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https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-07-16/usaid-diverting-humanitarian-aid-to-political-opposition-in-venezuela posted:All of the money being diverted will go to Guaido and his faction, the memo said, to pay for their salaries, airfare, “good governance” training, propaganda, technical assistance for holding elections and other “democracy-building” projects.
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Jul 17, 2019 12:33
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fnox posted:Ok, great, can’t you loving criticize both things? Can’t you be critical of both Maduro and the US? Can’t you push for a solution that involved Maduro being removed as opposed to telling Venezuelans they shouldn’t do anything to improve their situation? The point that Maduro is bad has been conceded multiple times by numerous posters arguing against intervention, myself included. So has the point that it would be good if he were no longer in power, ideally by means of an internal left wing uprising. This hasn't mattered one bit apparently. Since I'm neither a Spanish speaker nor a Venezuelan I'm not in a very good position to advance such a cause, but you are fnox. Perhaps instead of telling this mainly US-based audience about how nice it would be for Uncle Sam to put the boot on Venezuela you could instead talk to your friends and family about how they should refuse to let the false savior Guaido lead the country into the imperial slaughterhouse and talk of the necessity for change to come from the ground up rather than from outside and to organize as one common people against both the predations of the corrupt PSUV regime as well as those of the murderous United States. Zidrooner fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 13:06
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M. Discordia posted:I guess August came early this year. Pretty close, in a garish sense. Though, constant invocation of Abrams is almost wholly a function of Yeowch so when he's not here, that vanishes. I was expecting any sort of important-ish enough evidence of legitimate death squads to come after a substantial infrastructural failure of the kind not experienced yet (but hinted at by the power monopoly failures).
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Jul 17, 2019 13:21
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Zidrooner posted:The point that Maduro is bad has been conceded multiple times by numerous posters arguing against intervention, myself included. So has the point that it would be good if he were no longer in power, ideally by means of an internal left wing uprising. This hasn't mattered one bit apparently. Since I'm neither a Spanish speaker nor a Venezuelan I'm not in a very good position to advance such a cause, but you are fnox. Perhaps instead of telling this mainly US-based audience about how nice it would be for Uncle Sam to put the boot on Venezuela you could instead talk to your friends and family about how they should refuse to let the false savior Guaido lead the country into the imperial slaughterhouse and talk of the necessity for change to come from the ground up rather than from outside and to organize as one common people against both the predations of the corrupt PSUV regime as well as those of the murderous United States. You do understand that, we’ve been trying to change the government for more than a decade and it’s the lack of international support what has killed us every time? I mean what kind of loving idiots do you think we are, do you think the Venezuelan people are not aware that getting rid of Maduro and replacing him with a transitional government would be the way to go? I mean, it was the international left blocking any attempt to remove him before. Or what, you think the rhetoric changed only now? It’s been the same old song and dance since the beginning. I’m loving sick and tired of hearing about the US this and the US that but when we request help from other sources your branch of the international left blocks it anyway, because for some loving reason claiming you’re a Marxist and anti imperialist shields you from scrutiny. When the crisis wasn’t as bad as it was, we tried. We got blocked, we didn’t get international backing, so Maduro stayed. The international left has done next to nothing to ensure the wellbeing of Venezuela’s democracy, but now you want us to loving listen to you? No solutions whatsoever for 8 years, but nah you know better than us?
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Jul 17, 2019 14:47
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fnox posted:You do understand that, we’ve been trying to change the government for more than a decade and it’s the lack of international support what has killed us every time? I mean what kind of loving idiots do you think we are, do you think the Venezuelan people are not aware that getting rid of Maduro and replacing him with a transitional government would be the way to go? What exactly do you mean by "the international left"?
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Jul 17, 2019 14:53
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Helsing posted:What exactly do you mean by "the international left"? Literally, the left intelligentsia abroad. The Latin American left is mostly sympathetic and perhaps realises that getting rid of Maduro ASAP is crucial in avoiding further US action and stabilizing the country to put a brake on the refugee crisis. The European left (I’m going to exclude the British from that) similarly have turned against Maduro, albeit far too late and after having fallen for Maduro’s stall tactics. Maduro’s remaining allies are the Cuba aligned countries of Latin America, and anglophone leftists without much of a clue of what’s really going on in the country.
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Jul 17, 2019 16:39
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fnox posted:Literally, the left intelligentsia abroad. The Latin American left is mostly sympathetic and perhaps realises that getting rid of Maduro ASAP is crucial in avoiding further US action and stabilizing the country to put a brake on the refugee crisis. The European left (I’m going to exclude the British from that) similarly have turned against Maduro, albeit far too late and after having fallen for Maduro’s stall tactics. Maduro’s remaining allies are the Cuba aligned countries of Latin America, and anglophone leftists without much of a clue of what’s really going on in the country. Most leftists may not like Maduro, but I guarantee you, we like the idea of a foreign intervention aimed at regime change even less. That goes for leftists everywhere. fnox posted:You do understand that, we’ve been trying to change the government for more than a decade and it’s the lack of international support what has killed us every time? How much support do you think the international left has been empowered to give over the last several decades? 
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Jul 17, 2019 16:42
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Majorian posted:Most leftists may not like Maduro, but I guarantee you, we like the idea of a foreign intervention aimed at regime change even less. That goes for leftists everywhere. It doesn't. Most leftist institutions support Maduro because they are generally comprised of people whose career goal is "dictator." The head of the trade union association that makes up the biggest bloc in the U.K. Labour Party still runs a lobbying group and website dedicated to the proposition that Venezuela is a socialist paradise. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 17, 2019 16:48
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M. Discordia posted:It doesn't. Most leftist institutions support Maduro because they are generally comprised of people whose career goal is "dictator." Wow, that's quite a claim. Got anything to back it up?
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Jul 17, 2019 16:49
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gently caress i wish someone would give me that much money to blow on drugs and partying
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Jul 17, 2019 16:56
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I wonder what a "good governance class" given by the Trump administration looks like.
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Jul 17, 2019 17:04
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M. Discordia posted:It doesn't. Most leftist institutions support Maduro because they are generally comprised of people whose career goal is "dictator." The head of the trade union association that makes up the biggest bloc in the U.K. Labour Party still runs a lobbying group and website dedicated to the proposition that Venezuela is a socialist paradise. Are you talking about Big Len? Dude is a micro-dictator himself so I could definitely see this.
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Jul 17, 2019 17:16
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fnox posted:Literally, the left intelligentsia abroad. The Latin American left is mostly sympathetic and perhaps realises that getting rid of Maduro ASAP is crucial in avoiding further US action and stabilizing the country to put a brake on the refugee crisis. The European left (I’m going to exclude the British from that) similarly have turned against Maduro, albeit far too late and after having fallen for Maduro’s stall tactics. Maduro’s remaining allies are the Cuba aligned countries of Latin America, and anglophone leftists without much of a clue of what’s really going on in the country. Can you be more specific on who you're referring to, and explain how they're "blocking" attempts to remove him?
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Jul 17, 2019 17:29
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Tesseraction posted:Are you talking about Big Len? Dude is a micro-dictator himself so I could definitely see this. I don't think McCluskey's a very good bellwether of the international left on, well, anything. And even so, the dude's position seems to have been more pro-Chavez/anti-invasion than pro-Maduro. e: I say "have been" because I looked and he doesn't seem to have publicly mentioned Maduro or Venezuela even once since 2017. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 17:31
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fnox posted:You do understand that, we’ve been trying to change the government for more than a decade and it’s the lack of international support what has killed us every time? I mean what kind of loving idiots do you think we are, do you think the Venezuelan people are not aware that getting rid of Maduro and replacing him with a transitional government would be the way to go? quote:I mean, it was the international left blocking any attempt to remove him before. Or what, you think the rhetoric changed only now? It’s been the same old song and dance since the beginning. I’m loving sick and tired of hearing about the US this and the US that but when we request help from other sources your branch of the international left blocks it anyway, because for some loving reason claiming you’re a Marxist and anti imperialist shields you from scrutiny. Well that's an interesting factual claim, can you cite any sources? When was it exactly that you asked for help from "other sources" (other than the US is what I'm guessing you're reffering to) and which international leftist leader or organisation in particular then proceeded to block said help? I mean you've mentioned the "leftist intelligentsia abroad" in a general way but this doesn't make any sense, the left has been systematically expunged from positions of power throughout the world as a result of the efforts of the capitalist elite, especially within the nations powerful enough to be considered world powers. Leftist academics and activists barely hold even the slightest amounts of power locally, much less internationally, they don't get to decide who is or isn't head of state in Venezuela, the left is currently at one of its weakest moments in history. Please note that you can simply retract this statement instead of doubling down. Also you ask what solution I have that involves the removal of Maduro, and since it's not to your liking I'm now some kind of rear end in a top hat who thinks he knows better for trying to propose a solution? Grade A debating and discussing
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Jul 17, 2019 17:53
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Helsing posted:Can you be more specific on who you're referring to, and explain how they're "blocking" attempts to remove him? We live in a world that is very, very tightly connected through social media. The news that people spread, they matter. What you say on the internet, matters. At some point nobody gave a poo poo, but if you have a large enough following, you have influence. The influence of the American left in social media is entirely destructive to any opposition causes (be them left or right) in Venezuela. They do not contribute towards advancing a peaceful transition. Social media got Trump elected, I'd just like to remind you of that. The spread of misinformation is an extremely powerful weapon for maintaining control over people, and thus far the American left has been dedicated to spreading Maduro's propaganda unquestioningly. One thing that Maduro is extremely effective at is the creation of propaganda and of misdirections and he, as did Chavez, understands how loving easy it is to get Marxists and Communists to vociferously spread anything that is perceived anti-imperialist. Maduro having outreach grants him leverage, it makes him stronger, just like Trump he is able to make divisions where there should be none. And I'll of course admit that the opposition has been absolutely loving awful at using social media to their advantage. Someone like Capriles, who had a sizeable amount of support, completely squandered his potential by being atrocious at handling his internet presence. Guaido similarly has flubbed things, and it doesn't help that Youtube and Twitter are blocked countrywide every time he makes one of his hour long statements. The leftist opposition to Maduro? They're a complete loving joke at handling social media, this is why you don't know of them. But truth be told, having a constant stream of misinformation repeated ad nauseum does not help.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:04
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My dude, just a couple posts ago you accused the international left of blocking regime change in Venezuela. A bunch of leftists saying "hands off Venezuela" on social media is not what's keeping Maduro in power.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:07
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Oh, there's more concrete examples of that such as José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero toying the opposition around long enough with "peace" talks to calm down the streets in 2016. The Pink Tide was a thing and they constantly blocked international action in every pro-democracy bloc that Venezuela participated in. Every system meant to keep dictatorships in check failed in South America, UNASUR completely failed to force Maduro to do anything. Those of course, you already know of. I'm talking about the poo poo you may have a hand in. But what, you don't think having a strong propaganda arm is what is keeping Trump in power? It doesn't do anything? "People are smarter than this"?
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Jul 17, 2019 18:14
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fnox posted:The Pink Tide was a thing and they constantly blocked international action in every pro-democracy bloc that Venezuela participated in. I think you're kind of showing your anti-leftist rear end here, duder.  quote:But what, you don't think having a strong propaganda arm is what is keeping Trump in power? It doesn't do anything? "People are smarter than this"? The international left is pretty much out-of-power in every major power in the world right now. The notion that we have the power to block or allow a military intervention into Venezuela is pretty drat farcical when we couldn't even stop the invasion of Iraq. The reason why the U.S. hasn't invaded yet, in spite of Bolton's and Pompeo's inexhaustible saber-rattling, is because the Joint Chiefs cornered Trump, yelled at him that invading would be the dumbest possible thing that he could do, and because he's a coward and usually easily folds in the face of opposition from the senior brass, he backed down.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:20
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I'm not talking about right now. I'm talking about the rest of the Maduro presidency. The US could invade whenever they want to, the people responsible (other than Trump) don't want to, therefore it hasn't happened. That's always been plenty obvious to me. Those democracy watchdogs that I am talking about already failed to keep Maduro in check, that's already happened. I'm talking about the dozens of times there were endogenous threats to the Maduro presidency and this same old song and dance came along, and it quieted things down. You know what has happened on the last 7 or so years right? You don't think that the only opposition to Maduro is Guaido, am I correct?
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Jul 17, 2019 18:28
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fnox posted:Those democracy watchdogs that I am talking about already failed to keep Maduro in check, that's already happened. "Democracy watchdogs" (lol) and the international left are hardly one and the same thing. quote:I'm talking about the dozens of times there were endogenous threats to the Maduro presidency and this same old song and dance came along, and it quieted things down. The international left had little to no effect whatsoever on the success or failure of those movements.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:31
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So what the gently caress has the international left done during this entire time in your opinion? Have they just been sitting on their hands? If democracy is so important to the American left why the gently caress did nobody raise any significant objection to Maduro's constant assault on whatever checks and balances remained after Chavez?
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Jul 17, 2019 18:33
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fnox posted:So what the gently caress has the international left done during this entire time in your opinion? Have they just been sitting on their hands? If democracy is so important to the American left why the gently caress did nobody raise any significant objection to Maduro's constant assault on whatever checks and balances remained after Chavez? Pretty much. The international left is curiously amerocentric, and none of this has anything to do with America except in the context of ~regime change~
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Jul 17, 2019 18:38
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fnox posted:So what the gently caress has the international left done during this entire time in your opinion? Have they just been sitting on their hands? If democracy is so important to the American left why the gently caress did nobody raise any significant objection to Maduro's constant assault on whatever checks and balances remained after Chavez? The international left has been trying to figure out how to get into power. You may or may not have noticed, but Venezuela is not exactly the only thing on left-wing movements' radar at the moment. More leftists should be honest about Maduro's depredations, but if you honestly think that we have any real say over whether or not he remains in power, you're more delusional than I thought you were. Volkerball posted:Pretty much. The international left is curiously amerocentric, and none of this has anything to do with America except in the context of ~regime change~ I don't think this is true of Labour or the French left at all. Their big objectives are to take power and save their own countries from austerity and fascism. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 18:40
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Volkerball posted:Pretty much. The international left is curiously amerocentric, and none of this has anything to do with America except in the context of ~regime change~ This makes little sense.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:48
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fnox posted:So what the gently caress has the international left done during this entire time in your opinion? Have they just been sitting on their hands? If democracy is so important to the American left why the gently caress did nobody raise any significant objection to Maduro's constant assault on whatever checks and balances remained after Chavez? How dare the anti-interventionalist left not demand intervention against Maduro? Truly sick poo poo!!!!
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Jul 17, 2019 18:50
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There was an appreciation under the previous administration that overt American involvement, given our history in that area, would be counter to our goals, so while there was a push to raise awareness of what was happening there, other regional countries were encouraged to take a more leading role. Obviously the current administration had other ideas, which worked out to predictable results.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:51
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Majorian posted:I don't think this is true of Labour or the French left at all. Their big objectives are to take power and save their own countries from austerity and fascism. They still have the same view towards perceived western foreign policy. The only protests you'll see from them regarding foreign policy come about when they are arguing in favor of people like Maduro to oppose regime change. Otherwise, not a peep. It's kinda hard to take people seriously in the fight against fascism domestically when they make heroes out of foreign fascists simply on the merit of being anti-Western. It's a contributing factor in why they are so down on their luck in public opinion. But even so, it should be noted that the political environment in the US, western countries, and the world, have changed dramatically since the Iraq War, and in many cases, because of the Iraq War. So arguing that the left, or at least talking points promoted by them specifically related to foreign policy, are powerless today, is pretty silly. A lot of those talking points being thrown around about Hillary Clinton pushing for WW3, and Trump's anti-imperialist cred trumped up by lefty pundits, contributed to his election.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:56
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Don't wanna contribute to the beef here, but I just gotta point out one fact that somehow got lost again, even though it was discussed many times: Venezuela was in a crisis, and had economically non-sustainable (aka ridiculous) levels of inflation, well before any sanctions. This started before 2007. This is a fact. The data is available from state sources and international sources. This has nothing do to with the question of how sanctions may actively hurt people right now, or whether US intervention would implement a Big-Oil sponsored hellscape. But several posters confused this with Venezuela being economically hosed for literal decades, in excess of what a competent government would allow even in an oil crisis. That is pretty much the only fact anyone itt should agree upon. Carry on.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:56
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Mozi posted:There was an appreciation under the previous administration that overt American involvement, given our history in that area, would be counter to our goals, so while there was a push to raise awareness of what was happening there, other regional countries were encouraged to take a more leading role. Which is why I find fnox disparaging the Pink Tide rather grimly telling. A Lula-led Brazil taking a leading role in dealing with Maduro is a very different kettle of fish from a Bolsonaro-led Brazil doing the same. Volkerball posted:They still have the same view towards perceived western foreign policy. The only protests you'll see from them regarding foreign policy come about when they are arguing in favor of people like Maduro to oppose regime change. Otherwise, not a peep. Hey, you'll find no bigger advocate for a more fleshed-out left-wing foreign policy than me. (seriously, I do post about it pretty frequently) But opposing an invasion, sanctions, or coups aimed at regime change seems like a pretty important pillar of it. Majorian fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 18:57
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If you're supposed to be the good guys then why is nobody listening to you? Could it be perhaps that, this is the kind of poo poo you should be objecting to? The rise of a military autocracy from a flawed, divided democracy? You know, a good chunk of the Latin American left has turned its head on Maduro, yet most notable US left politicians haven't. The progressive side of the democrats, they haven't said a loving word about the atrocities of Maduro, and instead, propaganda festers.
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Jul 17, 2019 18:58
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fnox posted:If you're supposed to be the good guys then why is nobody listening to you? That...seems like an odd question to ask. Being the "good guys," whatever that means, has never meant that the broader public is going to listen to you, or put you in power automatically. If it were, Venezuela would have a non-kleptocratic left-wing leader right now, probably.  quote:Could it be perhaps that, this is the kind of poo poo you should be objecting to? As the Venezuelan Trots have amply demonstrated, one can object to multiple things at once. Objecting to Maduro's human rights violations, and opposing a U.S.-backed regime change in Venezuela, are not mutually exclusive positions.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:01
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Majorian posted:That...seems like an odd question to ask. Being the "good guys," whatever that means, has never meant that the broader public is going to listen to you, or put you in power automatically. If it were, Venezuela would have a non-kleptocratic left-wing leader right now, probably. Yeah exactly. People don't always listen to the correct side, the good side. The power of propaganda is the ability to make people back things that are against their own interests. This is not stupidity, this is what it is designed to do. Thus, the harm in letting it grow. Majorian posted:As the Venezuelan Trots have amply demonstrated, one can object to multiple things at once. Objecting to Maduro's human rights violations, and opposing a U.S.-backed regime change in Venezuela, are not mutually exclusive positions. The poster I was arguing with before you came in said the exact opposite, that denouncing Maduro helps the US.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:05
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fnox posted:The poster I was arguing with before you came in said the exact opposite, that denouncing Maduro helps the US. But I'm arguing with you. Your position is that the international left not denouncing Maduro has had a significant impact on keeping him in power - that we have blocked attempts to remove him from power. Yet there's really no evidence for this. You take issue with the international left opposing the U.S.' regime change attempts, as if we're the ones who are actually stopping it from happening. And then you make the completely ignorant claim that U.S. "left-wing" leaders don't condemn Maduro's human rights violations; this is totally false. Here's AOC being praised by a Fox News host (ugh) for calling out his depredations. Here is Bernie Sanders condemning Maduro, while opposing an intervention. This is pretty much the mainstream position among Democrats, who are, of course, not a left-wing party by any definition anyway.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:16
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Majorian posted:Hey, you'll find no bigger advocate for a more fleshed-out left-wing foreign policy than me. (seriously, I do post about it pretty frequently) But opposing an invasion, sanctions, or coups aimed at regime change seems like a pretty important pillar of it. That's a tough thing to square with supporting revolutionary change and militantly opposing fascism, and in the absence of those principles, then you don't really have an international left. Opposing the installation of proxy dictators is one thing, but opposing the removal of a regime by anyone simply because its leaders make token nods towards anti-Westernism is another. Authoritarian regimes by definition should not exist, and invasions, sanctions, and coups are all valid strategies in combating them, and the global rise of fascism they empower. Sure we can discuss each of these strategies in each particular case and examine the actors, the potential long term effects, the pros and cons, etc, through the lens of idealism where the goal is to make life better for people, not worse. But when you look at such things from a perspective where the first, second, and third priority is that the status quo must be maintained, simply because you think the US is up to something and you want to oppose it, then you're obviously no revolutionary. I'm not in favor of US military action in Venezuela, and I'm not in favor of installing some sort of US proxy in Maduro's place. But Venezuela and the world will be better places if he is pushed out and replaced with a representative Venezuelan democracy with principles rooted in human rights and fairness, and that's what I want to see, however we have to get there. I don't see how any decent person could think otherwise.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:22
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Volkerball posted:That's a tough thing to square with supporting revolutionary change Revolutionary change from whom, though? The Right? Because that's what has been on the table vis-a-vis regime change in Venezuela for the last couple decades, unfortunately. Hard to blame the left for not supporting that. quote:and militantly opposing fascism, Again, when it's a right-wing coup on the table that's supported by openly fascist governments in the U.S. and Brazil, you can't really expect the left to be onboard. quote:Opposing the installation of proxy dictators is one thing, but opposing the removal of a regime by anyone simply because its leaders make token nods towards anti-Westernism is another. But that's not at all what's happening. Plenty of leftists around the world condemn Maduro's depredations, and would rather see an actual left-wing government in power. We're just not convinced that puppets like Guaido would be any better, and we certainly don't believe that U.S. imperialism is the best vehicle for installing something better.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:29
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Volkerball posted:Pretty much. The international left is curiously amerocentric, and none of this has anything to do with America except in the context of ~regime change~ maybe the anglophone one is pretty US centric for unknowable reasons??? I would be surprised if say the German or French left were focused much on America beyond general anti-imperialism
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Jul 17, 2019 19:29
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Majorian posted:But I'm arguing with you. OK, cool. You do that a lot, by the way. You claimed that nobody in the thread supports Maduro maybe 3 posts before uninterrupted shows up. I'm not sure what the point is of you making these broad generalizations based on other posters but they're never accurate. Majorian posted:Your position is that the international left not denouncing Maduro has had a significant impact on keeping him in power - that we have blocked attempts to remove him from power. Yet there's really no evidence for this. You take issue with the international left opposing the U.S.' regime change attempts, as if we're the ones who are actually stopping it from happening. And then you make the completely ignorant claim that U.S. "left-wing" leaders don't condemn Maduro's human rights violations; this is totally false. Here's AOC being praised by a Fox News host (ugh) for calling out his depredations. Here is Bernie Sanders condemning Maduro, while opposing an intervention. This is pretty much the mainstream position among Democrats, who are, of course, not a left-wing party by any definition anyway. AOC does not get any points for saying she is "concerned" about the humanitarian crisis. We got 8 years of "concerned" with Obama. This situation needs more than just their concern. That's the mainstream Democrat view, by the way, it's to be "concerned". Bernie, I'll give him some credit, of the people who should be speaking up, he's one of the few who is. He spoke out against Chavez as well. But I mean, you yourself recognize, that's not the left, that's just the other party from the far right one. How about the "left-left"? What have they said? The marxists, the communists. Do you think they've criticized Maduro enough?
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Jul 17, 2019 19:39
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Majorian posted:But I'm arguing with you. Your position is that the international left not denouncing Maduro has had a significant impact on keeping him in power - that we have blocked attempts to remove him from power. Yet there's really no evidence for this. You take issue with the international left opposing the U.S.' regime change attempts, as if we're the ones who are actually stopping it from happening. And then you make the completely ignorant claim that U.S. "left-wing" leaders don't condemn Maduro's human rights violations; this is totally false. Here's AOC being praised by a Fox News host (ugh) for calling out his depredations. Here is Bernie Sanders condemning Maduro, while opposing an intervention. This is pretty much the mainstream position among Democrats, who are, of course, not a left-wing party by any definition anyway. Is Bernie Sanders really representative of the "international left"? He is a democrat after all and therefore a moderate. Same could be said about AOC though she doesn't have as long of a track record. Seems like a very USA-centric viewpoint to consider them significant world influencers. I thought that term was more about China/Russia/Cuba etc. Historical communist countries.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:44
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fnox posted:The poster I was arguing with before you came in said the exact opposite, that denouncing Maduro helps the US. Yeah and I also said that despite that negative aspect of this discussion many of us, myself included have denounced Maduro anyway and enunciated support for his removal from power by a left leaning movement. Honestly if it's the lack of support from us idiot international leftists who will support anyone claiming to be a marxist no matter what that is the problem, one has to wonder why the opposition to Maduro hasn't adopted a strategy of labeling itself as more properly marxist and communist than Maduro and attacking him via this angle, but I know the answer. One is that the support of leftists is not sought after, as our influence is neglijible since the worldwide dismantling of the trade union movement, and the other is that you are not interested in pursuing Marxist goals so labeling yourself as such would come off as a laughable joke. Like how Guaido is a member of the "socialist" international. Zidrooner fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 19:46
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