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Socks4Hands posted:i think he was angling more along the line of fnox and racism doesn't exist and please invade my country To be fair fnox (and M. Discordia to boot) were always right wing. I was referring to almost all the other Venezuelans in the thread, such as Labradoodle, Chuck Boone, and others. That isn't to say that fnox and M. Discordia still don't h ave their points, but it makes them look rather weak when they consider Barrack Obama part of "the international left".
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Jul 24, 2019 00:55
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punk rebel ecks posted:To be fair fnox (and M. Discordia to boot) were always right wing. I was referring to almost all the other Venezuelans in the thread, such as Labradoodle, Chuck Boone, and others. I have some sympathy for fnox's brain being broken by the destruction of his country - heck, there are posters who have called for the US to be invaded over Trump 
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Jul 24, 2019 00:57
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I have some sympathy for fnox's brain being broken by the destruction of his country - heck, there are posters who have called for the US to be invaded over Trump the real power socialist move is for Xi to declare Bernie the rightful American president and invade the US
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Jul 24, 2019 01:12
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I'm not sure how the events in Venezuela vindicated the American posters making it about anti-imperialism. Have some self-awareness and not make a foreign protest movement all about your personal politics especially when some of the posters ITT are actively involved in the movement.
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Jul 24, 2019 01:32
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The fact that Americans shouldn't be involved was the entire point, friend.
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Jul 24, 2019 01:36
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Lady Galaga posted:People ITT who think China is a socialist paradise don't live in China you'll also find itt that nobody says its a socialist paradise
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Jul 24, 2019 02:08
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Darkest Auer posted:That's just the thing, those posters have actually lived in China why would i lie about living here weirdo. you really should just stick to those festering threads full of racist pricks punk rebel ecks posted:To be fair fnox (and M. Discordia to boot) were always right wing. I was referring to almost all the other Venezuelans in the thread, such as Labradoodle, Chuck Boone, and others. That isn't to say that fnox and M. Discordia still don't h ave their points, but it makes them look rather weak when they consider Barrack Obama part of "the international left". they also consider juan guaido part of the "international left" lol
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Jul 24, 2019 02:19
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Why do people want to discuss communism in a China thread? Thats when you know the guy doesn't know jack poo poo about China beyond "Huawei/Dalai lama/Colonizing africa/South China Sea/Smog"
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Jul 24, 2019 02:32
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Darkman Fanpage posted:you'll also find itt that nobody says its a socialist paradise im sorry for hurting the feelings of you and 1.4 billion chinese people
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Jul 24, 2019 03:07
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Lady Galaga posted:im sorry for hurting the feelings of you and 1.4 billion chinese people okay dude
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Jul 24, 2019 03:21
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Darkman Fanpage posted:okay dude he's basically an automaton that repeats gbs memes, he'll tire himself out eventually
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Jul 24, 2019 03:33
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sorry for not discussing the intricacies of the communist state and how it pursues the socialist agenda while there is political turmoil and triads roaming the streets every night in my city its all good man, the legend of karl marx is being kept alive here. please continue to discuss when the bourgeoisie will be hanged
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Jul 24, 2019 03:52
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Darkman Fanpage posted:you'll also find itt that nobody says its a socialist paradise actually
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Jul 24, 2019 03:56
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SKULL.GIF posted:It's difficult to engage with that post because so much of it hinges on assuming best intentions, and even then parts of it don't really hold up to scrutiny. Why does the leader of a government that runs a panopticon and disappears executives need to play nice with the pampered bourgeoisie? Even if assuming best intentions wasn't a problem and it did seem like the best intentions were what the party actually had it mind, it doesn't make much sense. I can't see how it's not reformism, but in a government that is supposedly already socialist. It's not Marxist at best and disingenuous at worst. The party does things that are against building a properly socialist state, and people defend it as if that's part of the process at the expense of actual revolutionaries, and isolate it from the effect it has now, in people's lives. Like the situation with student Maoists, or workers collectivizing, some people argued the party was justified in its crackdowns because Chinese law allows them to, that because the party had the legal authority it was right to do so. Whether it was good for China/the Chinese people/building socialism wasn't addressed, just that the party's authority to make and enforce those laws makes it justified no matter what. I can see that kind of thinking making some sense if you actually believe every action the party makes is calculated towards bringing about real socialism but we have years of seeing how untrue that premise is and how much it costs Chinese people in some very anti-socialist ways. I want to be charitable with how I read people here. Sometimes I feel like that's the real bad faith arguing though, that it doesn't matter what's good or bad in any real framework. Just "China has to be good because I have been arguing for China because that's what us Marxists do, so this thing the party did is right. Have a twitter post." And so you get arguments that "this is clearly good for building socialism" when it doesn't seem like it really is. Then there was the whole social credit argument which was dumb as hell. The "What will Xi do?" over "What will the party do?" stuff is just a result of half the people not really having any other sense of the Chinese government at anything other than at the highest level. Small, local Chinese politics does exist, and their relationship with Beijing is probably a more important part of people's lives than what people in this thread talk about. It's hard to get a clear picture of it anyways unless you're actually involved in it, but from the experience I've had seeing it (which I'll be honest is only one place, through the lens of two people involved in it.) it can be corrupt as gently caress and specifically undermines any actual socialist policies to benefit certain people. And Beijing is absolutely unwilling to help in the slightest. Everyone would be way better off just shitposting constantly. BrainDance has issued a correction as of 04:17 on Jul 24, 2019 |
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Jul 24, 2019 04:11
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it would seem like blindly following a single party who's Confucianist authoritarian values override it's face-value socialist ones, spending significant resources to squash free speech and promote propaganda, is not a good thing
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Jul 24, 2019 04:26
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BrokenGameboy posted:I just lurk this thread, but can you rephrase everything you said after the YouTube link. I can follow you up to that point, but for some reason my brain won't let me understand after it. Sorry.
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Jul 24, 2019 05:09
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2 nights after the indiscriminate triad attacks in Yuen Long, mainland news spin it as local village defenders against black shirt invaders and now two bao sells this  a “natural rattan cane discipline stick. save Hong Kong, protect yuen long buy 2 get 1 free” You guys always talk about compromising foreign opinions and lovely CIA - but this is just loving bullshit. Yes I US foreign intervention like the Iraq war and death squads are bad, but Hong Kong? Hong Kong right now is just like early post 50s of China - slowly remove all the other parties in Congress, hallow out other parties and enact a proxy party through DAB - with people who served during the 1967 riots and got a medal after the hand over
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Jul 24, 2019 05:20
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BrainDance posted:Even if assuming best intentions wasn't a problem and it did seem like the best intentions were what the party actually had it mind, it doesn't make much sense. I can't see how it's not reformism, but in a government that is supposedly already socialist. It's not Marxist at best and disingenuous at worst. why does every single one of these longposts have a list of bullet points clearly curated from the hot topics in the western corporate press. everybody's choice of issues to highlight comes from a list of a half dozen or so things that get hammered regularly in the pages of the nyt, wapo, wsj or on the airwaves of cnn, msnbc, john oliver, you name it. the choice of issues of greatest concern vary but it all comes down to "china bad" in the end. everybody — and i mean everybody, that includes the people who occasionally make pro-china posts here and anywhere — is just tailing the narrative that gets spun by major media outlets. the difference is the "defenders" or "apologists" are rebutting or debunking it and the rest are taking it as a given. we're all being led around by the ears and pretending we're right-thinking rationalists on our own independent paths. it's incredibly transparent and i don't have an answer for it but i would ask at least, for the love of god, think about this stuff critically for one second. supplementing this tendency with anecdotes via gbs or your limited personal experience does not make anyone's perspective authoritative, including mine.
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Jul 24, 2019 06:59
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BrainDance posted:Like the situation with student Maoists, or workers collectivizing, some people argued the party was justified in its crackdowns because Chinese law allows them to, that because the party had the legal authority it was right to do so. Whether it was good for China/the Chinese people/building socialism wasn't addressed, just that the party's authority to make and enforce those laws makes it justified no matter what. all right, let's address it then: preventing another Kronstadt is in the interests of building socialism
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Jul 24, 2019 07:05
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Peasants are an unfortunate casualty in the advance of communism, it seems.
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Jul 24, 2019 07:16
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reposting about the bill: Oh and R. Guyovich always wanted to ask you about this extradition bill, since you mentioned it as a major oversight to have this loophole and mismanagement of the political administration to cause this poo poo storm 1. What do you think of enacting a one time sunset clause to send the murderer to Taiwan? 2. Or making murder a extraterritorial crime? 3. How do you feel about the abducted book sellers like Gui Min Hai, Lee Bo, Lam Wing Kee? They wrote scandalous gossip books about our current leader, should they be taken to China?
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Jul 24, 2019 07:18
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vulgar fetishization of any and all groupings of workers being organized for any goal is incredibly stupid. what are their demands? what effect will those demands have? in a post-revolutionary scenario what are the alternatives to their particular course of action? is a peasant-organized pogrom suddenly good because they're peasants? it's an extreme example but use your loving head. in chile, poland and many other places "independent" groupings of workers, even genuine ones, were used to undermine and fracture socialist projects.
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Jul 24, 2019 07:20
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Grapplejack posted:Peasants are an unfortunate casualty in the advance of communism, it seems.
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Jul 24, 2019 07:21
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caberham posted:reposting by the already existing extradition law in china murder IS an extraterritorial crime. per the proposed bill actionable offenses have to be law in both jurisdictions and carry a minimum penalty of seven years in prison. a one-time clause would solve the immediate problem but the greater issue would still stand. if indeed the booksellers were subject to extraordinary rendition then putting in place a legal process with oversight mechanisms seems like the best way to keep that from happening again.
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Jul 24, 2019 07:24
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R. Guyovich posted:by the already existing extradition law in china murder IS an extraterritorial crime. Not in Hong Kong, legislators tried to have the government of Hong Kong introduce the bill to make murder an extraterritorial crime and the government refused. Other pro government legislators like DAB remained silent but the pro government pro business liberal party also advocated for this expansion. Only the government of Hong Kong can officially initiate legislation of laws which affects Hong Kong government policy. quote:per the proposed bill actionable offenses have to be law in both jurisdictions and carry a minimum penalty of seven years in prison. a one-time clause would solve the immediate problem but the greater issue would still stand. Right now the bill is suspended, dead but still not withdrawn. If it is suspended or as good as dead or whatever non existent term, why not enact one time legislation right now to send the murderer back to Taiwan? The Basic Law committee during the 1980s explicitly avoided adding China to the list of countries because of the lack of protections and different legal system. It’s not like this city has a constant stream of murderers or criminals hiding in Hong Kong. This is the first case since 23 years after the hand over. quote:if indeed the booksellers were subject to extraordinary rendition then putting in place a legal process with oversight mechanisms seems like the best way to keep that from happening again. it’s not an if. They were abducted. even if this law is enacted, how will the book sellers be sent to China? For printing books? Libel doesn’t carry 7 years in Hong Kong. if this bill was really for justice, then 1. why water down from 45 to 37 clauses? 2. why not add a clause that those extradited have a right to an open fair trial with representation?
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Jul 24, 2019 07:45
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SKULL.GIF posted:It's difficult to engage with that post because so much of it hinges on assuming best intentions, and even then parts of it don't really hold up to scrutiny. Why does the leader of a government that runs a panopticon and disappears executives need to play nice with the pampered bourgeoisie? they wouldn't need to play nice if china was the only landmass on earth, but since there's an entire international capitalist hegemony to reckon with just instantly sending anyone making more than X in profits per year to siberia is a much trickier proposition
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Jul 24, 2019 08:11
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Lightning Knight posted:the real power socialist move is for Xi to declare Bernie the rightful American president and invade the US Aliexpress now exclusively delivers to one of the only legitimate US president's three houses.
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Jul 24, 2019 08:26
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funnily enough rural people by and large benefited from reform and opening up, since it meant they were no longer subsidizing the urban population's food supply. caberham posted:if this bill was really for justice, then 1. china's extradition agreement with france means they have to guarantee the subject won't receive a death sentence. conditions are common in these agreements. it was watered down to appease business elites who complained about the number of financial crimes covered by the law, which sucks, i agree. the mainland is a lot tougher on those offenses. 2. because that's editorializing through legislation. clearly china believes its legal system is fair.
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Jul 24, 2019 08:29
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tino posted:Why do people want to discuss communism in a China thread? Thats when you know the guy doesn't know jack poo poo about China beyond "Huawei/Dalai lama/Colonizing africa/South China Sea/Smog" CCP is the most prominent organization in the world that openly considers itself communist and a further developer of marxism. Every socialist is basically forced have a stance on its vision unless their socialism is devoid of actual politics. A thread where the reality of Chinese affairs is discussed is a pretty natural place for evaluating their vision as well. Grapplejack posted:Peasants are an unfortunate casualty in the advance of communism, it seems. In short, yes. Peasants are an unfortunate casualty of developmentalist policy in general. The basic facts are that the pace of industrial development is dependent on the pace of production of means of production as well as the pace of driving peasants into the workforce, and that to produce more means of production one needs to produce less consumption goods, which ultimately means that the peasant consumer base must be either impoverished in terms of money or have otherwise limited access to goods. A country isolated from international markets is very dependent on that process and a country suffering from foreign exploitation (a large portion of industrial profits exiting the country), which has been the case for China since opening up, is doubly dependent on it. Basically the only way to avoid the necessity would be massive and genuinely favorable foreign assistance, which is not a realistic expectation without a large amount of thriving socialist countries already existing as a healthy international community. The marxist conception of communism requires a level of industrial development that has transformed people from independent proprietors into workers producing for others' needs and dependent on acquiring others' products. Either capitalism has already forced it on the people or socialism has to. We may see Zapatista-style immediate indigenous and peasant socialism as more desirable on principle but until the world economy is switched to basis that isn't dependent on the exploitation of workers and nature, it can only exist in small cracks where it's temporarily defensible from the brand of developmentalism that imperialism tries to impose.
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Jul 24, 2019 08:30
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Please address the other points as well, I will designate with letters, thank you.caberham posted:Not in Hong Kong, legislators tried to have the government of Hong Kong introduce the bill to make murder an extraterritorial crime and the government refused. Other pro government legislators like DAB remained silent but the pro government pro business liberal party also advocated for this expansion. A. The murderer is still in Hong Kong. quote:The Basic Law committee during the 1980s explicitly avoided adding China to the list of countries because of the lack of protections and different legal system. B. The omission of extradition to PRC drafted by the Basic Law Committee quote:it’s not an if. They were abducted. C. Book sellers Political Crimes are not supposed to be charged, but Gui Min Hai was abducted in Thailand and reappeared in China. He is Ethnic Chinese holding a Swiss passport but is regarded as a Chinese PRC citizen. He confessed on phoenix television that he is guilty of a traffic accident many years ago and returned to China - coincidentally when all other book sellers are abducted. He is not charged with any political crimes, in fact China does not really charge people over political crimes. It's always tax evasion, traffic accident, etc. quote:if this bill was really for justice, then D. On justice Which you have responded, thank you R. Guyovich posted:
D1. At the end of the day, France can refuse extradition. Can Hong Kong government refuse extradition to PRC? The government proposed a few gate keepers https://www.sb.gov.hk/eng/special/cooperation/Q&A/FOO%202nd_booklet_EN.pdf D1A - The courts - However, courts in HK can only look at the face of the extradition order and can not investigate the details. If it was a valid order issued from PRC, courts must green light the extradition. D1B - The Chief Executive - The Chief Executive, the election committee is hand picked by PRC and aligned interests with PRC. Can the Chief Executive Refuse? This bill can't even be withdrawn and is only suspended. Does HK really have that kind of autonomy in reality? These two points were also highlighted by the Hong Kong Barristers Association. quote:2. because that's editorializing through legislation. clearly china believes its legal system is fair. Random train passengers just got terrorized on their way back home in Yuen Long. They are triads affiliated with the DAB and China Affairs Liason office. China is free to believe in all sorts of things but its legal system is hardly fair. From SCMP, owned by Alibaba with a shift in editorial staff. https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1441292/hong-kongs-rule-law-ranks-16th-world quote:Hong Kong's best ranking was in the category of providing order and security and its lowest was for guaranteeing fundamental rights. The mainland ranked 76th out of 99 countries studied by the World Justice Project. Not to discount the great progress China made - When it comes to the legal system, freedom of assembly, the press, etc, I rather pick Hong Kong instead of China. The minute I post something on social media (which is dumb but) contrary to main opinion I will be visited from ministry of State security in China. I know mainland friends who are apolitical in Hong Kong and posted pictures of 612 - Their parents received a visit from the authorities to stop posting things online. Now she's scared to go back home. This does not happen in Hong Kong. caberham has issued a correction as of 12:36 on Jul 24, 2019 |
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Jul 24, 2019 09:31
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Well, how likely do you think Beijing would actually give HK universal suffrage at this point? I mean it is pretty obvious from their perspective that they have plenty to lose from such an outcome.
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Jul 24, 2019 12:12
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R. Guyovich posted:why does every single one of these longposts have a list of bullet points clearly curated from the hot topics in the western corporate press. everybody's choice of issues to highlight comes from a list of a half dozen or so things that get hammered regularly in the pages of the nyt, wapo, wsj or on the airwaves of cnn, msnbc, john oliver, you name it. the choice of issues of greatest concern vary but it all comes down to "china bad" in the end. everybody — and i mean everybody, that includes the people who occasionally make pro-china posts here and anywhere — is just tailing the narrative that gets spun by major media outlets. Yeah, that's all totally true but it doesn't address the issue. Foreign media on China is poo poo and clearly pushing a narrative regardless of what China does. The gbs thread is mostly awful, full of racism and dumb politics. I've never said otherwise than any of that, here or gbs. But, that doesn't support the opposite of whatever their take is. Yeah those are the things people in SA, this English speaking mostly American forum talks about because what issues or perspectives are they going to otherwise be made aware of? What are you going off of besides that same stuff? Even if they did have something else to bring up how is it going to be a conversation, like you said personal experience isn't authoritative. I can start talking about the corruption in low level Kaifeng politics and the party's "audit" but no one else is going to have anything else to say about that. How could they? Look at the Hong Kong thing because that's going on right now. We've got foreign reporting, making a narrative, whether you agree with it or not. We've got mainland reporting, which I have tried to follow and it comes out to no more than "The people of Hong Kong do not support one country, two systems. There are many demonstrations." Which, you can agree with but doesn't make any sense at all to me. And then we've got Cab doing his thing, a guy who lives there. Maybe if the mainland responses to these things didn't fly in the face of so many people's experiences it would be taken more seriously. Or you can apply theory working with incomplete information and end up heartless. I never said personal experience was or should be authoritative. I said it was limited, I wouldn't expect anyone to take my experiences as fact. Would you expect people to not be influenced by their experiences? Maybe not so much when there is other information available, but when there is it's things like that video of dudes beating up people on a train. Whether it was intended to push a narrative or not it happened, it exists, it's real. I dunno, a lot of words to say everyone else is poo poo but that doesn't justify China, none of that makes any one issue real or not real, and all of this kind of feel like deflecting. I'm not trying to be a dick, I just don't know how you would expect people to know things or justify things when you've ruled out nearly all kinds of ways they can.
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Jul 24, 2019 12:41
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R. Guyovich posted:also it's cool that someone posted a well-thought out post articulating their position and was met with the most snide bullshit imaginable from a coterie of gbs rejects what the heck I didn’t even say anything yet
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Jul 24, 2019 12:48
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Ardennes posted:Well, how likely do you think Beijing would actually give HK universal suffrage at this point? I mean it is pretty obvious from their perspective that they have plenty to lose from such an outcome. Lower chance than abolishing electoral college and higher than abolishing the 2nd amendment.
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Jul 24, 2019 14:16
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Ardennes posted:Well, how likely do you think Beijing would actually give HK universal suffrage at this point? I mean it is pretty obvious from their perspective that they have plenty to lose from such an outcome. lol china hasnt even begun to flex. it's just letting the world know that their government is absolutely useless without their intervention pretty well tho
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Jul 24, 2019 14:52
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Ardennes posted:Well, how likely do you think Beijing would actually give HK universal suffrage at this point? I mean it is pretty obvious from their perspective that they have plenty to lose from such an outcome. Ask Beijing  The people of Hong Kong were promised universal suffrage since 2007  Democracy or not, right now everyone is angry at the HK government - Either not hardline enough with PRC values, or not democratic enough. No one wants to be Chief Executive, government trust, support, and authority is going down. We had people not wanting to go to hospitals for medical treatment and people don't trust the police like before. We can take the current situation and use it as an example. 1. Why not withdraw the bill after seeing angry crowd of demonstrators? The government withdrew from the controversial Article 23 bill and every one cooled off. 2. Why not resign and pass the buck to someone else? People did resign during other major fiasco. Is it because of Beijing's control and the liason office? This is the black box which we can all make baseless guesses. The current trend of administration is pushing people for actual separatism between HK and China. Self Autonomy was banned from discussion and disqualified political parties and candidates 5 years ago. Things are not going great now, and there's a political process to solve political problems. Universal suffrage wasn't even mentioned until after legco got broken into. This wound in HK is festering because of its United Front policy to dismantle democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRC_United_Front_strategy Political party situation in the legislative council Legco is normally split into a 60/40 distribution favouring pan democrats with 10%, the middle class as swing vote. The main attraction for pandems is advocating for universal suffrage - If the city actually gains universal suffrage there's not much else for Pan dems to stand on. If there is universal suffrage there are a few scenarios A. Pan dems win everything, but guess what, they loving suck and they get voted out B. Pro establishment win everything with their political machine (most likely this) , but guess what, they loving suck and they get voted out C. More of the same 50/50 dual party split, turns out they are in cahoots with each other and it's just DND coffee corner. D. First past the post parliamentary systems suck and nobody ends up voting - people do stupid poo poo like vote for separatism like brexit 
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Jul 24, 2019 15:18
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Lady Galaga posted:lol china hasnt even begun to flex. it's just letting the world know that their government is absolutely useless without their intervention pretty well tho tanks not here yet. Let's hit the streets 
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Jul 24, 2019 15:18
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tino posted:Lower chance than abolishing electoral college and higher than abolishing the 2nd amendment. AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA IS BAD
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Jul 24, 2019 15:19
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caberham posted:AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA Listen, I just wanted to explain it in a scenario English speakers coming from US can relate to and understand. If you ask me in Cantonese I wouldn't be able to explain it to a Hong Konger because Hong Kongers only have memory of last 30 years and are not aware of what's going on outside of Hong Kong. I would have to make a HK entertainment industry analogy.
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Jul 24, 2019 15:35
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Please make Edison Chen references and never stop.
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Jul 24, 2019 15:40
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