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SKULL.GIF posted:Building onto this, after reading the latest chapter I'm convinced that it's going to be Shigaraki, not Deku, who ultimately kills All For One. I've been slowly coming to that conclusion as well. And it wouldn't surprise me to see the Vader/Palpatine thing going on with Shigaraki/AFO given Horikoshi's love of Star Wars.
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Jul 21, 2019 15:20
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Well, it also wouldn't be very heroic to have Deku quite literally murder someone on panel. That's the one thing where I think Deku will prove to be an actual better person than All Might- because while I'd say it's probably justified in that there probably wasn't another way he could figure out to really defeat him did violently kill AFO. AFO even mocks All Might with the idea he's a killer, and in the brief bits where we're shown him kneeling over AFO's torsoless then-corpse he doesn't seem particularly happy about what he had done. Also there's Nana's whole speech about heroism being more about "saving people's hearts" as well as their bodies. Deku is going to save Shigaraki's heart- the question is if he gets caught in the end or kills himself in some act of self-sacrifice (which I'd say is more likely since it lets him "become a hero" for a moment, like he always wanted).
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Jul 21, 2019 17:13
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I still say there's something going on with Deku's early line of "The story of how I became the greatest hero" being distinct from "#1 hero" as used throughout the rest of the story. Something big needs to happen, by his actions, that turns the whole system on its head.
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Jul 21, 2019 17:36
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deku's not gonna kill anyone in this series
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Jul 21, 2019 17:58
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It's going to be a death Vader and the emperor scenario
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Jul 21, 2019 18:02
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Jose posted:It's going to be a death Vader and the emperor scenario That can't be true, Shigaraki is way too young to be Deku's dad!
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Jul 21, 2019 18:29
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I have a real hard time imagining any sort of satisfying redemption arc for Shigaraki simply due to the arc we're reading right now. People are bringing up other redemption arcs in the series, but the thing about redeeming someone is that on some level they have to want to be redeemed. Using Endeavor and Gentle as examples - both of them recognized that what they were doing was hosed up, unpleasant, and wrong, but ultimately necessary to achieve their present goal. I think that that kind of crack in the internal justification for doing terrible poo poo is important for a redemption to feel believable. For Shigaraki, we've just had an entire character building arc for him dedicated to making him careen further and further away from that and instead down the road of "gently caress everyone die die die" to the point where he's fully and totally embraced it as his raison d'etre and the only thing that fulfills him and makes him happy. There's no hesitation or regret in him when he says "I just want to destroy everything", no higher goal that destruction is a means to achieving, no crack in that facade that could theoretically be wedged open to make him change his mind or ways. It was terrible luck and circumstances beyond his control that made him into a monster, but he's wholeheartedly embraced that part of himself and is now actively reveling in it, which I think is a pretty permanent line to cross with regards to "can this person be redeemed". Hell, bringing up the Darth Vader comparisons, even Darth Vader is shown to visibly hesitate and falter multiple times when Luke comes up - the proverbial crack I'm talking about - and as soon as Empire he's actively scheming against his boss in order to try to get his son back(albeit initially in an evil way). Meanwhile, those emotional links that could provide Shigaraki with an anchor to the time when he wasn't evil just got used as justification for him embracing his evil side.
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Jul 21, 2019 21:41
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Jose posted:It's going to be a death Vader and the emperor scenario Except instead of throwing him in a big pit, he just dissolves him where he stands.
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Jul 21, 2019 21:45
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Shigaraki really was the coolest guy.
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Jul 21, 2019 22:34
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Terper posted:Shigaraki really was the coolest guy. After Endeavor's attempt at redemption got such a cold reception from the people he was most interested in, I can't imagine Horikoshi would pull a Kishimoto. But I can't say I don't fear it happening anyways.
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Jul 21, 2019 22:37
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calling it an "attempt" implies that it's not an ongoing process
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Jul 21, 2019 22:39
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Zomborgon posted:I still say there's something going on with Deku's early line of "The story of how I became the greatest hero" being distinct from "#1 hero" as used throughout the rest of the story. Something big needs to happen, by his actions, that turns the whole system on its head. Deku's gonna find new and more horrible ways of breaking his bones, forcing criminals to stop commiting crimes because they don't want to have to watch a man shoving his shins through his fingers and snapping his ribs in the process.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:35
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Shigaraki is, in a way, more deserving of a "redemption arc" than Endeavor because he went down his path starting from a very early age, while Endeavor made his choices as an adult.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:37
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Ytlaya posted:Shigaraki is, in a way, more deserving of a "redemption arc" than Endeavor because he went down his path starting from a very early age, while Endeavor made his choices as an adult. I don't really agree. Endeavor's redemption arc stuff 1) Comes from a believable position of remorse and regret. He was pursuing a goal, didn't care who he had to hurt to achieve it, accomplished his goal, and he's found it leaves him feeling hollow. He's the #1 hero now but he's not All Might and probably never WILL be the symbol of peace he was. All he can do is look around at everything he burned along the way. I can't imagine a situation where Shigaraki, as he's portrayed now, could have such a thing, BECAUSE he's been on this path of destruction so long. Shigaraki is certainly more tragic insofar as he maybe never had a choice, but this is his only path, and I can't really concieve of him showing actual remorse or regret at what he's become. 2) Has his redemption as something to be earned rather than given. His family hates him, and rightly so. He's going to have to seriously improve as a person before his 'redemption arc bears fruit, and it may not. It'd be fine if his family never forgives him, you can't un-break some stuff, but it'd be admirable for him to try, at least. Who does Shigaraki have around him that he could earn redemption from? He's got his bros in the League of Evil, but they are fine with him how he is now. His grandmother is dead, his family is dead, All Might can't fight anymore. Deku, maybe, but he's only met that kid a handful of times. Unlike Stain, he doesn't have any particular fixation on the kid, I don't think. Shigaraki is sympathetic and understandable but he's a mass-murdering anarchist. I don't think he needs redemption, probably doesn't deserve it, and almost certainly doesn't want it.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:58
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Shigaraki has a fixation on Deku only insofar as whenever Deku shows up his plans go wrong, so he loving hates Deku.
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Jul 22, 2019 00:11
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236 official: https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/my-hero-academia-chapter-236/chapter/18625?action=read Trivia thread: https://twitter.com/CDCubed/status/1153051628829757440
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Jul 22, 2019 00:26
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Crasical posted:I don't really agree. Shigaraki doesn't "want" redemption because he was taken in as a child by the evilest man ever in order to turn him into a monster, isolating him from the rest of humanity (note how absolutely terrible Shigaraki is at interacting with... Anyone, in the beginning of the series) and actively encouraging him to hate everything and to value bad things. Using him not wanting it as a reason seems like deliberately stacking the deck against him. Perhaps appropriate, given that that's basically the theme of his life, but still unfair. Also, he is fixated on Deku enough to specifically keep his picture, to watch him at the sports festival, to tell Stain about how he wants to kill this kid specifically, and to tell the strike force at the camp to kill him if they encounter him. So. Unless he's forgotten about that in the meantime, that's probably still a thing. His plot just hasn't intersected with Deku's at all for a while. (Also anarchists aren't bad and Shiggy's not really even an anarchist except in the "not actually an anarchist" pop culture way anarchy is depicted, but that's a different tangent.) Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 01:26
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Roland Jones posted:Shigaraki doesn't "want" redemption because he was taken in as a child by the evilest man ever in order to turn him into a monster, isolating him from the rest of humanity (note how absolutely terrible Shigaraki is at interacting with... Anyone, in the beginning of the series) and actively encouraging him to hate everything and to value bad things. Using him not wanting it as a reason seems like deliberately stacking the deck against him. Perhaps appropriate, given that that's basically the theme of his life, but still unfair. You're kind of skipping over the main thrust of this arc, which is him finally recalling, with perfect clarity, all of these memories of the nightmare that made him into what he is against his will - and instead of feeling horror or regret, he feels joy and clarity for the first time since the trauma happened. This is him coming to terms with all that he was and all that he is and deciding "yeah, this is what I want to be, and this is what I want to do, of my own free will". He's got his own agency and is deciding to continue being a murdering monster that wants to destroy everything entirely of his own volition. What turn of events could make Shigaraki change his mind and seek redemption? He clearly has no qualms or regrets about causing death and suffering. He has no use for social norms and mores and in fact actively hates them. He has no emotional links to anyone outside of AfO(who is actively evil), the League members(who are all broken as hell and totally jazzed about his plan to kill everything), All Might(who he barely knows and also hates with a passion), and Deku(who he hates with a passion because Deku keeps ruining his plans to destroy everything). Given what we've seen in this chapter, even if he discovered AfO has been manipulating him this entire time, his response would likely be to try to kill AfO and then get right back to trying to destroy everything because he gets pleasure and fulfillment out of destroying things.
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Jul 22, 2019 01:50
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Edit: This wound up longer and more rambly than I meant for it to be, but I think I actually arrived at a good point there eventually. Maybe.Kanos posted:You're kind of skipping over the main thrust of this arc, which is him finally recalling, with perfect clarity, all of these memories of the nightmare that made him into what he is against his will - and instead of feeling horror or regret, he feels joy and clarity for the first time since the trauma happened. This is him coming to terms with all that he was and all that he is and deciding "yeah, this is what I want to be, and this is what I want to do, of my own free will". He's got his own agency and is deciding to continue being a murdering monster that wants to destroy everything entirely of his own volition. I'm not skipping anything. That's already addressed by what I said; AFO spent over a decade twisting him so that he'd have completely different values and desires. Of course remembering what happened before AFO wouldn't change that; besides that he already had the general idea, getting his memory back would have no reason to completely redefine his beliefs and values to be more "normal". That notion is absurd; of course remembering what happened when he was five doesn't undo the fifteen+ years of further psychological manipulation, abuse, and just general life experience he's had. Hell, given all that, it doesn't make any sense for these memories to do anything except reinforce that. For the past fifteen or more years, he's been told that he's the Symbol of Evil, that his existence is a horror that will destroy society, to the point that his name reflects the death he causes. At every turn, both his allies and enemies have told him that he's nothing and can do nothing but destroy. He was given the remains of his family, told he murdered them, and instructed to hold on to those feelings and keep the reminders of his actions with him at all times and never let the pain go. And he accepts this, but at the same time is plagued by the fractured memories and constant, nagging pain and anger and other feelings and he doesn't know why. Then he remembers everything, all at once, about how he did in fact kill almost everyone he loved by accident, then after his father attacked him deliberately killed him, and about how prior to that how his father abused him and how no one stood up for him. What can he draw from that, other than, "Ah, they were right, I am here to do nothing but destroy"? It's "proof" that his "teacher", that all his detractors and antagonists and victims, they were all correct about him, and that he's right about how terrible and worthy of destruction the world is. It's a relief, because now he finally knows what he's "supposed" to do: Exactly what his master, what his enemies, what society says he should do. He's going to destroy it. It's not good, obviously, but I was addressing the idea that him not "wanting" redemption is reason that he "shouldn't" get it. What chance did he ever have of wanting it, without outside influence at least? Maybe if someone else had gotten to Shimura Tenko first, or if All Might had found him when he first "beat" AFO, but he's spent so long basically doing whatever AFO wanted him to do and only just got out of that, and he's still mentally a child, as the heroes pointed out after USJ. Acting like that's some moral failing of his, while at the same time trying to argue that the rapist and child abuser does (or at least could) deserve redemption, doesn't sit well with me. Like, compare Shiggy to Eri, since her story is almost exactly the same; her mutant quirk killed (some of) her family, her parental figure rejected her and treated her as a monster, and the person who took her in used her towards his own ends and psychologically abused her, telling her that she could do nothing but hurt people, with the primary differences being that AFO presented that stuff as a positive and pretended to be a good "father" to his adoptive child, and that someone actually rescued her. If that didn't happen, or if she was rescued later in her life, at what point would she become "irredeemable"? After she completely internalized Overhaul's story that she's nothing but a blight on humanity? If/when she started going along with what he wanted to do for reasons other than fear of him? The first time she intentionally erased someone? When she became legally an adult despite being denied pretty much anything that's required for someone to actually grow as a person? If she were rescued but didn't shake Overhaul's hold on her so quickly, would it no longer be worth it to try? Never mind that Deku and Mirio had no connection to her at all and saved her by being the people who tried to save her, and that was enough, because the idea of trying to save people just because they need to be saved is central to this series and one of the most important ideas in it. (And also that some posts are conflating redemption, being saved in the spiritual/moral sense from evil, with forgiveness, which is a separate thing entirely unless you think that you literally can't be a good person without the people you hurt acknowledging you as such. Neither Enji nor Shigaraki need to be forgiven in order to be redeemed, and they arguably shouldn't be, even if either or both become genuinely good people somehow, because holy gently caress do they have some atrocities under their belts, albeit of wildly different sorts. None of their victims are obligated to forgive them, even if they do actually change, but at the same time them changing isn't conditional on that forgiveness.) People are acting like Shigaraki's his own person now and is willfully embracing evil, but... He isn't, really. He's still under AFO's manipulation; the guy spent over a decade shaping and molding him to be his successor, specifically with the goal of making him into someone who'd continue his work after he was gone, and, obviously, that is still influencing him. He's been free of All For One for, what, a few months at this point? That's not enough time to undo years and years of abuse and manipulation, especially since he possibly hasn't even realized that he was abused and manipulated by All For One. Though he's come a long way in that little time; he's, again, still pretty much an overgrown child, but he's already gone from "I hate everyone and everything and will attack my allies because they pissed me off, if I stop scratching myself bloody at least" to actually genuinely valuing his allies, thinking about what they want, and making room for them in his horrible death world he wants to create. Obviously it's all hosed up, because he's surrounded by villains and thus the positive influence from them is kind of limited in the things it can apply to, plus, again, it's only been a few months and expecting a complete transformation in that time would be ludicrous. Still, no longer having AFO looming over him has had major effects; unless I'm forgetting something, he's even stopped excoriating himself, a habit he developed under one abusive father figure and continued under the other. Not compulsively self-harming is a pretty positive sign, I would think. I'm not saying that Shigaraki is or will necessarily become a good person. [Edit: Or, I guess I kind of am.] At the least, that's going to be a long way in the future and likely near the end of the series, with a whole lot between then and now. However, the idea that, because he was and still is All For One's pawn, he can't, should not, and/or doesn't "deserve" to be redeemed, is kind of gross to me, especially when put alongside the Endeavor stuff. It's also against the themes of the series itself, and is in a way arguing that All For One, of all people, is right. He took Shimura Tenko in because he's a sneering villain who wanted to make All Might hurt, to laugh in his face about how he took the last living relative of someone he cared about and turned them into a monster who hates him, and there's nothing he nor anyone else can do about that. Hell, now that I'm writing this, I'm starting to think that redeeming Shigaraki in some manner is almost essential to the end of the series, as a final way of "beating" All For One, because otherwise, he still wins. It'd be the final, ultimate refutation of his actions, ideology, and legacy, a way of defeating him that mere force could never do. And even if All Might can't do it, maybe the "greatest hero" to be, who's been spending the whole series saving people thought beyond saving (and often from horrible abusive father figures at that, now that I think about it), can. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 03:02
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Kanos posted:Given what we've seen in this chapter, even if he discovered AfO has been manipulating him this entire time, his response would likely be to try to kill AfO and then get right back to trying to destroy everything because he gets pleasure and fulfillment out of destroying things. This is pretty much I concluded in my post at the end of the last page, yeah -- Shigaraki will kill AFO and will be the "final boss" for MHA. It all lines up way too cleanly for it to not be the case, and we're far enough into the story that I doubt we'll get a Kaguya tier "twist". Roland Jones posted:Hell, now that I'm writing this, I'm starting to think that redeeming Shigaraki in some manner is almost essential to the end of the series, as a final way of "beating" All For One, because otherwise, he still wins. It'd be the final, ultimate refutation of his actions, ideology, and legacy, a way of defeating him that mere force could never do. And even if All Might can't do it, maybe the "greatest hero" to be, who's been spending the whole series saving people thought beyond saving (and often from horrible abusive father figures at that, now that I think about it), can. And speaking of "lining up way too cleanly", if you look at what Deku's done with people like Todoroki, Kota, and Shinso, extending that to Shigaraki would indeed be a truly heroic feat. At the same time I don't see any path here for Shigaraki to actually go through with this and be "redeemed", he'll just turn onto Deku shortly after and be defeated.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:08
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I'm willing to believe that Shigaraki is at least somewhat projecting onto his past self based on the path AfO led him down later. He's clearly in a really hosed up head space...most of the time, but especially now. He's borderline delirious from lack of sleep, hallucinating, and just lost part of his hand. He's miserable right now and compounding it by reliving his worst memory. I mean, why else would he subconsciously lock that way from himself? His first reaction after hearing he killed his whole family was still revulsion. It's only later after being groomed by AfO that he's reveling in it. That's probably too affirmative a case for Shigaraki's redemption, though. At the very least he would need to get to a point where he's reevaluating that memory and finding it awful, but I have no idea how he would actually get to that point.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:13
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SKULL.GIF posted:This is pretty much I concluded in my post at the end of the last page, yeah -- Shigaraki will kill AFO and will be the "final boss" for MHA. It all lines up way too cleanly for it to not be the case, and we're far enough into the story that I doubt we'll get a Kaguya tier "twist". I think the seeds are already there, really. We've seen that he used to be a lot like Deku; he wanted to be a hero despite being told he couldn't. But instead of All Might finding him at his lowest point, All For One did. But those desires are still there somewhere; as I've posted before, he's already basically a "hero to villains" in a genuinely (sort of) positive way. And, as with Todoroki, and Shinso, and Gentle, that desire to be a hero, to help people, means a lot in this series, even if it was long forgotten. In My Hero Academia, that desire alone is important, and Shigaraki had it, and possibly even still has it on some level, and in a purer way than some of the heroes we've seen even, since he wanted to help people and give them a place to belong rather than just be a cool winner like Bakugou, who for all his assholery is presented as unquestionably a hero-to-be. And, again, he's actually doing that, even if it's in a warped manner; Gentle was the same, his "gentlemanly villainy" basically being not-particularly-violent vigilantism with a coat of paint on it. It'll be a long path if it happens, I agree, and speculating beyond the broad strokes is probably pointless for anything more than fun, but there is a route there for Shigaraki, by the logic of the series and the themes it presents. RatHat posted:Just noticed the mole finally appears this chapter. Art mistake or hint that either everything in the flashback before this is fake memories, or that this chapter is a fake memory? Given that this chapter also turned his hair white, it might be connected to that? I'm not sure. It definitely appears partway through this and stays after that, though, so it's almost certainly intentional rather than an oversight. I'm thinking the broad strokes of this are still accurate, at least. If anything's papered over, it's probably just AFO having a hand in him getting or activating the quirk somehow, rather than it all being a complete fabrication. Maybe him being there and getting Tenko out before other people arrive or something, so he can still make his later appearance as their "first" meeting. Covering up his involvement in it, not making things up entirely, basically. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 03:20
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Just noticed the mole finally appears this chapter. Art mistake or hint that either everything in the flashback before this is fake memories, or that this chapter is a fake memory?
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Jul 22, 2019 03:20
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Shigaraki doesn't, and won't want to be saved. That's what makes Deku doing it eventually worthy of such praise, and what will have him surpass All Might, who could not save AfO.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:23
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What exactly would it mean to "save" or "redeem" Shigaraki anyway? What does that look like when it happens in the future, after he's killed however many more people?
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Jul 22, 2019 03:28
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Viridiant posted:What exactly would it mean to "save" or "redeem" Shigaraki anyway? What does that look like when it happens in the future, after he's killed however many more people? Ultimately Shigaraki dies. Whether or not it's with remorse over what he's done is whether he's redeemed or not.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:31
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Viridiant posted:What exactly would it mean to "save" or "redeem" Shigaraki anyway? What does that look like when it happens in the future, after he's killed however many more people? I guess this might be what I'm getting stuck on. Regardless of how and why Shigaraki is the way he is, he's murdered a shitload of people, is currently murdering a shitload of people, and will continue to murder a shitload of people. As of this arc he and his accomplices are going to be directly guilty of actively murdering an entire god damned city. Like when they're done here this entire city is going to be a ghost town. It doesn't matter if they were goaded into coming here(the goad applied to them was the threat of being brought to justice for their previous crimes), they're still doing it. What does a "Shigaraki is redeemed" arc look like that doesn't involve Shigaraki either safely dead or being "redeemed" while sitting permanently in a prison cell for his almost incomprehensible list of crimes? Even a Shigaraki death redemption would feel so weird and hollow to me. "Wow, Deku, you're a real cool kid. Thanks for trying to save me while you punched me to stop me from doing all those murders. I feel real bad about those murders now. *dies*" I think Shigaraki confronting his nightmarish past and then deciding to accept it and become a monster through his own free will anyway is a much more compelling arc than blaming everything on AfO and robbing him of all agency like he's some kind of wooden puppet incapable of thought and analysis. Kanos fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 03:32
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I'm still thinking about that trio of Shinso-Todoroki-Kota that Deku saves. That's a trifecta of Rejection, Abuse, and Abandonment. Guess which character all 3 traits apply to?
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Jul 22, 2019 03:34
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I don't think there's an end point for shigaraki that isn't him dead or in jail. lotta villains in media do the redemption in death thing but I don't think we're getting reformed shigaraki as gran torino said, shigaraki has done terrible things. he's a criminal and you can't just handwave that and have a satisfying conclusion to his arc
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Jul 22, 2019 03:35
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Jul 22, 2019 03:40
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Viridiant posted:What exactly would it mean to "save" or "redeem" Shigaraki anyway? What does that look like when it happens in the future, after he's killed however many more people? Him willingly going to jail for his crimes, probably. It wouldn't be Shigaraki is and always was a good person, it will be Shigaraki recognising his idealogy was wrong, in much the same way Endeavour realised his actions towards his family were monstrous. Basically if we get Izuku redeeming Shigaraki it will be along the lines of just because you have done all these horrible things doesn't mean you cannot change paths and do the right thing, in this case turning yourself in because you have in fact killed an absolute poo poo-ton of people. Again, Redemption does not equal Forgiveness or Reformation, if you look at the original context it is a form of absolution and sublimation. Realisation that you have done wrong and submitting yourself to a higher judgement for your crimes is a form of redemption, one that generally ends with punishment but still.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:41
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Viridiant posted:What exactly would it mean to "save" or "redeem" Shigaraki anyway? What does that look like when it happens in the future, after he's killed however many more people? 
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Jul 22, 2019 03:41
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SKULL.GIF posted:Ultimately Shigaraki dies. Whether or not it's with remorse over what he's done is whether he's redeemed or not. This is a better and harder question. As I said, the idea of writing him off when he's been on AFO's strings the entire series and never got a chance doesn't sit well with me, and the comic's themes suggest something like that should happen, but the exact form it would take is hard to imagine. Some people suggested a realization of what he is and a heroic sacrifice, but I don't think that'll be it, myself. It wouldn't really "save" him, except maybe in a religious sense or something, so that'd be a pretty unsatisfying way to do it. And he can't completely avoid consequences, given what he's done. But, some sort of turnaround and act of genuine heroism, likely saving lives instead of ending them, seems like a good bet to me, especially considering the Tenko one-shot and the emphasis on how the main character's power there wasn't one of death. If circumstances prevent Shiggy from being arrested right away and his actions for the benefit of good last beyond a single action and involve genuine hardship and sacrifice on his part (again, other than his life, though if it's more than just the one moment it might work out better than "I'm good now, guess I'll die"), that might help. As I said before, it's likely so far in the future that speculating beyond the broad strokes is probably fruitless, but there are a few things I think are either mandatory or likely. First, he needs to remember his desire to be a hero and such; that's just, like, how the series does this kind of thing. Second, he is probably going to act on that in some way, which will also be instrumental to All For One's complete defeat. He might kill AFO, but I think it might actually be more satisfying if he doesn't, both to show that Tenko has changed; to hit that "this is not a power that kills" note and show he's capable of more than destruction, contrary to what society and everyone in and outside of it have told him; and because it means AFO gets to live with the knowledge of how complete his failure truly is. And, hopefully, he doesn't die, because again that's kind of a copout and also a big cliche at this point. After that, though... Maybe he surrenders himself to the consequences, or maybe he flees but goes vigilante in a non-murder-y way. Or maybe his death gets faked and he's given a second chance that way; given that he's AFO's victim as much as anyone, his life being effectively over even if it literally isn't wouldn't be satisfying, but there's no way in hell he wouldn't be arrested if law enforcement learned he was alive, which prevents him from having a normal life at least. Manatee Cannon posted:I don't think there's an end point for shigaraki that isn't him dead or in jail. lotta villains in media do the redemption in death thing but I don't think we're getting reformed shigaraki I said this before, but I think that we're not supposed to agree with Gran Torino there. Another major theme of the series is society writing off people who fell through the cracks and that being bad, and that's exactly what he's doing there. MHA is fundamentally idealistic and about "saving" people and how important it is to try even when everyone else wouldn't, so Shigaraki being the exception when his story is that he needed to be saved more than anyone wouldn't fit. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 03:49
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Yeah, I really don't see how the story could turn itself around at this point and give Shiggy anything resembling a redemption arc. Sometimes life gives someone a poo poo hand, maybe two, and sometimes those hands also destroy everything around them. Shiggy is just too far down the rabbit hole for me to think he'll decide that he's done anything wrong and want help. Someone earlier said it best; when Shiggy was destroying his family even if a hero had shown up there wouldn't be anything that person could have said/done to really stop shiggy. And after all these years of momentum building up, I can't really see an ending where any feeling of Remorse crosses this guys mind.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:55
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I dunno, Vegeta has killed way too many people while he was working for Frieza. He could never be redeemed.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:59
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Begemot posted:I dunno, Vegeta has killed way too many people while he was working for Frieza. He could never be redeemed. Vegeta wasn't redeemed. Everyone just kinda forgot about his poo poo It's one of the major, if not the major, writing flaws with Dragonball.
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Jul 22, 2019 04:01
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Begemot posted:I dunno, Vegeta has killed way too many people while he was working for Frieza. He could never be redeemed. If it's offscreen it doesn't count.
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Jul 22, 2019 04:03
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Begemot posted:I dunno, Vegeta has killed way too many people while he was working for Frieza. He could never be redeemed. he was a bad person and he died for it. twice. if he wasn't punished for being a dick then it wouldn't have been satisfying when he stopped being one. you have actual, irrefutable evidence that he'd changed at the end of the series because of the wish that brought him back to life also lol at comparing dragon ball morality to anything else Roland Jones posted:I said this before, but I think that we're not supposed to agree with Gran Torino there. Another major theme of the series is society writing off people who fell through the cracks and that being bad, and that's exactly what he's doing there. MHA is fundamentally idealistic and about "saving" people and how important it is to try even when everyone else wouldn't, so Shigaraki being the exception when his story is that he needed to be saved more than anyone wouldn't fit. well you're writing off the things that shigaraki, as an adult, has done. he's not a kid even if he acted like one at the start. there needs to be consequences to his actions, which have all been destructive. he's killed people and will continue to kill people, likely for a long time to come like I said, he's probably gonna end up in jail or dead because shigaraki walking free would be some legit bullshit. you can have deku save him but he can't be vegeta. the rules are just too different
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Jul 22, 2019 04:07
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Roland Jones posted:After that, though... Maybe he surrenders himself to the consequences, or maybe he flees but goes vigilante in a non-murder-y way. I know this probably wasn't what you were going for, but you gave me the mental image of Shigaraki joining Koichi's team and it's so hilarious I can't stop thinking about it. It's never happening but I'd be perfectly fine with this. SKULL.GIF posted:Vegeta wasn't redeemed. Everyone just kinda forgot about his poo poo That's...so far from the case it makes me wonder if you even know what you're talking about. Vegeta is absolutely redeemed, but Toriyama isn't poo poo enough to go "he's the coolest guy!" and forgive his misdeeds. Cell Saga Vegeta is far from redeemed, he's hated by everyone around him and viceversa, but it's either that or get murdered by him and he has bigger fish to fry. Pretty much the entire arc until the Time Chamber is the series showing exactly how far Vegeta is from a good person and him getting curbstomped for it, repeatedly and hilariously. He only really changes once he can have a heart to heart with his son (who he was perfectly fine with killing before this) and even there he's still dodgy, it's seeing said son die that finally serves to break him out of his mindset and have him care for someone else. And even that's just the start, it's that plus Bulma's love, plus his sacrifice against Buu that seals it, and that sacrifice comes from him falling into his old personality again after settling down with his family, and then realizing that he genuinely cared for his family and even that dumb Kakarot more than he cared for himself. This completely selfless sacrifice is followed by him being sent straight to Hell for all he did before, something Piccolo (half of whom was literally God) tells him to his face before he does, and he's completely accepting of this. And even there it takes until Battle of Gods, which is decades later from his first appearance both in reality and in-series, for the rest of the characters to finally accept him as one of their own. And even there one of the biggest points of the current arc is Vegeta going back to Namek and making up for his past misdeeds there, where he's told to his face that he'll never be forgiven, but the Namekians aren't willing to live by hate. Vegeta's redemption is a long, hard path but it's absolutely there. And I'm glad it's long because his misdeeds really are too big for redemption in any series where life has a greater meaning. This is Dragon Ball though so life is kind of meaningless, and even there this much was necessary to avoid him getting Kishimoto'd into good guydom.
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Jul 22, 2019 04:25
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Manatee Cannon posted:well you're writing off the things that shigaraki, as an adult, has done. he's not a kid even if he acted like one at the start. there needs to be consequences to his actions, which have all been destructive. he's killed people and will continue to kill people, likely for a long time to come He's a manchild, is the problem. AFO deliberately stunted his growth and encouraged a very childlike view of the world and understanding of things, and probably tried to squash out any empathy and such he might have developed as well. Judging him as a fully capable adult doesn't work, because he isn't one; he's a traumatized and possibly mentally-ill individual who was probably cut off from interaction with any humans besides AFO and the doctor for almost his entire life and deliberately kept from growing up mentally; he probably wouldn't be considered fit to stand trial in some places. Plus, his life trajectory being "abused child > abused pawn of AFO > arrested after realizing he was a bad guy" wouldn't be satisfying, because he wouldn't really be "saved"; it'd just cement that his life is completely unfair and was not once in his own control. The possibility of change and doing better seems to be part of MHA's idea of "saving" people; Gentle, despite how hugely he hosed up, was explicitly told that he could rebuild his life and all that. He's obviously orders of magnitude less evil than Shiggy, it's still the closest to precedent that we have for villainous redemption, and fits with Todoroki and Shinso's post-saving trajectories as well. I'm not expecting him to go full Vegeta, but him dying or spending the rest of his life in jail would make any notions of saving him ring false and might be worse than not bothering at all. Blaze Dragon posted:I know this probably wasn't what you were going for, but you gave me the mental image of Shigaraki joining Koichi's team and it's so hilarious I can't stop thinking about it. I haven't read much Vigilantes actually, but that would be hilarious, and also is definitely not happening. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jul 22, 2019 |
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Jul 22, 2019 04:30
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