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Someone help me navy please, playing ottomans atm and a bunch of plucky italian minors keep banding together to send my much larger fleets to the bottom of the med 
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Jul 18, 2019 15:40
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Weebus posted:Someone help me navy please, playing ottomans atm and a bunch of plucky italian minors keep banding together to send my much larger fleets to the bottom of the med You say your fleets are larger, but what are they made of? From what I understand, you're going to want a lot of galleys and ships of the line, as few transports as you can get away with, and no light ships out of port. Also - do they have Ideas that buff their navy, and what's the admiral situation like?
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Jul 18, 2019 15:59
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MaxieSatan posted:You say your fleets are larger, but what are they made of? From what I understand, you're going to want a lot of galleys and ships of the line, as few transports as you can get away with, and no light ships out of port. My fleet was 16 heavies including a flagship, around 40 galleys and 20 or so transports against a combined enemy fleet of around 28 ships, mostly light ships and galleys, there were also 2 ships of the line from the papal states and savoy. My 2/1/2/1 admiral fought a 2/0/1/2 admiral for half the battle until a 3/2/3/1 admiral from siena took over. The pope and the knights had quality but apart from that none them had any navy related ideas. The biggest problem was that my ships lost a ton of morale really quickly and then started dropping like flies, which is weird because our starting morale was about the same.
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Jul 18, 2019 16:37
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Weebus posted:My fleet was 16 heavies including a flagship, around 40 galleys and 20 or so transports against a combined enemy fleet of around 28 ships, mostly light ships and galleys, there were also 2 ships of the line from the papal states and savoy. My 2/1/2/1 admiral fought a 2/0/1/2 admiral for half the battle until a 3/2/3/1 admiral from siena took over. The pope and the knights had quality but apart from that none them had any navy related ideas. The biggest problem was that my ships lost a ton of morale really quickly and then started dropping like flies, which is weird because our starting morale was about the same. That doesn't sound right... all else being equal, I believe 16 heavies should be capable of winning against 28 galleys on their own (or at least give them a hell of a fight), let alone with 40 galleys giving support. Which tech level are you, and did you upgrade your ships? Did they have upgraded fleets? Did they have better diplo tech than you? Also, did you check your engagement width to see if the AI put all your heavies vs all of their galleys ? That could go badly since 1 heavy takes 3 spots in the frontline, and being focused by 3x the amount of galleys could kill them pretty quickly. It really sounds strange but it also sounds familiar, I can clearly remember other nations killing my fleet far too easily when I was playing as Ottomans, but I always focus much more on the army than the navy so I thought that was me not caring about navy tradition, admirals etc. Maybe someone more expert in naval matters could shed some light on this TorakFade fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Jul 18, 2019 |
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Jul 18, 2019 16:54
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Okay. There's a thing called engagement width that has a base of 25, modified by admiral's maneuver (10% per pip) and whether you're fighting in a coastal sea (10%). Heavies take up 3 space and every other ship takes up 1. Like armies, those outside the engagement are not participating but can still lose morale so you want to keep your groups just over maximum and reinforce with fresher ships as the fight continues. Furthermore, when an individual ship in an engagement is at 0 morale they are no longer firing, increasing the need to swap out the longer the battle continues. In your case, starting the battle with your flagship and about 10 heavies would have been optimal, following it up with the rest of the heavies once a couple of losses are taken. When you need a boost in morale you would bring in your galleys and then your transports if you think you could turn the battle.
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Jul 18, 2019 17:00
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I have higher diplo tech than all of europe and my ships are all upgraded so that's probably not the issue. The battle was in the strait between albania and southern naples if that helps.Sage Grimm posted:Okay. There's a thing called engagement width that has a base of 25, modified by admiral's maneuver (10% per pip) and whether you're fighting in a coastal sea (10%). Heavies take up 3 space and every other ship takes up 1. Like armies, those outside the engagement are not participating but can still lose morale so you want to keep your groups just over maximum and reinforce with fresher ships as the fight continues. Furthermore, when an individual ship in an engagement is at 0 morale they are no longer firing, increasing the need to swap out the longer the battle continues. In your case, starting the battle with your flagship and about 10 heavies would have been optimal, following it up with the rest of the heavies once a couple of losses are taken. When you need a boost in morale you would bring in your galleys and then your transports if you think you could turn the battle. Ugh, I should probably use a strategy more sophisticated than setting my largest fleet to hunt enemy fleets. But thanks, gonna keep this in mind for the next war.
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Jul 18, 2019 17:19
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I find it quite interesting and vaguely racist that the game doesn't mention the Holocaust once, even though the Holocaust is bad.  oh please tell me how you came to *this* decision, Johann.
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Jul 18, 2019 17:21
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I really don't like reserves taking morale damage. It makes the micro a pain in the rear end. I especially don't like it with navies since everything about them is already a pain in the rear end.
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Jul 18, 2019 17:33
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Average Bear posted:I find it quite interesting and vaguely racist that the game doesn't mention the Holocaust once, even though the Holocaust is bad. Don't be deliberately obtuse. The legacy of colonialism is a big deal and it was a major aspect of both real history and the core EU4 gameplay, so people have every right to criticize it they don't feel like it's handled well. If you're really going to invoke that comparison, look to HOI4, and, uh, if you think nobody's had the "it's kinda hosed up that nazis and imperial Japan are in this game but the game just kind of skirts around their greatest crimes against humanity" / "you're not wrong, but would allowing the player to do genocides really be better?" conversation about that game, I have some news for you.
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Jul 18, 2019 18:32
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Let's make one of the most tedious aspects of the game even more tedious
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Jul 18, 2019 18:43
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when you lose a ship in naval combat all your other ships take a significant morale hit, which means they’re closer to dying, and the whole thing snowballs. bail when you start to lose
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Jul 18, 2019 18:58
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Im learning all this navy stuff from this thread for the first time and it all seems shockingly tedious, especially compared to land combat which, while a little obtuse sometimes, doesnt really require any micro. Like what is the benefit to requiring this level of micro for naval battles?
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Jul 18, 2019 19:37
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Optimal naval strategy is to build a ton of ships around 1470 and forget about them until they get sunk, unupgraded, in 1650
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Jul 18, 2019 19:38
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Senor Dog posted:I really don't like reserves taking morale damage. It makes the micro a pain in the rear end.
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Jul 18, 2019 19:42
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AnEdgelord posted:Im learning all this navy stuff from this thread for the first time and it all seems shockingly tedious, especially compared to land combat which, while a little obtuse sometimes, doesnt really require any micro. Being able to win against Great Britain's late-game Wooden Wall?  You do the same sort of micro in late-game land combat. It's also rather key in multiplayer once your individual countries are butting against the current engagement width limit.
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Jul 18, 2019 19:48
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Sage Grimm posted:Being able to win against Great Britain's late-game Wooden Wall? Best way to do that is to take some Scottish provinces earlier, so you can ship your armies over there in peacetime and just have them stomp all over the place once war begins.
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Jul 18, 2019 20:09
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Sage Grimm posted:Being able to win against Great Britain's late-game Wooden Wall? That’s the benefit of doing the micro, not of requiring the micro
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Jul 18, 2019 21:56
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Then no benefit, its unintuitive and needs to be handled differently in the next iteration.
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Jul 18, 2019 22:17
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Something the other guys didn't mention is that a lot of those small merchant republics get some sort of ship boost in their national ideas. For examples the knights get +20% galley combat, and I think genoa gets a morale boost. A couple things like that could have let them knock your morale down and then the whole "0 morale ship doesn't fire but takes combat width" can really mulch your ships.
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Jul 18, 2019 22:35
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1961 development in 1578. I wonder if I can take this to a world conquest? My rivals in Ottomans, Ming, and Russia aren't doing all that well. It's optimal to do Court and Country immediately, right? At least as soon as I can get my absolutism up there.
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Jul 18, 2019 22:49
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:It's optimal to do Court and Country immediately, right? At least as soon as I can get my absolutism up there. Yeah. If you want to get up to 50 absolutism faster, try to spawn particularist rebels, or any type that raise autonomy (like peasants etc) and give into their demands. Then just lower the autonomy on all the provinces that just got raised. But if you already have some absolutism, keep in mind that giving into their demands will lower the absolutism you already have by a fair bit.
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Jul 18, 2019 23:02
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:1961 development in 1578. I wonder if I can take this to a world conquest? My rivals in Ottomans, Ming, and Russia aren't doing all that well. Maybe. But be prepared to focus way too hard for the next 200 years. It's a grind.
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Jul 19, 2019 00:55
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Honestly if anyone wants to do a WC for the achievement, do budgetmonk's strat for early revoke as Austria. Use your many subjects to fight your wars and eat the OE. My only WC was an early revoke in 1512 and even that suuuuucked.
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Jul 19, 2019 00:57
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Yeah the only WC I've ever done was with Kazan back when they first added razing and Hordes were just broken as gently caress, and even then it was a miserable experience. Tried to do it again with DDRJake's Minghals build, and got about half way through before I had to give up.
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Jul 19, 2019 05:20
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I get bogged down by coalition wars which means I have to learn how to juggle coalition wars and there's no real other way of learning that short of..well doing a WC.  (Or doing something like DDRJake's Andalusia game and letting France simmer in the mountains with attrition) I'd recommend Ashikaga's vassal swarm if you don't want to HRE it up.
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Jul 19, 2019 05:31
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Fintilgin posted:Maybe some system where the province is owned by natives, but colonial powers can build a trading post, a bit like how merchants republics in CK2 can. Once your trading post has built to a certain point you can seize the province like forcing a vassal to give you a core. Thematically this feels right. My impression of real world colonisation was that the colony starts off just being a dot on the map exercising no influence outside that area, and gradually as it grows the balance of power changes. Once it changes so much that locals notice, that provokes tensions and you eventually got raids and such conflicts, that over time the colonists win more often than not due to having a more effective military. Until eventually the entire local area is under control of the colonists, who then send off a new colony and repeat the process, while also expelling or exterminating any locals who are still around.
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Jul 19, 2019 05:31
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What's so bad about doing a WC? I guess microing all those late game wars going on at once would be a real pain.
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Jul 19, 2019 07:36
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:1961 development in 1578. I wonder if I can take this to a world conquest? My rivals in Ottomans, Ming, and Russia aren't doing all that well. Sure it's possible, try to get the Hindustan culture group bonus before Absolutism, for that extra -10% core creation cost (and I also hope you have Administrative and preferably Humanism) Vivian Darkbloom posted:What's so bad about doing a WC? I guess microing all those late game wars going on at once would be a real pain. I usually went one or two wars at a time, but most of the time it's rebels. Thankfully those are really kept at a minimum with Mughals, especially if you get some -War Exhaustion policy you can be in a forever war without ever experiencing unrest. Edit: I also disliked fully annexing colonisers, especially if you don't have the whole world revealed. I had to go to the main menu, check for any province names that I might have missed and retry a peace deal, since there was no annex everything button and the colonial nations' provinces were polluting the list. mmkay fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Jul 19, 2019 |
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Jul 19, 2019 08:25
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:What's so bad about doing a WC? I guess microing all those late game wars going on at once would be a real pain. It's mostly that after a point, there's no fun to be had. You've won, no one can challenge you. All that's left is to continually be at war in fights that you aren't going to lose, mindlessly moving troops around in ways that are probably suboptimal but gently caress it, it doesn't matter anyway. And yet it's not even relaxing or anything because you've got a timer to beat.
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Jul 19, 2019 09:40
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Beefeater1980 posted:Thematically this feels right. My impression of real world colonisation was that the colony starts off just being a dot on the map exercising no influence outside that area, and gradually as it grows the balance of power changes. Once it changes so much that locals notice, that provokes tensions and you eventually got raids and such conflicts, that over time the colonists win more often than not due to having a more effective military. Until eventually the entire local area is under control of the colonists, who then send off a new colony and repeat the process, while also expelling or exterminating any locals who are still around. That might be true in case of North America but it really depended on a place. You can call Portugal's Goa sort of colony, can't you? And Spanish dominion over Mexico was sort of colonization too even when they ruled over existing cities and countries they still sent people there. In many cases locals were quickly integrated. In some cases, they were massacred or pushed away. Or there were no locals at all. Or locals were prepared to become part of the colonial dominian because they got used to just a few missionaries and merchants transforming their society. Or they were just bought with gold and guarantees of some privileges. There isn't one single colonization process.
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Jul 19, 2019 11:02
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the separatists are super annoying but you can mitigate that with the right ideas and policies. i would say the worst part is the constantly thinking “do i have enough time left??”
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Jul 19, 2019 11:18
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AnoHito posted:It's mostly that after a point, there's no fun to be had. You've won, no one can challenge you. All that's left is to continually be at war in fights that you aren't going to lose, mindlessly moving troops around in ways that are probably suboptimal but gently caress it, it doesn't matter anyway. Here, a man enjoying a world conquest https://www.twitch.tv/videos/442996126
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Jul 19, 2019 11:25
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mmkay posted:Sure it's possible, try to get the Hindustan culture group bonus before Absolutism, for that extra -10% core creation cost (and I also hope you have Administrative and preferably Humanism) I'm doing really bad on ideas and tech because it's so hard to get institutions like printing press. All I have right now for idea groups (in 1614!) is Humanist, Defensive, and Diplomatic, plus Administrative which I just started. And my finances are pretty hosed. So I might just go for the 1001 provinces achievement and save my sanity.
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Jul 19, 2019 16:10
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Sage Grimm posted:Then no benefit, its unintuitive and needs to be handled differently in the next iteration. Ugh, I hate that unit micro so much. You should be able to dump your units into the province and the ai manages your front line and reserves in a sensible manner. This poo poo where you hold half your forces back in another province, 75 miles away, and micro to march them in at the optimal time is garbage.
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Jul 19, 2019 16:26
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Imperator has unit automation where you can make your own units act like a vassal swarm and I hope thats gonna be back ported to eu4
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Jul 19, 2019 17:09
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To be honest that's why I like having at least one vassal with me; they'll backfill all the provinces I missed because I'm siegeing down forts or hunting down armies.
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Jul 19, 2019 17:43
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Sometimes I even leave wars entirely to vassals. Specially in the Americas, after I get some big colonial nations going, I will use then to conquer all those small native nations. I declare a war, I mark each province each CN should conquer, and I go do something else while they war for me
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Jul 19, 2019 18:33
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Court and Country is really annoying -- if unrest gets below 1, it resets. I have to keep truce-breaking and racking up war exhaustion just to get it.
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Jul 19, 2019 23:09
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triggering court and country sucks big time yeah
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Jul 20, 2019 00:14
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Well I got Court and Country but I also got bankruptcy at the same time. I forgot it would cancel all my cores, take all mana, and put me in 0 legitimacy hell. Maybe I'll try France next time, as my Mughal empire has a bunch of countries escaping and it's gonna take ages to pick up the pieces. e: I definitely took out too many loans in this game but when I went bankrupt I only had 20 loans or so. It's because my national income collapsed with the disaster, -3 stability, and rebels everywhere. I could see doing this again with Mughals, it was an exciting game most of the time though I only got to 1630. But I'd need to be smarter about money -- in the 1500s you have a 50% artillery cost discount from Splendor but things get really expensive after that. I was hardly getting any money from trade, so I probably should have changed my trade port to Basra where I could forward trade via light ships. I also should have just no-CBed for those gold mines in East Africa and started with the trade companies there, instead of staying local to Asia. Vivian Darkbloom fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Jul 20, 2019 |
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Jul 20, 2019 01:20
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