memoirs of the fall of the Jin Dynasty in the 11th century and of his journeys through Tibet and northern India. The following selection of his work, A Guide to Travellers, is subject to varying interpretations. We present the text of this chapter in full here. ================================= Tubo, at this time, is a large and prosperous kingdom. Though much of it is empty, save for sand dunes and mountains, the cities in the south and along the Tarim Basin grew more prosperous with each passing day. The imperial capital, called Lhasa, is vast. Waves of new residents had settled outside of the city's old ramparts. The buildings and people had the appearance of animals huddled around a fire, as many buildings were placed in a single valley, and the streets were narrow and crowded. The city is a center of trade and entertainment, and many fine diversions could be found there. Many languages were spoken there - Tibetan, Tangut, Mongolian, Tocharian, Persian, Arabic, Kyrgyz, Nepalese, Kashmiri, Assamese, Sanskrit. I often went to visit the markets and purchase rare and curious goods. I often had a problem with spending too much on books and curiosities and not enough on food and clothing, so I tutored the children of nobility in the classics and esoteric arts to earn extra money. On one of these visits, I saw a woman of such an unsettling and bizarre appearance that I could not but stare. She was much taller than the Tibetans and myself, and she might have been as tall as I had heard the great Gyalyum was. She had red hair and green eyes like crude jade, and I had at first assumed she was some kind of demon or apparition. I looked at her stand and saw she was a weaver by trade. Her wares were strange heavy fabrics with unusual patterns, like snakes, intertwined, or like old rocks broken open to see the layers, or branches of old trees. "Do you know who I am?" she said in a flat and slow Arabic. I knew some Arabic from the merchants who often came to our southern cities. "Am I supposed to know that, ma'am?" She smiled then, but the barest hint of a smile. "I am from a land that is now in the past. I have seen might become your future." I turned my head. "I do not understand. I am a writer and a calligrapher, but have no skill in riddles." "This is no riddle. I am in Lhasa because I choose to live according to the truth." "And what is that truth, ma'am?" She looked at me, and I felt pitiless and small as she did. "I will show you. If you promise to write it in a book of yours and tell everyone you know." I said I would. She beckoned her assistant, a bulky Persian man, to watch her wares. She told me to follow. I was taken to a dark and narrow alley, and I wondered if I was about to be attacked by thieves. She opened a door to a room in a little wooden building, one almost ignored between the larger and finer houses around it, and I, a trusting fool, entered. The little room was piled high with objects of whose kind or manufacture I had never before seen in my life, things that I could not begin to describe. Thick stacks of paper, bound in metal. These were books, all in languages I do not know. More strange fabrics, which felt and handled roughly, not like silk or cotton. Little sculptures in metal or wood. A portrait, wreathed in gold, of a bearded man who stared at me with a forbidding gaze.  She breathed out, took my hands in hers, and said: "There were people who came from across the western sea. They spoke no language I have heard before or since. None I have ever heard in my journey east."  "They took land in the south, of the Moors."  "They invaded my home."  "They took the cities and monasteries of my home and burned them.  They went every way, as fast as the winds.  The greatest kingdoms of the south were defeated by them.  We united with our foes, in one last alliance to drive them back across the sea.  But plagues of all kinds came with them, and our armies died in the fields and in their tents. The people in the cities died in the streets, and their bodies were not buried.  They advanced and none of us could stop them. The soldiers and knights were cut down like a scythe through dry grass.  We are all gone now. I tell you, everything is gone.  No city, nothing holy, nothing sacred, was spared. "I may live here in peace, as far away from them as I can go, and then I shall die. I had once wished that I had died with everyone else in my village, but now I realize that I shall live to tell others of this and warn them that they might live." That was all she told me. Kangxi fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 16, 2019 06:11
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nice Haven't seen that expansion show up to an LP in quite a long time.
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Jul 16, 2019 06:29
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 Looking forward to Mesoamerica Universalis
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Jul 16, 2019 07:03
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Our only hopes lie in the Tarascans. Or maybe the Mayans.
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Jul 16, 2019 07:24
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This is magical. 
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Jul 16, 2019 08:18
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YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS! Haha, FINALLY! FINALLY a Paradox mega-campaign that has the Sunset Invasion turned ON! Too many people leave it off, but they don’t know what they’re missing! Oh I cannot WAIT for you to convert to EU4! Backup this save file, NOW. Multiple times if that’s what it takes! Oh boy oh boy oh boy. This is gonna be good!
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Jul 16, 2019 08:33
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HereticMIND posted:YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSS! Haha, FINALLY! FINALLY a Paradox mega-campaign that has the Sunset Invasion turned ON! Too many people leave it off, but they don’t know what they’re missing! I can't stand it most of the time because the base scenario Paradox provides barely gives a nod to world-building beyond some lost Norseman if I recall. Course Kangxi strikes me as up to the task of doing the world-building to make that not make my pedantic rear end scream about that sort of thing.
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Jul 16, 2019 09:14
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Imperial Tibet vs. Imperial Mexico
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Jul 16, 2019 09:26
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Imperial Mexico in this case would most likely be a successful Toltec empire - the Aztec/Nahua didn't get bit until the 14th and 15th centuries. Similarly, their great foes wouldn't be the Inca, but rather an alliance of regional powers such as the Tiwanaku and Chimu. I'll nerd out about all those later-on though, I guess. Because hell yeah, Sunset Invasion. One of my favourite DLC in CK2, bar none. This is gonna be good.
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Jul 16, 2019 12:27
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I don't know if we'll get our chance to play with them though. The Aztecs tend to win big then fragment and melt away over time.
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Jul 16, 2019 15:34
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I will forever agitate for the tarascans. Or failing that, the maya.
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Jul 16, 2019 16:04
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I love the Sunset Invasion. I pretty much never play a game without it, because otherwise I'm generally stuck with the BBB slowly sucking the interestingness out of western Europe. Plus, who doesn't love some human sacrifice?
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Jul 16, 2019 18:40
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First one since Flamboyant Schemers, isn't it? I love seeing the Sunset Invasion from all the way over in Tibet, with only a faint awareness of what's going on in the distant west. (Such as Sweden having the rest of the British isles.)
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Jul 16, 2019 19:01
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Yeah, I don't think we've gotten to see what's up in Europe- the closest we've come is Anatolia.
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Jul 16, 2019 19:03
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Lynneth posted:Imperial Mexico in this case would most likely be a successful Toltec empire - the Aztec/Nahua didn't get bit until the 14th and 15th centuries. If we have any say in the set up for EU4, I propose that instead of a monolithic and huge Inca Empire we get a loose confederacy of kingdoms, like the HRE. In our timeline the Incas were most likely aymara (there's a theory that the ruling houses -panacas- spoke an aymaran language between them) lording over a vast, recently conquered/vassalized quechua and aymara territory. For this scenario we can have that the eurasian plague still wrecks Cusco and gives the regional powers more autonomy. I think this will give the are more dinamism, variety and intercontinental colonial situations. Also, if we are playing with the Sunset Invasion notion, please, let's have Naylamp as a leader of an advanced polynesian empire https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naylamp
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Jul 16, 2019 19:34
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It's all fun and games escaping to Lhasa until a new foreign invader gains the Dragon throne...
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Jul 16, 2019 20:48
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Just wait until Miao Guicong meets a Japanese exile talking about a "sunrise invasion" of East Asia by the People of Gold and Silver.
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Jul 16, 2019 21:00
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Lynneth posted:Imperial Mexico in this case would most likely be a successful Toltec empire - the Aztec/Nahua didn't get bit until the 14th and 15th centuries. Please nerd about things now. I'll need ideas for the EU4 conversion, although I can only do so much with a game in progress. Rody One Half posted:I don't know if we'll get our chance to play with them though. The Aztecs tend to win big then fragment and melt away over time. I have buffed the invaders, but I have no idea how far they'll get or if/when they'll break up. This could be a Byzlp Ming Frontier Army situation here, or this could be their peak already. Pacho posted:If we have any say in the set up for EU4, I propose that instead of a monolithic and huge Inca Empire we get a loose confederacy of kingdoms, like the HRE. In our timeline the Incas were most likely aymara (there's a theory that the ruling houses -panacas- spoke an aymaran language between them) lording over a vast, recently conquered/vassalized quechua and aymara territory. For this scenario we can have that the eurasian plague still wrecks Cusco and gives the regional powers more autonomy. I think this will give the are more dinamism, variety and intercontinental colonial situations. Also, if we are playing with the Sunset Invasion notion, please, let's have Naylamp as a leader of an advanced polynesian empire https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naylamp I really like this idea. The default EU4 conversion leaves us with a big empire, and I was already thinking of breaking it up. When we get closer to EU4 conversion, I'll run a series of votes on how the rest of the world is set up.
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Jul 16, 2019 21:12
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Pacho posted:If we have any say in the set up for EU4, I propose that instead of a monolithic and huge Inca Empire we get a loose confederacy of kingdoms, like the HRE. In our timeline the Incas were most likely aymara (there's a theory that the ruling houses -panacas- spoke an aymaran language between them) lording over a vast, recently conquered/vassalized quechua and aymara territory. For this scenario we can have that the eurasian plague still wrecks Cusco and gives the regional powers more autonomy. I think this will give the are more dinamism, variety and intercontinental colonial situations. Also, if we are playing with the Sunset Invasion notion, please, let's have Naylamp as a leader of an advanced polynesian empire https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naylamp What would be more interesting a Mayan conquest of Polynesia or a Polynesian conquest of South America? Or Both?
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Jul 16, 2019 21:21
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Xelkelvos posted:What would be more interesting a Mayan conquest of Polynesia or a Polynesian conquest of South America? Or Both? Two vast empires, one of land, one of sea, locked in a mortal struggle for dominance.
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Jul 16, 2019 22:51
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Pacho posted:If we have any say in the set up for EU4, I propose that instead of a monolithic and huge Inca Empire we get a loose confederacy of kingdoms, like the HRE. In our timeline the Incas were most likely aymara (there's a theory that the ruling houses -panacas- spoke an aymaran language between them) lording over a vast, recently conquered/vassalized quechua and aymara territory. For this scenario we can have that the eurasian plague still wrecks Cusco and gives the regional powers more autonomy. I think this will give the are more dinamism, variety and intercontinental colonial situations. Also, if we are playing with the Sunset Invasion notion, please, let's have Naylamp as a leader of an advanced polynesian empire https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naylamp I thought Aymara was mostly spoken in the surrounding of Lake Titicaca and south of there? I also think it's a little bit lame to make the Inca less centrally powerful because some of the most interesting elements of Inca rule were driven by the power of the Sapa Inca. shades of blue fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jul 16, 2019 |
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Jul 16, 2019 23:24
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Sampatrick posted:I thought Aymara was mostly spoken in the surrounding of Lake Titicaca and south of there? I also think it's a little bit lame to make the Inca less centrally powerful because some of the most interesting elements of Inca rule were driven by the power of the Sapa Inca. Yes, Aymara is mostly spoken in southern Peru and Bolivia, but there are strong indicators that the elites that formed the initial Inca Kingdom in Cusco were actually aymaran and that would explain why the principal origin myth of the Incas (Manco Capac and Mama Ocllo) have the dude coming up from the waters of the Titicaca. Also, the massive expansion of the Inca Empire only lasted a hundred years and the biggest reach was during the reign of the last three Incas before the spaniards: Pachacutec, Tupac Inca Yupanqui and Hayna Capac. So yeah, the empire was super hierarchical and the infraestructure was built for a centralized goverment but the plague and conquistadors came before the expansion was really consolidated. One of the reasons the Empire was embroiled in a civil war when Pizarro came knocking was that Atahualpa came from a Quitoan panaca while Huascar was from Cusco (the royal panacas were tracked matrilinearly so when the Incas married into other kingdoms they were also expanding the imperial families to other regions) so there's precedent for regional shifts of power but with the goal of keeping the empire together and centralized Also, it seems more fun to have more tags in the area than just the huge Inca empire surrounded by empty land Re: Polynesian Empire, I'm all up for having three major powers in the americas: Aztecs, Incas and colonizer Polynesians
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Jul 17, 2019 00:28
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Pacho posted:Yes, Aymara is mostly spoken in southern Peru and Bolivia, but there are strong indicators that the elites that formed the initial Inca Kingdom in Cusco were actually aymaran and that would explain why the principal origin myth of the Incas (Manco Capac and Mama Ocllo) have the dude coming up from the waters of the Titicaca. Also, the massive expansion of the Inca Empire only lasted a hundred years and the biggest reach was during the reign of the last three Incas before the spaniards: Pachacutec, Tupac Inca Yupanqui and Hayna Capac. So yeah, the empire was super hierarchical and the infraestructure was built for a centralized goverment but the plague and conquistadors came before the expansion was really consolidated. One of the reasons the Empire was embroiled in a civil war when Pizarro came knocking was that Atahualpa came from a Quitoan panaca while Huascar was from Cusco (the royal panacas were tracked matrilinearly so when the Incas married into other kingdoms they were also expanding the imperial families to other regions) so there's precedent for regional shifts of power but with the goal of keeping the empire together and centralized That's rad. Are there any books you recommend for learning more about what Inca society and governance looked like?
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Jul 17, 2019 00:49
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The aztec empire in sunset invasion, leaving aside the fact that they were established centuries later, wouldn't resemble anything from our history for a fairly simple reason: by the time it had become as large as an empire it would have to go through horrible rome-like civil wars and reformations to establish a true imperial edifice. The aztec empire is also known as the "triple alliance" because it was, well, an alliance of three city-states that used tributary arrangements to create an unwieldy network of vassal arrangements. By the end of it's life in our timeline, not only was Tenochtitlan's position as foremost among the alliance causing terrible internal problems, the vassals were in open revolt. Cortes's invasion was less like a group of technologically advanced conquerors showing up and dominating and more or less exactly what you get when the equivalent of the social war is hijacked by some overseas idiot who unwittingly kills 90% of the population with plague. Without this happening you get two outcomes with a billion permutations: either Tenochtitlan and the mexica lose, causing the empire to collapse, or they win, but have to reform anyway to create a broader class of citizenship. This isn't even getting into the question of other major groups in the area. In central america there are two major competitors to the mexica in their ability to create a dominating state: the Tarascans or Purépecha people, who had metalworking, unique among all native american peoples at the time as well as a centralized state and the Maya, who were able to establish a federation of city-states that dominated the entirety of the Yucatan peninsula, before it horribly imploded due to succession issues and rebellion.
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Jul 17, 2019 05:21
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Things would probably have to start changing several hundred years before the present time in game for it to be in a position to make a mass invasion like this. Assuming changes further back aren't desired, things would probably need to start diverging in the 400s or 600s which sits in the middle of the Classic Period of the Maya, which is during its apogee and coincides with the Zapotec and Teotihuacan. It was something of a golden age for those peoples, so perhaps if some livestock were domesticated or more advanced metallurgy were struck upon the Maya could ride this into greater centralized power and glory. Build up to something akin to a Mesoamerican Rome that suffers some collapse down the line with the Aztecs or someone showing up to fill the vacuum and create a more imperial system.
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Jul 17, 2019 05:53
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The maya were pretty much a greek/itallian style peninsula full of city-states, so I can see that. Then there's the issue of the Tarascans. The Tarascans were basically like no one else in mesoamerica. Their culture was part of that broad milieu, but as far as can be seen, they didn't share gods and their language is a completely different group. But that's just the start. Substantial differences are that they were actually a fully centralized kingdom who exhibited a sense of territory beyond city-state allegiance, unlike the aztec empire. They actually had castle-style fortifications and acted to secure not just vassals and tributary arrangements, but directed territorial conquest. They also, uniquely, were able to actually use metalworking for tools.They're also a bizarre anomaly because they pretty much just showed up one day with no one being able to adequately explain where they came from. So, essentially just northwest of the Aztecs were this centralized kingdom with fortified borders founded by a bunch of people with no relation to the rest of mesoamerica who actually had metal tools. Their methodology and approach was totally unique, in that they essentially were a monarchical state instead of a league of city-states or an alliance with a bunch of tributaries like the Maya or Aztecs respectively. Their approach to warfare was very different from any other part of mesoamerica, because they didn't engage in captive sacrifice, or if they did, they didn't singularly prize it like others did. This leads to them engaging in acts of sabotage or guerrilla warfare or other tactics that were completely unfathomable when the personal objective of a soldier in other armies at the time is to get a captive. For the record: among the Mexica of the time, which is to say, the Aztecs, if you're male, you aren't really a person at all until you gain a war captive and sacrifice them. Until then you are basically completely nothing socially or spiritually and if you die you have absolutely no chance of anything good happening to you. NewMars fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 06:52
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The Tarascans and Aztecs are still a few hundred years off at this point though. I mean sure it wouldn't be hard to come up with reasons as to what they're doing there a few hundred years before schedule, especially if Mesoamerica got started earlier or advanced more rapidly.
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Jul 17, 2019 08:59
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Tarascans are probably a special case: they may very well actually have sailed there from south america around about... now, actually. Meaning that they would probably be in south america without a non-unified mesoamerica to colonize. It's a similar situation with the mexica people entering the valley of mexico. I mean, by any reasonable definition the people invading now would not be aztecs, who would still be wandering about arizona. People have said that they might feasibly be toltecs, but toltecs are literally mythical. I mean, current views on the subject are that Toltecs are actually several different civilizations who've been mythologized into a single one by later peoples. "Real" toltecs may very well just be the people who inhabited the city of Tulla during it's heyday, which was both pretty big and influential but also did not last all that long. Edit: Hmm, actually there's rather more evidence for the Tarascans migrating from Nevada, so they'd far more likely be there right now than South America. NewMars fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 09:23
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Man this discussion is fascinating.
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Jul 17, 2019 14:02
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