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fnox posted:OK, cool. You do that a lot, by the way. You claimed that nobody in the thread supports Maduro maybe 3 posts before uninterrupted shows up. I'm not sure what the point is of you making these broad generalizations based on other posters but they're never accurate. I'm not uninterrupted, so I'll let him speak for himself, but from what I've seen of his posts, he seems to be skeptical that Maduro is as directly responsible for all the ills in Venezuela as you'd have us believe, and opposes foreign intervention. That's not the same thing as supporting Maduro. Also, I'm pretty sure I've never said "nobody in this thread supports Maduro"; I tend not to make statements that maximally sweeping. quote:AOC does not get any points for saying she is "concerned" about the humanitarian crisis. We got 8 years of "concerned" with Obama. This situation needs more than just their concern. That's the mainstream Democrat view, by the way, it's to be "concerned". I honestly couldn't be less concerned with who you do or don't give "points" to; you said that left-wing leaders in the U.S. (again, lol) haven't condemned Maduro, and I've just proven that this is not the case. quote:But I mean, you yourself recognize, that's not the left, that's just the other party from the far right one. How about the "left-left"? What have they said? The marxists, the communists. Do you think they've criticized Maduro enough? Failing to criticize Maduro enough is not the same thing as keeping him in power or blocking regime change.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:47
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fnox posted:
The ones in action would be a Trump administration. Trying to parrot any kind of leftist rethoric about violently overthrowing Maduro would result in one thing only and that's the United States swooping in with some of that good ol' human rights campaign that is working wonders anywhere they touch.
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Jul 17, 2019 19:57
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Majorian posted:Also, I'm pretty sure I've never said "nobody in this thread supports Maduro"; I tend not to make statements that maximally sweeping. Lmao. You, who pushed the "I'm a Pinochet supporter" thing until the moment you were forced to contort yourself when the UN report proved the many atrocities that are happening under Maduro and you had to downplay the deaths of thousands, you don't make sweeping statements? "Literally no one here has argued that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs". Yet here we are.
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Jul 17, 2019 20:08
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fnox posted:Lmao. You, who pushed the "I'm a Pinochet supporter" thing When your line is to not only say that Maduro is worse than Pinochet, but also to take an openly negative view of the Pink Tide, and show yourself to be open to a right-wing U.S. invasion that you yourself termed "a deal with the devil," I think it's understandable why I and others would think you have some pretty right-wing tendencies. quote:"Literally no one here has argued that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs". Still an accurate statement, regardless of your absurd logic that if one opposes intervention, one thinks the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs.
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Jul 17, 2019 20:10
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I mean, I'll put my hands up here and say when I first heard of Hugo Chavez, a man who claimed to be pushing socialism and fighting American imperialism, I was hyped that such a person not only existed but seemed to be succeeding. Of course, the reality rarely lives up to the rhetoric. I think Chavez mostly meant well, I think Maduro may think he's doing the right thing but long ago either lost sight of it or lacked the moral conviction to challenge the kinda semi-junta of his mentor's creation. I suppose in a way it's interesting to contrast that with Turkey, where Ataturk felt it was necessary to give supreme military authority to prevent Islamism overtaking Turkey's progress. In this case, Chavez seemed to try something similar, with similarly negative results. At this stage I'm not sure what could root out the corruption. I don't think a new government alone would do it, nor would the corruption slither into the night quietly.
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Jul 17, 2019 20:19
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Majorian posted:When your line is to not only say that Maduro is worse than Pinochet, but also to take an openly negative view of the Pink Tide, and show yourself to be open to a right-wing U.S. invasion that you yourself termed "a deal with the devil," I think it's understandable why I and others would think you have some pretty right-wing tendencies. I take an openly negative view of the Pink Tide because Chavez spearheaded the Pink Tide, the Pink Tide brought in a corrupt government that has deeply, negatively transformed my life, excuse me for not having any love for it. You are too loving concerned with labels and flags that I have no interest in carrying. If opposing Maduro at all costs makes me right wing, then call me that, I don't give a poo poo. I'm opposed to military rule, I'm opposed to military everything, but, truth be told, the options that are on the table all seem to loving suck. You wanna know why I'm interested in the far left talking down Maduro? That's the people he would loving listen to. Remember what I said about a transition happening from a negotiation, and that being the unfeasible third choice? The reason why it is unfeasible is because Maduro doesn't have to listen to anybody. You need someone he would listen to, to intervene. If the American left could loving mediate, if someone who isn't on the side of military action actually participated in these talks on behalf of America, maybe they'd get somewhere. It doesn't need to be somebody in power, it needs to be somebody that Maduro would be willing to talk to in honest terms. fnox fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 20:22
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i personally am the leftist who is stopping maduro be deposed. i do it by modding gbs
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Jul 17, 2019 20:22
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fnox posted:I take an openly negative view of the Pink Tide because Chavez spearheaded the Pink Tide, the Pink Tide brought in a corrupt government that has deeply, negatively transformed my life, excuse me for not having any love for it. Again, you're tipping your hand. The Pink Tide had a far broader effect in Latin America than just Venezuela, and the fact that you view it as a negative thing overall is pretty drat telling. quote:You are too loving concerned with labels and flags that I have no interest in carrying. If opposing Maduro at all costs makes me right wing, then call me that, I don't give a poo poo. I'm opposed to military rule, I'm opposed to military everything, but, truth be told, the options that are on the table all seem to loving suck. And yet some options suck more than others. A U.S. invasion would be among the suckiest. quote:You wanna know why I'm interested in the far left talking down Maduro? That's the people he would loving listen to. I'm sorry, but that's the craziest thing that anyone has posted ITT. Maduro couldn't care less about what the international left thinks, outside of Cuba - and even then, their support of him is strategic and geopolitical, not ideological. e: Plus, of course, the international left is pretty powerless to mediate anything right now. Tesseraction posted:Guaido raises his guerrilla army, readies the troops and pulls on his balaclava. He readies his gun. His phone beeps. He opens the message and gets blinded by prolapse pictures, cancelling the revolution. The prolapse macro reads, "Maduro is bae." "NOOOOOO!!!!" screams Guaido, falling to his knees. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 20:25
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Jose posted:i personally am the leftist who is stopping maduro be deposed. i do it by modding gbs Guaido raises his guerrilla army, readies the troops and pulls on his balaclava. He readies his gun. His phone beeps. He opens the message and gets blinded by prolapse pictures, cancelling the revolution.
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Jul 17, 2019 20:30
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Majorian posted:I'm sorry, but that's the craziest thing that anyone has posted ITT. Maduro couldn't care less about what the international left thinks, outside of Cuba - and even then, their support of him is strategic and geopolitical, not ideological. Then congratulations, you don't actually believe in any other feasible plan to get rid of Maduro. poo poo does not just happen for no reason just because they're the right thing. If you cannot get to the man, then there's no way he will step down, peacefully. There's no room for manoeuvring here by the civilian opposition, if they protest, they get arrested and tortured. If they strike or defect, they get arrested and tortured worse, and probably killed. The only other choice is that he negotiates, the only way he'll negotiate is if the intervention option is off the table, the only way he'll believe it is off the table is if he talks to someone who would have a reason to oppose it. Lets bring Pinochet back in the table. Why do you think he agreed to making an actual referendum? fnox fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 20:41
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fnox posted:Then congratulations, you don't actually believe in any other feasible plan to get rid of Maduro. That's correct, and I've said as much before. I don't see an easy way out for Venezuela anytime in the future, and I think Maduro's probably going to remain in power for a while longer. It doesn't make me happy to say that, and I do think the Venezuelans should resist him where they can. But I'm not here to tell you pleasant lies to make you feel better. A U.S. intervention aimed at regime change would be a very, very bad thing for Venezuela - probably worse than its current state of affairs. quote:Lets bring Pinochet back in the table. Why do you think he agreed to making an actual referendum? Because it was easier to unite domestic and international opposition against him, since he systematically tortured and murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens during his reign, and it was directly attributable to programs from the central government. Also because he lost support of the top brass of the military. The opposition in Venezuela is weak and divided, in no small part because leaders like Guaido and Lopez are so clearly self-interested puppets for right-wing governments and interests.
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Jul 17, 2019 20:53
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The "directly attributable" part is in italics because you don't think that there's a directly attributable atrocity that can be pinned down to Maduro? I mean, I'm fairly sure that the true extent of Pinochet's atrocity was only discovered after he had vacated power, but, you know, the OLPs were all him? The people tortured under SEBIN's jurisdiction, you know, those are all his fault. The people sent to military courts, also him. I'm not sure why you insist with this bullshit that this is happening without him knowing.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:02
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fnox posted:The "directly attributable" part is in italics because you don't think that there's a directly attributable atrocity that can be pinned down to Maduro? I mean, I'm fairly sure that the true extent of Pinochet's atrocity was only discovered after he had vacated power, but, you know, the OLPs were all him? The people tortured under SEBIN's jurisdiction, you know, those are all his fault. The people sent to military courts, also him. I'm not sure why you insist with this bullshit that this is happening without him knowing. I'm not insisting anything of the sort; of course he knows it's happening. As I've said repeatedly, I find it more likely that Maduro has very little control over the police apparatus in Venezuela. This is closer to a failed state than a totalitarian dictatorship. Also, I noticed you're not really answering the big question that's still on the table: how are international leftists "blocking" (your word) Maduro's ouster from power?
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Jul 17, 2019 21:10
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Majorian posted:I'm not insisting anything of the sort; of course he knows it's happening. As I've said repeatedly, I find it more likely that Maduro has very little control over the police apparatus in Venezuela. This is closer to a failed state than a totalitarian dictatorship. It's a failed state that has turned into a totalitarian dictatorship. They're not exclusive, as a matter of fact they pretty much feed each other. The totalitarian dictatorship has found it easier to rule a country in ruins than one that can form a real opposition. Imagine how hard it is to be concerned about politics or to protest when you're busy just trying to live. And thanks to oil, the dictatorship is never really gonna run out of money so long as they have access to a line of credit and people to man the oil rigs, so, we can't really wait it out, the guys at the top are living large.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:26
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fnox posted:It's a failed state that has turned into a totalitarian dictatorship. They're not exclusive, as a matter of fact they pretty much feed each other. Those two things actually are mutually exclusive. A totalitarian system cannot function in a failed state. What you are describing is a kleptocracy in a failed state. Are you going to answer my question?
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Jul 17, 2019 21:28
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Majorian posted:Again, you're tipping your hand. The Pink Tide had a far broader effect in Latin America than just Venezuela, and the fact that you view it as a negative thing overall is pretty drat telling. There are literal death squads in Venezuela right now. Venezuela in 2019 is objectively worse from a "chance of getting executed in the street for having the wrong political opinion" metric than Chile under Pinochet ever was. If you are going to say that it's unacceptable to view this as a "negative thing overall" then just who the gently caress do you think is buying your "I don't support Maduro" nonsense?
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Jul 17, 2019 21:29
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I think it's just an ad hoc explanation that made sense in his head at the time and now that it's proving to be a ludicrous proposition fnox is backtracking, saying how he meant something else or just dodging the issue. Can't admit to simply being wrong for some godforsaken reason.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:29
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M. Discordia posted:There are literal death squads in Venezuela right now. Venezuela in 2019 is objectively worse from a "chance of getting executed in the street for having the wrong political opinion" metric than Chile under Pinochet ever was. If you are going to say that it's unacceptable to view this as a "negative thing overall" then just who the gently caress do you think is buying your "I don't support Maduro" nonsense? Citation needed
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Jul 17, 2019 21:32
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M. Discordia posted:There are literal death squads in Venezuela right now. Venezuela in 2019 is objectively worse from a "chance of getting executed in the street for having the wrong political opinion" metric than Chile under Pinochet ever was. If you are going to say that it's unacceptable to view this as a "negative thing overall" then just who the gently caress do you think is buying your "I don't support Maduro" nonsense? Where have I ever said that I think it's unacceptable to view Maduro's atrocities as a "negative thing overall"?
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Jul 17, 2019 21:34
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fnox posted:We live in a world that is very, very tightly connected through social media. The news that people spread, they matter. What you say on the internet, matters. At some point nobody gave a poo poo, but if you have a large enough following, you have influence. The influence of the American left in social media is entirely destructive to any opposition causes (be them left or right) in Venezuela. They do not contribute towards advancing a peaceful transition. This is the opposite of being specific. fnox posted:I'm not talking about right now. I'm talking about the rest of the Maduro presidency. The US could invade whenever they want to, the people responsible (other than Trump) don't want to, therefore it hasn't happened. That's always been plenty obvious to me. Those democracy watchdogs that I am talking about already failed to keep Maduro in check, that's already happened. I'm talking about the dozens of times there were endogenous threats to the Maduro presidency and this same old song and dance came along, and it quieted things down. You know what has happened on the last 7 or so years right? You don't think that the only opposition to Maduro is Guaido, am I correct? No they couldn't "invade whenever they want to", not in any meaningful sense. It would be a catastrophic misadventure and a guaranteed quagmire which is why no one has been seriously advocating it. The real barrier to the invasion isn't some nebulous "international leftist" opposition, it's material reality.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:53
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Jose posted:i personally am the leftist who is stopping maduro be deposed. i do it by modding gbs I’m glad you’re having fun with the death and genocide of my people, duder
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Jul 17, 2019 21:55
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Furia posted:I’m glad you’re having fun with the death and genocide of my people, duder He's making fun of fnox's bizarre magical thinking that it's the international left that is preventing regime change in Venezuela, not the loss of Venezuelan lives.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:58
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Zidrooner posted:Citation needed https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/report-venezuela-death-squads-kill-young-men-stage-scenes-190704170704105.html We've all suspected death squads for years and now we have more and more serious reports and studies about it. I'm finding it hard to believe you haven't heard of this before.
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Jul 17, 2019 21:58
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Majorian posted:He's making fun of fnox's bizarre magical thinking that it's the international left that is preventing regime change in Venezuela, not the loss of Venezuelan lives. Everything, including you, is political Sorry this interferes with your fasch bullshit (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 17, 2019 21:59
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zapplez posted:https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/report-venezuela-death-squads-kill-young-men-stage-scenes-190704170704105.html I'm pretty sure that's not the part he was saying "citations needed" at. Furia posted:Everything, including you, is political  What? What does this gobbledygook even mean?
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Jul 17, 2019 22:00
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Majorian posted:I'm pretty sure that's not the part he was saying "citations needed" at. Your existence is political. People that complain about things being “political” are typically the ones with something to lose from this being pointed out. How is this difficult to you?
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Jul 17, 2019 22:06
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Majorian posted:Those two things actually are mutually exclusive. A totalitarian system cannot function in a failed state. What you are describing is a kleptocracy in a failed state. See that's the part that I don't expect you to understand, because I think you need to see it to believe how something can be simultaneously absolutist and incompetent to the utmost degree. A kleptocracy where the kleptocrats are effectively gangsters and have total control of the country. Everything is strictly controlled by these rules but the rules don't apply to everyone. Also, I've already answered it? I'm talking about the specific points where the Maduro government was at its weakpoints and it got handed over a lifeline, it's happened multiple times, with Zapatero (He's a left wing Spanish politician) in 2016, in the Dominican Republic (pushed by the Dominican left) in 2017, with UNASUR in 2014. There's been several instances where Maduro has claimed that he was willing to negotiate with the opposition, the opposition sits down with him, whoever's supposed to pressure him offers a non-deal, time is wasted, nothing happens, public support is lost. I mean just the sheer amount of shenanigans happening with UNASUR and the OAS when Insulza was heading the organization. These are the organizations that are supposed to keep democracy in Latin America, it is literally the OAS's charter. fnox fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 22:10
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Furia posted:Your existence is political. People that complain about things being “political” are typically the ones with something to lose from this being pointed out. Well, what's difficulty for me about this is how it applies to me. I've never denied that my, and everyone else's, very existence is political. How does this apply to me with regard to the discussion at hand, ie: the left's ability, or lack thereof, to influence events in Venezuela?
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Jul 17, 2019 22:10
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Majorian posted:I'm pretty sure that's not the part he was saying "citations needed" at. Sorry if he wasn't talking about the death squads being real or not. It's hard to tell when you have posters speculating if the food crisis is real or not because Google reviews about restaurants are still active. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 17, 2019 22:11
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I wouldn't be surprised if the current Norwegian mediated talks have the same thing happen, I posted a thing a while ago that included some potentially worrying signs.  edit whoops that was in reference to fnox's bit about previous imploded talks Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 22:13
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Majorian posted:I've never denied that my, and everyone else's, very existence is political. How does this apply to me with regard to the discussion at hand, ie: the left's ability, or lack thereof, to influence events in Venezuela? Majorian posted:[..]international left that is preventing regime change in Venezuela Hmmm yes people and organisations are political except when it is inconvenient to you, I follow And you also feel the need to white knight for someone making fun of genocide because senpai will notice you I guess Get therapy (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 17, 2019 22:19
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fnox posted:See that's the part that I don't expect you to understand, because I think you need to see it to believe how something can be simultaneously absolutist and incompetent to the utmost degree. No, you're just flat-out misusing political terms. Totalitarianism implies a degree of control over both public and private life throughout society that you can't possibly implement in a failed state. quote:Also, I've already answered it? I'm talking about the specific points where the Maduro government was at its weakpoints and it got handed over a lifeline, it's happened multiple times, with Zapatero (He's a left wing Spanish politician) in 2016, in the Dominican Republic (pushed by the Dominican left) in 2017, with UNASUR in 2014. There's been several instances where Maduro has claimed that he was willing to negotiate with the opposition, the opposition sits down with him, whoever's supposed to pressure him offers a non-deal, time is wasted, nothing happens, public support is lost. These are insanely weak examples. Zapatero is a Tony Blair-style third-way centrist, and none of these examples threw any sort of meaningful "lifeline" to Maduro. They had no significant impact on the breakdown of negotiations between Maduro and the opposition. The fact that you're trying to pin blame for that on the international left is absurd. e: Furia posted:Hmmm yes people and organisations are political except when it is inconvenient to you, I follow Okay, so maybe you can answer my question, then: how is the international left blocking attempts to overthrow Maduro? quote:And you also feel the need to white knight for someone making fun of genocide because senpai will notice you I guess Right on, dude. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 22:26
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Majorian posted:No, you're just flat-out misusing political terms. Totalitarianism implies a degree of control over both public and private life throughout society that you can't possibly implement in a failed state. Who said they were? But sure, feel free to continue to laugh along with the peopl making fun of an ongoing genocide Of course, you think this is about “the international left”. Weird how you refuse to acknowledge that browns have any value in their lives and this is not something to be made fun of, but I guess you really enjoy those ICE concentration camps so what’s there to say to you?
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Jul 17, 2019 22:38
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Majorian posted:No, you're just flat-out misusing political terms. Totalitarianism implies a degree of control over both public and private life throughout society that you can't possibly implement in a failed state. You're arguing semantics and it's sad. It can be both, and it is both. It's a failed state, because it is a state that has failed to supply its citizens with its most basic needs and because it can't keep its issues within its own borders. It's an autocratic state because everything is tightly controlled by the state, personal freedoms are severely reduced and the state has control of basically all parts of the economy. Majorian posted:These are insanely weak examples. Zapatero is a Tony Blair-style third-way centrist, and none of these examples threw any sort of meaningful "lifeline" to Maduro. They had no significant impact on the breakdown of negotiations between Maduro and the opposition. The fact that you're trying to pin blame for that on the international left is absurd. Cute. The international community sounds more palatable to you? The point is, the opposition has been embattled for a long time, trying to dislodge Maduro as he increasingly entrenched himself. As doors closed, the people who are supposed to pressure him, didn't. There were protests in the street, the attention was on the popular discontent that existed against Maduro, cities such as Caracas had mass demonstrations of support for the opposition, Maduro agrees to talk, the talks take 3 months, nothing happens, crisis averted. Is that not a lifeline? Is that not just, letting him wait out until the protests ran out of gas? fnox fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jul 17, 2019 |
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Jul 17, 2019 22:39
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fnox posted:You're arguing semantics and it's sad. It can be both, and it is both. It's a failed state, because it is a state that has failed to supply its citizens with its most basic needs and because it can't interact I don't know what to tell you, buddy - that's not what "totalitarianism" means.  quote:Cute. The international community sounds more palatable to you? Well yeah, it does actually, but you're shifting the goalposts pretty drat considerably there. You said initially that the international left is blocking attempts to dislodge Maduro; now it's, "The international community doesn't criticize him enough"? Those are pretty vastly different positions there! quote:The point is, the opposition has been embattled for a long time, trying to dislodge Maduro as he increasingly entrenched himself. As doors closed, the people who are supposed to pressure him, didn't. "Supposed" to pressure him? Wait a second, why is the international community "supposed" to pressure him?
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Jul 17, 2019 22:43
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fnox posted:
How the gently caress are these moderate social democratic/liberal people and institutions representative of the left but at the same time Bernie Sanders isn't left enough for you? Look you can just say you were wrong about international leftists being responsible for keeping Maduro in power there is no reason to embarass yourself so thoroughly like this god drat. zapplez posted:Sorry if he wasn't talking about the death squads being real or not. It's hard to tell when you have posters speculating if the food crisis is real or not because Google reviews about restaurants are still active. Hmm was I talking about the very difficult to verify factual statement that Discordia made about it being easier to get killed in a politically motivated fashion under Maduro than Pinochet needing citations, or the news of the Venezuelan police apparatus murdering people arbitrarily which has been posted uncontested multiple times throughout the thread? It's hard to say when you are so poo poo at debating actual people that you have to make multiple alts and argue with yourself instead.
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Jul 17, 2019 22:45
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Am I shifting the loving goalposts or are you? Just like you did when the UN report came out, and it said that thousands were killed by Maduro, you started talking about tens of thousands. Now Zapatero or Insulza are not left enough to qualify. Everyone's right wing now unless they've got Che tattooed over their heart.Majorian posted:"Supposed" to pressure him? Wait a second, why is the international community "supposed" to pressure him? That's how democracy is supposed to loving work. They're supposed to pressure each other to maintain democratic standards. What sort of ridiculous statement is this? Why do you think there are international observers at elections? Democracy exists because people speak out when it is threatened. Venezuela is signatory to a dozen or so organizations with the explicit purpose of upholding democracy, I'm mentioning UNASUR and OAS for a reason. It's what they're supposed to do.
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Jul 17, 2019 22:52
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Zidrooner posted:How the gently caress are these moderate social democratic/liberal people and institutions representative of the left but at the same time Bernie Sanders isn't left enough for you? Look you can just say you were wrong about international leftists being responsible for keeping Maduro in power there is no reason to embarass yourself so thoroughly like this god drat.
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Jul 17, 2019 22:54
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fnox posted:Am I shifting the loving goalposts or are you? Well, let's see. Your claim was that the international left has "blocked" attempts to remove Maduro. Then, when you couldn't come up with any examples of this happening, you shifted it to something like, "A few center-left governments didn't help the already-doomed negotiations between Maduro and the opposition." And now you've moved to, "The international community hasn't been helpful enough." So yes, I would say you have been shifting the goalposts pretty noticeably. quote:That's how democracy is supposed to loving work. They're supposed to pressure each other to maintain democratic standards. From a neoconservative point of view, yes. I'm not a neoconservative, though - I think it's not really on nations to interfere in other governments to install pro-Western "democratic" regimes. quote:What sort of ridiculous statement is this? Why do you think there are international observers at elections? Democracy exists because people speak out when it is threatened. Venezuela is signatory to a dozen or so organizations with the explicit purpose of upholding democracy, I'm mentioning UNASUR and OAS for a reason. It's what they're supposed to do. Okay, so again, your beef is not actually with the international left, but rather, with some underpowered, underfunded interstate organizations who don't actually have any leverage over Maduro's government beyond a strong finger-wagging. What's particularly rich about blaming UNASUR is that most South American countries have withdrawn from it, under right-wing governments.
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Jul 17, 2019 23:01
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Majorian posted:Well, let's see. Your claim was that the international left has "blocked" attempts to remove Maduro. Then, when you couldn't come up with any examples of this happening, you shifted it to something like, "A few center-left governments didn't help the already-doomed negotiations between Maduro and the opposition." And now you've moved to, "The international community hasn't been helpful enough." So yes, I would say you have been shifting the goalposts pretty noticeably. What else do you call when things seem to reach the point where something is going to happen but they fall apart at the top level? Majorian posted:From a neoconservative point of view, yes. I'm not a neoconservative, though - I think it's not really on nations to interfere in other governments to install pro-Western "democratic" regimes. That's rich. So you believe countries should just go to poo poo and you shouldn't comment on it at all, not a peep. Not even a letter of condemnation. Majorian posted:Okay, so again, your beef is not actually with the international left, but rather, with some underpowered, underfunded interstate organizations who don't actually have any leverage over Maduro's government beyond a strong finger-wagging. What's particularly rich about blaming UNASUR is that most South American countries have withdrawn from it, under right-wing governments. Because Venezuela became president of the organization, therefore turning the thing into more of a joke than it was.
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Jul 17, 2019 23:20
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