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Super Waffle posted:Earlier in the thread someone talked about a scene in Dune Messiah that was printed in some versions but not in others, something about a historian being tortured? I just finished re-reading my copy, there definitely wasn't a scene like that in mine. What editions had that scene? Apparently early editions don’t have the Bronso scene, just a simple prologue/recap. I’ve never seen a version of Messiah without it though. The Bronso scene does mostly serve to recap the plot of the first book as well as set the tone, so idk maybe it’s just a refinement of the old prologue.
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Jul 18, 2019 03:14
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I see, I just checked my paperback copy and it does indeed start with the interview. Weird that I didn't remember it. The hardcover version I just finished reading has the other prologue:  The wiki says the British and American versions have the different prologues, but both of mine were printed in the US so who knows.
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Jul 18, 2019 03:43
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The interview does a better job and makes that prologue superfluous, imo.
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Jul 18, 2019 03:52
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Vlex posted:Isn't traveling without moving (a concept borrowed from Islamic mysticism) in Dune? When Paul is in the desert, some poo poo starts happening to him, where his (recently revealed) mentat training goes into overdrive, and he's doing computations he know he shouldn't be able to do, and able to infer huge amounts of accurate information from very limited sources of data and his own intuition, he starts rapidly using this mentat-ish mind state to greater and greater effect from moment to moment before it no longer seems like logic but something else, because he is now able to intuit events which haven't happened, but certainly will, and then he begins seeing branching paths based on small changes to what he is doing, and then what he is considering doing, which is when it begins being described as prescience, but prescience's first descriptions are Paul's experiences in the desert going from his baseline mentat training to that, and the catalyst was heaping amounts of spice. Guildsmen use a similar thing, that's also in the books, it's just far more limited in scope, they can glance the outcomes of their charted courses through spcae after a lifetime of immersion in spice and a lot of mutation, mechanically it's just a limited version of what paul does though.
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Jul 18, 2019 03:56
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I have a need for Dune memes
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Jul 18, 2019 04:05
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I got about 20 minutes into making a "is this a pigeon" meme but with the Baron as the anime dude and Alia as the butterfly and the text changed to "is this a midget" but I got bored
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Jul 18, 2019 04:11
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I have a need for Dune memes https://twitter.com/DankDuneMemes/status/1136196762035728384?s=20
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Jul 18, 2019 04:11
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I thought everyone knew that last one? There's a whole passage about how it never tasted quite the same each time. Edit: like, it's pretty on the nose, it's not some galaxy-brained take on ambiguous material.
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Jul 18, 2019 10:08
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Riot Bimbo posted:When Paul is in the desert, some poo poo starts happening to him, where his (recently revealed) mentat training goes into overdrive, and he's doing computations he know he shouldn't be able to do, and able to infer huge amounts of accurate information from very limited sources of data and his own intuition, he starts rapidly using this mentat-ish mind state to greater and greater effect from moment to moment before it no longer seems like logic but something else, because he is now able to intuit events which haven't happened, but certainly will, and then he begins seeing branching paths based on small changes to what he is doing, and then what he is considering doing, which is when it begins being described as prescience, but prescience's first descriptions are Paul's experiences in the desert going from his baseline mentat training to that, and the catalyst was heaping amounts of spice. However, he's prescient long before Dune, because Mohaim talks with him about his dreams which are not dreams - so I've always concluded that the Kwisats Hadarach is prescient to some degree, but the exposure to spice makes him much more so. Similarily, the Fremen experience - however subconcious it is - some of the spices prescience-giving ability, because in Dune as I've mentioned before, they know to bring Jessica coffee before she can think to ask for it. I'm listening to the Children of Dune audiobook again, for something to do while falling asleep (well, to keep my mind from wandering) - and I just got to a section where Jessica does mentation - and looking up the etymology and meaning of the word, it seems to imply that Mentats are people who can conciously go into a state of mentation at will?
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Jul 18, 2019 12:06
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D. Ebdrup posted:In Dune Messiah it's also heavily implied if not outright stated that he foresaw Chanis death as one of his earliest visions after he flees into the desert with his mother. I don't think you need to be psychic to figure that someone under a lot of stress is going to appreciate coffee.
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Jul 18, 2019 12:20
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It is explicitly said that the fremen are a little prescient: the spice orgy allows them to express it in a limited fashion.
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Jul 18, 2019 17:26
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exmachina posted:It is explicitly said that the fremen are a little prescient: the spice orgy allows them to express it in a limited fashion. This has probably been answered earlier in the thread, but are spice orgies just "mind" orgies? literal orgies? both?
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Jul 18, 2019 17:36
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I always interpreted it as a literal orgy, which the comment about Leto and Ghanima having already participated in Children made me y i k e s when I read it the first time
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Jul 18, 2019 17:42
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Sci Fi authors from that time were basically all creepy sex weirdos. Frank is no different!
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Jul 18, 2019 17:47
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Super Waffle posted:I always interpreted it as a literal orgy How rich the odors of your sie- 
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Jul 18, 2019 18:19
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Temaukel posted:This has probably been answered earlier in the thread, but are spice orgies just "mind" orgies? literal orgies? both? I read both.
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Jul 18, 2019 18:36
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Remember Frank was talking a lot about communities and leadership structures. He was able to handwave a lot of "who judges" because of melange addiction and what he called the Tau of the sietch, but with smallish groups and adversarial conditions a lot of concessions get made silently for the good of the community. You see it irl in those separatist communities like jonestown and one in my country called centrepoint where sexual predilections become rationalized by the community. I think an important point I just considered is that the sietch population would have skyrocketed since kynes Sr and jr instituted their plans. Step one is collect water, when Paul and Jessica are shown the windtrap the comment is made how much water they have, and the Kynes plan required labour so using water to support life for children and pregnant women would have been allowed, but the increase in population meant that the fremen were ready for a new political model since the chieftainship model really doesn't scale well. Kynes knew this, which was why he was so afraid of a Messiah.
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Jul 18, 2019 18:51
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https://twitter.com/DuneAuthor/status/1151898329099333632 The author of Dune is very proud
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Jul 18, 2019 20:29
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Phil Moscowitz posted:https://twitter.com/DuneAuthor/status/1151898329099333632
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Jul 18, 2019 21:32
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Infinite Karma posted:I have to laugh at the idiot "author" who uses the phrase "running out of words about" anything. Isn't it his job to have unlimited words at his disposal?
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Jul 18, 2019 22:57
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Temaukel posted:This has probably been answered earlier in the thread, but are spice orgies just "mind" orgies? literal orgies? both? I always took it to mean an orgy in the old sense, a mixture of "secret ceremonial rites held in honor of an ancient Greek or Roman deity and usually characterized by ecstatic singing and dancing" and "drunken revelry" as defined at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orgy Get hosed up on the Water of Life, dance, sing... there's surely some sex going on, but I don't think Herbert necessarily implied "Ok, we've changed the Water, everybody get ya dicks out!".
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Jul 18, 2019 23:36
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Pham Nuwen posted:I always took it to mean an orgy in the old sense, a mixture of "secret ceremonial rites held in honor of an ancient Greek or Roman deity and usually characterized by ecstatic singing and dancing" and "drunken revelry" as defined at https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/orgy That seems sensible and I like it better than the mummified gangbang I imagined
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Jul 18, 2019 23:49
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Spontaneous sietch musical numbers.
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Jul 18, 2019 23:53
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Exhausted after a long day slaying heretics, sweaty and oily Enter the sietch, a closed system to preserve moisture Throw off stilsuit, literally visible stink lines wafting off me and the pile of discarded water retaining garments and fluid pouches Grab my partner's hand and smile, we kiss, as our stink lines twine together like our soul. Walk into the orgy pit together naked, the colective smell of mankind living inside a pressure sealed cave gives way to pungent cinnamon odors. Feet touch cold oily stone as we throw down our gently caress mat Enter bliss as we drink from the communal spice bucket that looks like an old timey tin water can that's collected little bits of humanity of the dozens of people who drank from it before me The smells and noises of sex getting louder as our collective psychic consciousness begins to violently dominate our minds Orgasming as one as we glimpse eternity Awkwardly standing in line for the toilet taking in the sights and smells and basking in the afterglow of an time well sp-- hey what the gently caress? Why are leto and ghanima here? Jesus loving Christ.
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Jul 19, 2019 00:09
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Well you see they have adult minds which makes it okay. See the author thought up a way that it was totally cool for children to get gang banged, turns out they're older and more twisted than you could possibly imagine, now break off a poop crysknife and shove it up the future god emperor's rear end
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Jul 19, 2019 00:16
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The fact that's actually basically canon has made me hate children of dune
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Jul 19, 2019 00:17
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"When the tribe shares the Water," she said, "we're together - all off us. We...share" I mean, that was pretty clear to me 
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Jul 19, 2019 01:49
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Sorry to derail orgychat (though yeah that is mad gross that Leto and Ghanima got right into it, aren't they supposed to be like 12 in CoD?), but there's something I wanted to bring up after my latest re-read of the first book but forgot: Paul and Chani had a kid before Leto... right? I mean the child is talked about, but apparently is killed by Sardaukar or something? Am I remembering this correctly? Previously I had thought that this kid was Leto and totally forgot that Chani tells Paul he was killed. Did Paul not at all forsee this in his prescience, or am I totally misremembering? What is the point of the kid, other than a plot device to make Paul rage out at the Emperor?
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Jul 19, 2019 02:04
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Mister Speaker posted:Sorry to derail orgychat (though yeah that is mad gross that Leto and Ghanima got right into it, aren't they supposed to be like 12 in CoD?), but there's something I wanted to bring up after my latest re-read of the first book but forgot: his first son, also named leto, was killed by Sardaukar, yes. I can't remember if they explain why he didn't prevent it, though. maybe someone who has read it more recently can chime in.
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Jul 19, 2019 02:11
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uber_stoat posted:his first son, also named leto, was killed by Sardaukar, yes. I can't remember if they explain why he didn't prevent it, though. maybe someone who has read it more recently can chime in. The sardaukar attacked the women and children, and still nearly got beaten, but captured alia and killed leto 1.
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Jul 19, 2019 02:42
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Leto 1.9, Leto Alpha version, Leto Early Access.
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Jul 19, 2019 02:50
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lol thanks for clearing that up guys. Prior to my recent re-read I thought that there was no Ghanima (because really, what's the point of her character) and the kid was the same Leto II into the sequels. By the way, where can I get my Balls of Ibad gang tag?
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Jul 19, 2019 02:57
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Mister Speaker posted:By the way, where can I get my Balls of Ibad gang tag? The image is already hosted by the forums, so you'd just have to buy a new avatar and insert it in the "title text" box using BBcode.
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Jul 19, 2019 03:05
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Mister Speaker posted:Prior to my recent re-read I thought that there was no Ghanima (because really, what's the point of her character) and the kid was the same Leto II into the sequels. Has to carry on the bloodline, because the master plan is for basically everyone to have Atreides anti prescience genes and leto has no dick
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Jul 19, 2019 03:47
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Riot Bimbo posted:The fact that's actually basically canon has made me hate children of dune It was only when I started reading this thread and it got brought up once that I realized it could be taken to mean that, but now that I'm re-reading the series through audiobooks again, I'm still not sure - there's nothing about any of the few descriptions of the orgies that implies that sex is involved. Here's a quote from Children of Dune describing the first such orgy we're introduced to in Dune: Children of Dune posted:When she had been quite young, Alia Atreides had practiced for hours in the prana-bindu trance, trying to strengthen her own private personality against the onslaught of all those others. She knew the problem -- melange could not be escaped in a sietch warren. It infested everything: food, water, air, event he fabrics against which she cried at night. Very early she recognized the uses of the sietch orgy where the tribe drank the death-water of a worm. In the orgy, Fremen released the accumulated pressures of their own genetic memories, and they denied those memories. She saw her companions being temporarily possessed in the orgy.
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Jul 19, 2019 06:20
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Someone talks about sex as in a "well yeah we hosed during the orgy but who can tell whats going into what during that" way. Also thats what orgy means. E: though good points made above, idk
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Jul 19, 2019 06:33
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I'm nearing the end of CoD, and there's a repeating passage I think is a typo... This is super weird:quote:Leto stood out from his background as though at the focus of a blinding light. He had achieved harmony simply by accepting it. Anyone else's copy have this around page 374?
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Jul 19, 2019 06:40
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Mister Speaker posted:I'm nearing the end of CoD, and there's a repeating passage I think is a typo... This is super weird: Same here
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Jul 19, 2019 06:48
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Two things because I cant find my copy of Dune so I can re-read it. The thread has gone over how giving Piter enough spice to make his eyes blue is loving expensive, but are there any Bene Gesseritt who are so spice-girled up? Lore wise, on one hand having some senior Sisters so infused with spice would be a benefit since they would have extra human powers. On the other; gently caress the cost, they can just breed the quality in. In the movie Potato Idaho is killed by some weird bullet which can seemingly bore through his shield. Is this in the book and/or explained?
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Jul 19, 2019 07:02
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