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Refusing to confront lovely behaviour and instead therefore giving it a tacit nod of acceptance within a social is a poor decision, and also does not work. Choosing to call out a person who behaves in a lovely way and attempting to impose social consequences on them for their lovely behaviour is the correct thing to do; the method of doing so does not necessarily have to be complete social exclusion. Straight up severing contact with lovely people is always a valid course of action; nobody has any responsibility to maintain social ties with those who make those around them uncomfortable, but if a person wishes to attempt to use any of several alternate methods of causing social consequence (e.g, remaining in contact with someone but publicly calling them out on their lovely behaviour whenever it comes up) then, well, that seems fine as well? Such methods are not always effective - obviously doing so is to some extent taking a risk with no guaranteed reward - but there's nothing inherently wrong with that, so long as you're aware of the risks involved. and it's easy to recommend  but doing so is sometimes easier said than done. Like, often it is the objectively best course of action but the reason it can be said to be "an internet thing" is because you can middle-finger out of a social relationship with your Online Friend with much less consequence than you can middle-finger out of a social connection with your sibling's partner or your co-worker; deciding "hey maybe I'll just try to make that rear end in a top hat change his ways - even though it's almost definitely not going to work - rather than cutting him out of my life" makes a lot more sense when cutting him out of your life is going to gently caress up your life in a bunch of other ways; that's a lovely situation to be in, but it's also a very common one.
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Jul 23, 2019 03:49
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Kai Tave posted:You know what encourages people to change? Harsh social consequences for lovely behavior. You know why so many lovely people are emboldened these days? Here's a hint, it's not because they haven't yet been sufficiently educated that being a bigot is actually uncool. That feeling in the amygdala that leads to posting, "Here's a hint", is a trap. Our brains urge us to do the opposite of what convinces people: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-convince-someone-when-facts-fail/ Education is important but it has precious little to do with convincing. Convincing isn't about being right, its about engendering a feeling that it is okay to change. When the local "that guy" goes off the rails, if it's possible to call him on it without making him feel attacked, then there's a legitimate chance of stopping the behaviour. If that doesn't work, then absolutely it's time to sever. The energy is best spent elsewhere.
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Jul 23, 2019 04:32
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Maneck posted:That feeling in the amygdala that leads to posting, "Here's a hint", is a trap. Our brains urge us to do the opposite of what convinces people: I'm beginning to see where you got that red text from.
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Jul 23, 2019 06:49
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Nazi Punks Please Quietly Reconsider The Path That Brought You To This State Of Affairs
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Jul 23, 2019 15:07
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Please punch Nazis with gentle requests to reconsider their ethical positions, but not so hard that they feel threatened or inconvenienced.
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Jul 23, 2019 16:41
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Is love all you need? We just don't know.
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Jul 23, 2019 17:04
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grassy gnoll posted:Nazi Punks Please Quietly Reconsider The Path That Brought You To This State Of Affairs
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Jul 23, 2019 17:15
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It's not necessarily wrong to try and reform chuds, but no one is specifically obliged to. There needs to be a carrot that goes along with the stick of being deplatformed and isolated. Merely allowing them back in when they've shown some reform isn't enough. Praise and acknowledgement should be given. Think of it like training an animal. That said, the onus isn't on anyone to try and teach them to be better, but those that do shouldn't also be derided for trying.
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Jul 23, 2019 17:55
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The carrot is that they get to be friends with fun cool people instead of r/the_donald or whatever platform pewdiepie fans use. a computing pun posted:Like, often it is the objectively best course of action but the reason it can be said to be "an internet thing" is because you can middle-finger out of a social relationship with your Online Friend with much less consequence than you can middle-finger out of a social connection with your sibling's partner or your co-worker; In a professional environment, you should be able to tell someone to cool it when they start regurgitating talking points. Under less than professional circumstances, "I don't care about what you're saying and we're not friends" may bruise someone's feelings but it's healthier than pretending to tolerate the intolerable. Servering doesn't need to be a middle finger and a slamming door - it's often better and more effectively when it isn't confrontational. There's no invitation to continue a conversation or get in a last word. If someone is toxic and creating a workplace problem, you're probably not the only person who feels that way. Most employers have resources for dealing with this, and they may only be marginally effective, but like - use your available tools before you concede that listening to fash propaganda is an immutable part of your lunch break.
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Jul 23, 2019 18:58
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Guys, I know persuading fascists gently has an atrocious track record full of failure and millions of corpses, but what if.... what if we tried it again verbatim? No pressure, you don't have to, just don't be mean to them hoo boy that'd exacerbate things 
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Jul 23, 2019 19:51
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moths posted:The carrot is that they get to be friends with fun cool people instead of r/the_donald or whatever platform pewdiepie fans use. Chances are quite a few of them do both; a lot of Trumpists and alt-righters hide their political views from the 'normies,' especially when they start to get hit with negative social consequences.
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Jul 23, 2019 20:19
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If nobody can tell they're the fash because they're too scared to say or do anything to reveal themselves, that's the next best thing to getting them to gently caress off completely.
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Jul 24, 2019 00:52
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:If nobody can tell they're the fash because they're too scared to say or do anything to reveal themselves, that's the next best thing to getting them to gently caress off completely. Pretty much. People with abhorrent views of the "I think people deserve to be locked in concentration camps, and also we must secure the existence of our people etc" kind deserve to live with the sort of deep, crippling anxiety that the moment they let this slip in public, like at the game table for example, people will look at them as though they decided to loudly poo poo themselves in front of everybody. I have absolutely zero interest in trying to "reach out" to that sort of person tbh, similarly to how I have no interest in trying to correct young earth creationists or anti-vaxxers. You can't actually logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into in the first place. Telling assholes to gently caress off out of your game group (or anywhere really) is not for their benefit, it's for the benefit of everyone else.
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Jul 24, 2019 03:58
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Kai Tave posted:Pretty much. People with abhorrent views of the "I think people deserve to be locked in concentration camps, and also we must secure the existence of our people etc" kind deserve to live with the sort of deep, crippling anxiety that the moment they let this slip in public, like at the game table for example, people will look at them as though they decided to loudly poo poo themselves in front of everybody. I have absolutely zero interest in trying to "reach out" to that sort of person tbh, similarly to how I have no interest in trying to correct young earth creationists or anti-vaxxers. You can't actually logic someone out of a position they didn't logic themselves into in the first place. Telling assholes to gently caress off out of your game group (or anywhere really) is not for their benefit, it's for the benefit of everyone else. 100% agreed accept that anti-vaxxers have a bad habit of having kids and also need to be stopped for the safety of the kids. I can't believe I have to say this : don't be a Nazi but also vaccinate your children against preventable diseases unless a doctor tells you that you shouldn't. Maybe we can live in a world without Nazis or pertussis. Just a wild out there idea.
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Jul 24, 2019 04:06
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Xiahou Dun posted:100% agreed accept that anti-vaxxers have a bad habit of having kids and also need to be stopped for the safety of the kids. Oh sure, I agree that the lovely things anti-vaxxers do to their kids is pretty terrible, especially the whole "making my kids drink bleach to cure their autism" type thing, but it's more that you can't rationally debate an anti-vaxxer into going "oh wow you're right, I've totally been abusing my kid and vaccines are helpful." I don't know how precisely you (the general, societal you) address that issue in an effective way, but I know it doesn't involve trying to meet some sort of rhetorical middle ground with the people feeding their kids bleach.
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Jul 24, 2019 04:11
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Kai Tave posted:Oh sure, I agree that the lovely things anti-vaxxers do to their kids is pretty terrible, especially the whole "making my kids drink bleach to cure their autism" type thing, but it's more that you can't rationally debate an anti-vaxxer into going "oh wow you're right, I've totally been abusing my kid and vaccines are helpful." I don't know how precisely you (the general, societal you) address that issue in an effective way, but I know it doesn't involve trying to meet some sort of rhetorical middle ground with the people feeding their kids bleach.
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Jul 24, 2019 04:29
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Kai Tave posted:Oh sure, I agree that the lovely things anti-vaxxers do to their kids is pretty terrible, especially the whole "making my kids drink bleach to cure their autism" type thing, but it's more that you can't rationally debate an anti-vaxxer into going "oh wow you're right, I've totally been abusing my kid and vaccines are helpful." I don't know how precisely you (the general, societal you) address that issue in an effective way, but I know it doesn't involve trying to meet some sort of rhetorical middle ground with the people feeding their kids bleach. O word and I hope you didn't think I was disagreeing. Just wanted to emphasize that anti-vaxxers are arguably even worse than Nazis because they give their own children easily preventable diseases while spreading that to other people. A Nazi I can at least just (try to) punch in the face ; I can't stop my nephew from getting loving polio. (Not that these are in opposition at all.)
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Jul 24, 2019 04:37
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I was going to say, we have not yet reached the point where 3% of the world population died because middle-class white people believed in crystal woo woo. But German fascism was also New Age woo woo.
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Jul 24, 2019 04:50
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It only takes a few people to ruin herd immunity! Not to downplay them, but Nazis are somehow easier to fight than disease. You can fight and argue with Nazis. Diseases just either kill you or give lasting damage like blindness from rubella. Vaccinate! And also fight Nazis.
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Jul 24, 2019 04:59
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Disease is not vulnerable to the Stone Cold Stunner. Nazis? Nazis never see it coming.
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Jul 24, 2019 05:08
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Liquid Communism posted:Disease is not vulnerable to the Stone Cold Stunner.
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Jul 24, 2019 05:14
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That trash trick guy was posting defending racial IQ differences (and the value of IQ as a whole) in some gassed thread lmao.
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Jul 24, 2019 05:29
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Nessus posted:We have for the most part ruled out the historically effective tactics and I'll be real that it seems like "critical thinking education" etc. is not really doing the job. Indeed sometimes I think the decades of banging on a drum of "question, permanently, literally any source of authority" has aggravated the issue. Collective action is necessary to address collective problems, but we are all conditioned to see Dick Nixon lurking in the shadows. One of the more effective tactics for deprogramming hateful extremists has been to not engage them on the logical basis of their arguments, but to figure out what's causing them stress in everyday life and helping them through that. Once they're not up to their eyeballs in stress and mental pain, they apparently become a lot easier to reach.
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Jul 24, 2019 11:17
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LatwPIAT posted:One of the more effective tactics for deprogramming hateful extremists has been to not engage them on the logical basis of their arguments, but to figure out what's causing them stress in everyday life and helping them through that. Once they're not up to their eyeballs in stress and mental pain, they apparently become a lot easier to reach. Nerd site SpaceBattles, home to a ton of fanfic and role playing-adjacent quests, is kind of on fire today. Turns out a couple of years ago some of the right-wing mods volunteered to create a private group PM (essentially a hidden community even admins couldn't access unless posts were reported) to "help the site" by "teaching conservative problem posters how not to shitpost" so they wouldn't get banned for flaming up the political discussions. This went about as expected. Someone leaked some posts from it. Now a bunch of people are tempbanned while the admins get ready to go through the whole lot. On the one hand, the leaker did fake one of the screenshots and edit the rest to make things look worse, hiding that a lot of the posts were from the same (banned) poster, that sort of thing. On the other hand, someone who was there for a while posted at length about how it was a shithole. On the saluting hand, one of the mods came in to defend themselves by talking about how they tried to reach someone to tone down the racism by saying "dindus" instead of their preferred slur. So that's fun.
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Jul 24, 2019 11:24
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Someone leaked some posts from it. Now a bunch of people are tempbanned while the admins get ready to go through the whole lot. On the one hand, the leaker did fake one of the screenshots and edit the rest to make things look worse, hiding that a lot of the posts were from the same (banned) poster, that sort of thing. On the other hand, someone who was there for a while posted at length about how it was a shithole. On the saluting hand, one of the mods came in to defend themselves by talking about how they tried to reach someone to tone down the racism by saying "dindus" instead of their preferred slur. Which screenshot did they fake? And which mod? And yeah... That PM. o_o
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Jul 24, 2019 11:31
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LatwPIAT posted:Which screenshot did they fake? And which mod? And on checking, it was Xeno Major I was thinking of, who I don't think is a mod. Oops. And it wasn't them. I'm very inaccurate. But they were charging into the thread to declare that it was all overblown nonsense and really can anyone be sure if that term is racist or not, after all it does refer to criminals so https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/59431549/ Edit: this all happened a while ago, but exploded today when the staff implemented a banner notification that poo poo was hosed and there was a thread to discuss it. 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Jul 24, 2019 |
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Jul 24, 2019 11:38
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I'm so glad I jumped ship from Spacebattles to SV at the Athena incident and never looked back. gently caress that place.
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Jul 24, 2019 12:39
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90s Cringe Rock posted:I don't want to go through the 100-page hellthread again, but it was the one about wanting to rape another user and hear them pray. Apparently the quote doesn't appear anywhere in the database, which includes deleted posts and edits? Christ! You start spraying right wing bigotry and everyone crawls over themselves to suck your genitals.
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Jul 24, 2019 13:00
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Nah, that was their excuse to the other mods. "We're reforming them!" In practice it was slurs, calling for backup when someone criticised them, gentle chitchat about the importance of mass-murdering immigrants, and the odd bit of doxxing. Apparently the leftier mods were asked if they wanted to do something similar in concept to the right-wing proposal, to deal with leftist problem-posters, and said "gently caress no that's a terrible idea you idiots." Edit: it's not really a TG issue, just kind of adjacent. If you squint. There's overlap, but this isn't the right place - I didn't feel like posting in the internet culture warriors thread or wherever. 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Jul 24, 2019 |
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Jul 24, 2019 13:06
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Nah, that was their excuse to the other mods. "We're reforming them!" In practice it was slurs, calling for backup when someone criticised them, gentle chitchat about the importance of mass-murdering immigrants, and the odd bit of doxxing. I dunno, there's definitely some overlap. I run a cyoa/quest type site and I've had to advertise as both "a webcomic" and "a roleplay site" on different occasions. CYOAs or quests or whatever you want to call them don't really fit into a single genre very well, there's definitely roleplay elements involved. also jesus christ, I know it's cliche to want a safe space but seriously is nowhere safe I would love to not have every single one of my hobbies (regardless of how broad or how niche) poisoned by alt-righters at every corner and angle, that would be a nice breath of fresh air
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Jul 24, 2019 13:50
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Spoiler: probably capitalism, but unfortunately that won't help. haha, I just set foot in there for the first time a couple of months ago, because they had a pretty big thread about If The Emperor Had A TTS (which is my only 40k interest anymore, not that I was ever too into in the first place), that the creators actually even post in occasionally. And that thread was great! Then I found out they had a decent Cyberpunk 2077 thread, which I only really got interested in in the last few months...so I checked that out, too. The day after the 'trans controversy' had started, apparently. Jesus christ, did my ignore list fill up fast. It really reminded me just how amazingly chud-free SA is by comparison to probably pretty much every other forum (not counting rpg.net which has its own stupid problems, but being full of chuds isn't really one of them).
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Jul 24, 2019 19:14
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"dindu" is literally the same as any other slur at this point right? Your only saving grace with it is that blessedly people around you might not know what you're talking about, but it's equally mean-spirited and spoken with the same venom. Apropos of nothing I remember when Neogaf had an identical controversy but with liberal mods and posters and I netted my permaban for saying it was a bad look. lol considering where that forum eventually went I'm glad I got out when I did.
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Jul 24, 2019 19:27
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Sufficient Velocity, the sister site created after some server problems and populated after a massive mod "retirement" clusterfuck, is better. It's like ten times better if you like your moderation done with full legal system role play. Questionable Questing, the horny site that completes the trio, has rules against judging people for writing loli guro porn, and also rules against bringing up anything at all political, sooooooooo you can kind of guess what that's like. I wish the transition from SB to SV had been a fraction as swift or total as when NeoGAF burned and ResetEra sprung up, that felt like practically everyone, overnight.
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Jul 24, 2019 19:35
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Lunatic Sledge posted:also jesus christ, I know it's cliche to want a safe space but seriously is nowhere safe I don't like to go off-topic by self-promoting too much but it seems appropriate in this case - I started a leftist Warhammer group called Tide of Traitors on Facebook a couple months ago. We're small but we've got a lot of goons and discord peeps - there's zero tolerance for chud poo poo and I take new member approvals pretty seriously, so it's a pretty chill hang. It's not just Warhammer either, we're cool with any wargaming or lefty topic you're interested in. If you still use FB for hobby groups at all we'd be glad to have you. https://www.facebook.com/groups/tideoftraitors/
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Jul 24, 2019 19:58
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90s Cringe Rock posted:Sufficient Velocity, the sister site created after some server problems and populated after a massive mod "retirement" clusterfuck, is better. It's like ten times better if you like your moderation done with full legal system role play. SV was created after Athene was fired.
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Jul 24, 2019 20:39
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LatwPIAT posted:SV was created after Athene was fired. I'm hoping the SB mods can unfuck some stuff and maybe slowly turn the site around, but it'll be ages before they even get the "investigation" done.
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Jul 24, 2019 20:56
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In lieu of an ArchWarhammer effortpost... https://kotaku.com/total-war-community-manager-calls-youtuber-a-dickhead-1836741789 quote:In his final public act as community manager for Creative Assembly, makers of the Total War strategy game series, Michael “Wheels” Whelan said this at the end of a livestream earlier this week: “Arch Warhammer is a dickhead. Goodbye.”
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Jul 27, 2019 09:22
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I'd like to add Arch invented a controversy some months ago about female generals in Total War Rome 2, where according to him Creative Assembly were "erasing men's footprint in history" or some other inane nonsense because you could now only recruit female generals as non-traditionally female-led societies. Then someone pointed out you can only do that if you go to great lengths to kill every single available male in your faction, including those belonging to other political parties inside the faction, while also marrying everyone so as to produce a big enough number of women for the game to go "okay, I'm going to put them as general candidates because otherwise you won't have armies". The whole made-up fact exploded into a controversy when One Angry Gamer and The Daily Stormer picked it up and published an article on it. The update that made female generals available to non-African factions was almost a year-old at this point, by the way. CA ended up making this statement.* A representative from CA said the following shortly after: “Total War games are historically authentic, not historically accurate - if having female units upsets you that much you can either mod them out or just not play.” Which prompted Arch to complain/call for a boycott/etc. Best part of all this is that there's a bunch of people going "man, Arch is only being hard on you because he loves the games. You should give him a break!" while ignoring the couple videos where he calls some breed of Warhammer goblins "house n*****s". Last time I checked he was doing a collaboration with SargonOfAkkad of all people. He's basically a neo-nazi at this point. * The very first comment on their tweet explaining the percentages per cultural group has someone go "it should be 2% instead of 15% and 5% instead of 50% for Kush!" Ugh. Edit: Forgot the couple videos where he actively encourages white people to use racist slurs so as to avoid being censured. Azran fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jul 27, 2019 |
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Jul 27, 2019 10:21
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loving hell.
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Jul 27, 2019 11:04
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Arch has always been an alt right piece of poo poo. There's a fair amount of nazis (surprising no one) in the Total Warhammer fanbase. There's a bunch of youtubers who made videos complaining that when a DLC added Aranessa Saltspite (a pirate captain and chaos mutant who cut off her unusable fin-legs she was born with and replaced them with swordfish nose peg legs) that she had 'man face' and was too masculine. That and the fact that one of the other characters the DLC added was a ghost of an opera singer lady, who was fat of all things, brought the ratio of new characters added up to 50-50 male/female really drove people insane. Total Warhammer has really, really few female lords overall, and any time they add one these youtube creeps bitch that they're not fuckable enough. It's a really trash community and the community manager Grace gets a lot of poo poo and people being gross towards her. There's also a prominent overhaul mod called Steel Faith, and the guy who made it just has literal nazi propaganda videos as all his favourites on youtube. Like not even Sargon type nazi videos, but straight up WW2 hitler nazi propaganda vids.
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Jul 27, 2019 14:07
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