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the workers will always want an improved standard of living, let's say the average upper middle class American lifestyle as the baseline, and any type of society will give that gives the working class power will eventually have to accept some level of environmental destruction. true environmentalists will see the only way is a forced agrarian authoritarian society much like the khmer rouge.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:22
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Raskolnikov38 posted:there were no raids on the west coast because the pigs were too afraid of urban combat oh ok if this is true i retract my making fun of the guy.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:26
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Autism Sneaks posted:can't have a halfway-sane conversation about ecological leftism in CSPAM without Flowers barging in like a mud-caked street dog barking about how we should all revert to hunter-gatherer tribes please, i’m dying to see you plan out a socialist way out of the mess we’re in, one that’s less unrealistic than anarchism and doesn’t involve massive reductions in emissions (they’re all equally unrealistic)
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Jul 21, 2019 04:35
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we can reduce emissions greatly right now we just don't because coal and oil companies throw a fit
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Jul 21, 2019 04:37
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step 1: kill the rich step 2: build new nuke plants and destroy the old coal/oil ones step 3: build trains step 4: watch as everything goes to poo poo anyway because we're already past the threshold for total ecological collapse no matter what step 5: scream in terror as your grandkids vote for a sensible liberal solution to the world's ills edit because I forgot to show my sig before anyone actually argues any of my points ----------------
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Jul 21, 2019 04:40
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Peanut President posted:step 1: kill the rich three out of five, and we even share step one, we are more alike than we might seem at first hand, comrade.
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Jul 21, 2019 04:58
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Flowers For Algeria posted:three out of five, and we even share step one, we are more alike than we might seem at first hand, comrade. Shut up dweeb
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Jul 21, 2019 05:00
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*Sung while squatting to poop next to a bush shortly before dying of malaria* Now don't be sad 'Cause three out of five ain't bad
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Jul 21, 2019 05:20
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I would say I’m sympathetic to anarchism but this thread is persuading me I may be a moron.
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Jul 21, 2019 05:34
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Lightning Knight posted:I would say I’m sympathetic to anarchism but this thread is persuading me I may be a moron. It’s not anarchism that’s needed. It’s authoritarian agrarianism.
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Jul 21, 2019 05:36
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Chuka Umana posted:It’s not anarchism that’s needed. It’s authoritarian agrarianism. *Eyebrow raises Plutonisly*
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Jul 21, 2019 05:48
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Pablo Nergigante posted:*Eyebrow raises Plutonisly* a Maoish gaze has been cast...
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Jul 21, 2019 05:56
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Jul 21, 2019 06:13
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Autism Sneaks posted:can't have a halfway-sane conversation about ecological leftism in CSPAM without Flowers barging in like a mud-caked street dog barking about how we should all revert to hunter-gatherer tribes we can! just not that jerk, they were not engaging in good faith if they wish to engage in good faith and not be a jerk about their poo poo, that's fine too
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Jul 21, 2019 06:18
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I'm genuinely amazed by the fact that I haven't seen any serious eco-socialist plans that involve mass reforestation using the biological remains of the oppressor classes
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Jul 21, 2019 06:53
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mmmmm uuhhhh *posts video* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9XQOOM2oY0
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Jul 21, 2019 07:03
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Technology brought us here but it's going to have to be the way out too. The problem isn't that we have technology, it's that under capitalism it will only be used for profit with no regard to the harm it causes and of course with no breaks.
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Jul 21, 2019 07:28
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somehow i dont think the dude namedropping the khmer rouge is being particularly sincere
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Jul 21, 2019 07:35
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atelier morgan posted:somehow i dont think the dude namedropping the khmer rouge is being particularly sincere they seemed genuinely interested in the HoI mod
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Jul 21, 2019 07:41
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does anyone have a screencap of when someone asked why people had a problem with strasserism, then came back and explained his only knowledge of it came from an HoI description or w/e so he had been unaware of the nazi connection i think it was from this thread
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Jul 21, 2019 08:55
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:mmmmm uuhhhh *posts video* https://youtu.be/cIMKJ43TFLs agrarianism does have a certain appeal you have to admit
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Jul 21, 2019 09:03
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Victory Position posted:we can! just not that jerk, they were not engaging in good faith okay so i always figured this thread was for shitposting and ribbing on each other’s dumb ideologies so i didn’t figure seriousposts were ever warranted. here’s my non-jerk answer i understand wanting to maintain the comforts of our current techno-industrial society. i also understand that it’s tempting to hope that a centralized (or plain old authoritarian) socialist government can make a virtuous use of technology and industry and eliminate their antisocial and ecocidal effects and i mean, irl i’m not gonna complain if some socialist government sprung up and went in damage control mode and somewhat mitigated the upcoming catastrophe. even using technological solutions (a nebulous concept) the thing is, i don’t believe in it. here’s why: technology and industry are the driving factors behind the current ecological catastrophe. not merely capitalism, with which they’re intelinked: although the profit motive has been a huge reason why new needs have been artificially created and demand has ballooned, what has kept the machine running is a bunch of polluting industrial processes. of course there’ve been technological improvements driving emissions down for such-or-such process, but they’ve only ever been used to meet increasing demand and overall emissions have never lowered through the development of new tech centralization and planification don’t change that if you don’t also question growth. peanut president suggests that America must build nuke plants and train, and that’s cool, but even if you did, and even if it supplanted coal/oil in electricity production and changed travel patterns instead of adding more electricity and more travel, that’d do nothing more bring you to the level of emissions of a rich European country like France and guess what, that’s better but still way too much plus technology and industrial production are alienating. maybe not by nature, and there are ways through which they can be conceived as liberating, but that has almost never been the case in real life. they’ve been foisted on humanity in an extremely undemocratic way, by the capitalists (and then later on by the bureaucracy) who were looking to make a quick buck and to reinforce their hold on the workforce. you can see it happen today the same way it happened in the 19th century, they call it "disrupting" sectors of the economy now. and they’re not even pretending that all this new tech is going to allows us to work less overall any more (it’s going to make you more efficient) there are plenty of ways through which technology is alienating us. i actually wasn’t joking when I mentioned illich, there’s weird naturalistic poo poo in there but the dude’s still got some pretty interesting (and visionary) critiques of the way technology threatens the environment, our own autonomy by chaining us to certain processes or products, our relationship to information and politics, and so on. so technology has alienated us, and it’s also provided the ruling class with extremely powerful tools of social control, allowed them to distract us from our alienation through false consciousness, and atomized social relations. look at the material living conditions of the proletarian American (or European) and tell me that they’re not grounds for revolution. and yet nothing’s happening, and collective action is plummeting. and then there’s the fact that no revolution is going to come soon enough. when the ecological crisis inevitably comes hitting hard (and it’s gonna be hard as balls you better believe it) and the so-called middle class starts going hungry and starts grumbling, it will already be too late to do poo poo about the ecological chaos, and technological solutions in a world with increasingly fragile supply chains and increasingly angry people aren’t going to cut it so what’s going to happen is this: consumption will go down significantly and over a loooong period of time. it can do so catastrophically within the framework of a brutal ecological crisis, and then degrowth can be imposed by tyrants of all sorts (most likely the rich are going to go at it through extremely regressive taxes in order to maintain their own privileged levels of consumption, while lambasting the poor who don’t make any effort). it can be catastrophic and then centralized and authoritarian and socialist, and but I have my doubts about how very different it would look from the previous solution given the intrinsic class nature of political power (i still prefer this solution to the previous one but ugh, tyrants). it can be centralized and kinda authoritarian and socialist and start now instead of during the crisis, with some preparatory work at building resilient communities that rely less on immediate gratification through endless consumption, and serious plans on economic reforms shutting down entire sectors of the economy. or it can be decentralized and not authoritarian and definitely socialist, and far more pacified. but that would require everyone recognizing that the last solution i presented is probably the least bad one, and that it needn’t be imposed by a centralized authority. and then everyone would spontaneously embrace it, become an anarchist and change everything about their life and voluntarily reorganize according to the Principles of Flowers. that would probably mean collectively eschewing superfluous consumption (including travel), working far less, giving up on most factory-produced goods and abolishing private property - stuff that would disproportionately affect the bourgeoisie. and once we’ve stabilized the situation collectively, we can work on the careful, democratic reintroduction of technological solutions to engineering problems, always keeping the environment in mind, and maybe we’ll get to our end goal of fully automated luxury gay space communism one day. yeah i know it’s not gonna happen. i know the bourgeoisie is going to resist and try to stay on top with lots of violence and it’s gonna suck and we’re collectively heading towards unsavory times. but it’s my vision of utopia and it’s what drives my activism
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Jul 21, 2019 09:12
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ugh
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Jul 21, 2019 09:14
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:https://youtu.be/cIMKJ43TFLs there's a kind of bizarre notion developing among these reformist DSA types that the left is not liberal so therefore it should reject social liberalism, rather than recognizing capitalism's total inability to live up to liberalism's promises. these people are treacherous and should not be trusted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raRkSdX1ItA
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Jul 21, 2019 09:16
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freckle posted:ugh okay here’s a tldr fish. the oceans are collapsing from overexploitation. there’s no real technological solution for that problem. the fishing sector is gonna have to shrink severely if it doesn’t want to collapse. we can shrink it now, spontaneously or by force. or we can let it collapse and never recover. society as a whole works the same way Flowers For Algeria fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Jul 21, 2019 |
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Jul 21, 2019 09:19
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:the gender equality stuff they've got going is also very good. dual mayor systems with a 50/50 gender ratio. go big or go home Liberalism can't even live up to its own promises teleologically.
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Jul 21, 2019 09:23
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freckle posted:ugh the gently caress are you doing in this thread anyway out
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Jul 21, 2019 09:25
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:there's a kind of bizarre notion developing among these reformist DSA types that the left is not liberal so therefore it should reject social liberalism, rather than recognizing capitalism's total inability to live up to liberalism's promises. these people are treacherous and should not be trusted. IMO, those are just fash with a different coat of paint. "socialism and rights for our guys, gently caress others" is literally benito's jam. what i'm saying is, lol if you aren't socially liberal, fiscally posadist. Pener Kropoopkin posted:Liberalism can't even live up to its own promises teleologically. liberals got dragged kicking and screaming into the equal rights discourse, but also now people with money get equaler rights, but when you bring this up, they unironically quote animal farm at you, it owns. oh, also, corporations are people somehow
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Jul 21, 2019 09:38
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Flowers For Algeria posted:okay here’s a tldr or, and this is a wild suggestion, we reduce consumption of unsustainable resources while increasing consumption of basic human needs by doing away with the inherent wastefulness of capitalist competition you're still gonna need electricity, concrete, a pharma industry and petrochemicals to some extent, not some dumb agrarian nonsense
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Jul 21, 2019 09:39
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We have to atone for using machina if we ever want to be free of Sin
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Jul 21, 2019 09:41
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 DO NOT MY FRIENDS BECOME ADDICTED TO THE COMFORTS OF INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY IT WILL TAKE HOLD OF YOU AND YOU WILL RESENT ITS ABSENCE
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Jul 21, 2019 09:43
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maybe im just saying that because im an untermensch who would have died at birth without modern surgery and would be dead inside of a month without medications or emergency medical treatment to deal with the lack thereof if you're cool with megadeaths and hiv alone being a permanently murderous spectre on society everywhere go for it i guess
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Jul 21, 2019 09:44
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culling the weak is just good socialist practice wait no not socialist. that other one
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Jul 21, 2019 09:47
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atelier morgan posted:maybe im just saying that because im an untermensch who would have died at birth without modern surgery and would be dead inside of a month without medications or emergency medical treatment to deal with the lack thereof I wanted to break them down bit by bit and read every word, but this is really the point you gently caress over disabled and hard-hit folks with this rhetoric, it just doesn't loving work
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Jul 21, 2019 09:48
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still give you the time of day tomorrow, but christ you suck
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Jul 21, 2019 09:49
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atelier morgan posted:maybe im just saying that because im an untermensch who would have died at birth without modern surgery and would be dead inside of a month without medications or emergency medical treatment to deal with the lack thereof this is literally what is going to happen if/when we decide to opt for the strategy of "business as usual but with extra technology". even getting rid of the inherent wastefulness of the capitalist mode of production is insufficient. even perfect worldwide allocation of resources under planification is insufficient, especially given the wide disparities in consumption patterns around the world that, I assume, should be remedied (or are you okay with an American still living in overwhelming luxury compared to an Iranian or an Uruguayan?). i’m not telling you to lay down in the street and die, i’m telling your countrypeople and mine to just stop consuming so much
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Jul 21, 2019 10:19
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Finicums Wake posted:does anyone have a screencap of when someone asked why people had a problem with strasserism, then came back and explained his only knowledge of it came from an HoI description or w/e so he had been unaware of the nazi connection quote:
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Jul 21, 2019 10:21
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Chuka Umana posted:It’s not anarchism that’s needed. It’s authoritarian agrarianism. robert e lee tried to warn us
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Jul 21, 2019 10:28
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:you don't throw your martyrs under the bus. that's what fascists do. you're not a fascist are you? If this is directed at me, how is asking what a specific action accomplished throwing someone under the bus? I'm not denying that what he did was brave, and we will need people to be brave enough to go up against the armed agents of the state like that, but that alone isnt going to win the war against the ruling class. we should be paying attention to things like what works, and doesn't work if we want to succeed
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Jul 21, 2019 10:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:there were no raids on the west coast because the pigs were too afraid of urban combat how much can we trace that to him though?
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Jul 21, 2019 10:34
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