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fnox posted:What else do you call when things seem to reach the point where something is going to happen but they fall apart at the top level? A failed negotiation between two parties who have fundamentally opposed objectives? Honestly, it's bizarre that you're pinning the blame for that on the moderators, much less the international left. quote:That's rich. So you believe countries should just go to poo poo and you shouldn't comment on it at all, not a peep. Not even a letter of condemnation. Not what I said at all, actually. What I did say is that it shouldn't be up to nation-states to intervene and install "democratic" governments in other nation-states. quote:Because Venezuela became president of the organization, therefore turning the thing into more of a joke than it was. It seems more likely to me that it's because countries like Brazil got taken over by literal fascists who want to roll back the Pink Tide. But either way, neither OAS nor UNASUR are "the international left."
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Jul 17, 2019 23:27
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Okay there was a lot of flaming going on but from what I could parse; A: the USA shouldn't be involved militarily, Venezuelans should do X B: Venezuelans have been trying to do X but are unable to due to uncooperative international community blocking less extreme solutions A: such as? B: Such as they won't let the USA invade. Am I getting that right?? I never saw where the original question of "how has the international community materially blocked any reforms in Venezuela such that now US military intervention is the only feasible solution?" was answered. Wasn't it Maduro who blocked UN aid?
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Jul 17, 2019 23:38
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A plane variant known to be/have been operated by the CIA has reportedly had an encounter with the Venezuelan air force. The article says it is a US Navy plane, but they refer to it as a sub-variant that is exported for use by Japan. https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article232945432.html
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Jul 21, 2019 22:23
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Corky Romanovsky posted:A plane variant known to be/have been operated by the CIA has reportedly had an encounter with the Venezuelan air force. The article says it is a US Navy plane, but they refer to it as a sub-variant that is exported for use by Japan. I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. The US Navy does, in fact, operate a number of EP-3 aircraft that do electronic intelligence (i.e. listening to signals, primarily). You may recall one of them got forced down after a collision with a Chinese fighter back in 2001. Since electronic intelligence collection tends to involve flying close to the boundaries of other nations' airspace, they tend to be one of the types of aircraft most often involved in close calls with fighters coming to tell them to piss off. The CIA used a few P-3s back in Vietnam, but the Navy does plenty of its own surveillance stuff and I don't think that the Miami Herald not reporting an exact model number is enough to determine whether it's a Navy plane or something else.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:12
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Jumping at your own shadow, bud. That is why my post did not say "this is definitely a CIA/Navy plane", just highlighting some not-immediately-obvious background information which is absolutely relevant in the context given the history of US intervention.
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Jul 21, 2019 23:55
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If it was a CIA/Navy plane, Venezuela really should rethink its strategy of initiating engagements with foreign aircraft over international waters. That sort of reckless adventurism and interference in other countries' affairs isn't acceptable. The PSUV needs to think about situations like the Iraq war and the foreign support of the right wing in El Salvador where this kind of imperialist behavior that they are now engaging in led to bad outcomes.
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Jul 22, 2019 03:04
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M. Discordia posted:If it was a CIA/Navy plane, Venezuela really should rethink its strategy of initiating engagements with foreign aircraft over international waters. That sort of reckless adventurism and interference in other countries' affairs isn't acceptable. The PSUV needs to think about situations like the Iraq war and the foreign support of the right wing in El Salvador where this kind of imperialist behavior that they are now engaging in led to bad outcomes. According to the Venezuela, it was in their airspace (possibly EEZ).
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Jul 22, 2019 14:05
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M. Discordia posted:That sort of reckless adventurism and interference in other countries' affairs isn't acceptable. Yeah the US has a lot of moral standing here.
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Jul 22, 2019 15:55
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So are the body counts from Venezuelan policy due to being political dissenters or police being criminal assholes? Like are the killings due to "we must kill the defectors of socialism" or just police being "trigger happy"? Also, how do these stats compare to say a decade ago? punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 23, 2019 |
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Jul 23, 2019 18:54
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Probably a lot of column B justified by column A if I had to guess.
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Jul 23, 2019 22:56
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punk rebel ecks posted:So are the body counts from Venezuelan policy due to being political dissenters or police being criminal assholes? Deaths during arrest are not supposed to happen - the idea is to arrest someone, not kill them. The Venezuelan government is trying to claim that it's responsible for a ridiculous number of accidental or otherwise unintended deaths (one hundred times the equivalent rate in America), and I doubt they'd be doing that if they could find any better justification for why those people had to die.
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Jul 23, 2019 23:18
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There was a blackout that affected 16 states. Electromagnetic attack, the goverment claims. http://www.el-nacional.com/noticias/sociedad/jorge-rodriguez-falla-electrica-producto-ataque-electromagnetico_289561 Use google translate or whatever.
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Jul 24, 2019 14:37
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US Republicans don't want to allow Venezuelan refugees https://twitter.com/RepEliotEngel/status/1153833906774429696
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Jul 24, 2019 15:12
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Blue Nation posted:There was a blackout that affected 16 states. Electromagnetic attack, the goverment claims. What Maduro failed to mention is this electromagnetic attack isn't a CIA EMP device but just the servos and switches of 60s era electrical transformer tech failing due to lack of maintenance.
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Jul 25, 2019 20:52
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536 posted:What Maduro failed to mention is this electromagnetic attack isn't a CIA EMP device but just the servos and switches of 60s era electrical transformer tech failing due to lack of maintenance. Actually I think you'll find that the same CIA agent who caused the Chernobyl disaster also did this.
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Jul 25, 2019 22:17
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Blue Nation posted:There was a blackout that affected 16 states. Electromagnetic attack, the goverment claims. I don’t think the technology even exists to do this, does it?
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Jul 25, 2019 22:19
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t think the technology even exists to do this, does it? Maybe if you detonated a nuke in the stratosphere over Venezuela.
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Jul 25, 2019 23:02
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Lightning Knight posted:I don’t think the technology even exists to do this, does it? Cyber attacks can 100% do this in other countries. But I have a feeling with ancient tech they use in VZ would mean there is no internet access at all in the controller buildings anyways.
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Jul 25, 2019 23:06
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536 posted:Cyber attacks can 100% do this in other countries. But I have a feeling with ancient tech they use in VZ would mean there is no internet access at all in the controller buildings anyways. also it would be less "electromagnetic pulse" and more, like, "turn up all the turbines to 200% and disable all warnings", or more sophisticated fuckery that I don't know because roads aren't generally electrical grids
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Jul 25, 2019 23:08
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In general, nothing can do what Maduro is claiming happened even just for virtue of the fact that the claims are inherently inconsistent with each other. It's very Tinpot in essence: whatever verbiage or descriptions that Maduro used on air to accuse outside forces then had to become the official description of what happened, even if it was some garbled junk about cyber electro terror magnet attacks. And so, multiple releases then just adapted that spontaneous description to declarations of what happened. I recall it resulted in some silly infographics this time around.
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Jul 25, 2019 23:15
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Also, again, this has been happening since 2007. My life in this country was constantly mired by blackouts, and anybody who lived there will tell you of the extents they had to take to accommodate for constant power surges. Anybody who wants to look at this critically would start by looking for ways in which the government tried to fix this problem, and then you’ll probably find out how stuff like the Tacoma Dam or the multiple attempts to build wind turbine parks all failed completely due to corruption, resulting in billions of dollars being taken from the country’s coffers. The only difference between this one and the thousands of blackouts that have happened over the years is that the Foro de Sao Paulo is meeting in Caracas this weekend, and the CIA sabotage angle probably plays very well with the delegates sent there. The Foro de São Paulo is a conference of the Latin American left, and serves as one of the more important avenues for chavismo and Maduro to proselytize and advance his cause that he’s an anti imperialist fighter and not a murderous dictator. The governing parties of 7 nations are all attending, as well as the Brazilian and I believe the Argentinian opposition.
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Jul 26, 2019 10:23
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https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/07/27/dealing-with-leftists-abroad-how-not-to-see-reality/
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Jul 28, 2019 14:42
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Extremely nice of Daniel to cook for some strawmen.
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Jul 28, 2019 16:57
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Oh Snapple! posted:Extremely nice of Daniel to cook for some strawmen. We've heard the exact same arguments being used in this thread. That Bachelet is a right winger and corrupt. That every expat is middle class or bougie, a claim that always comes from people living more comfortable than any Venezuelan émigré. How much of a strawmen are they? I've seen people in this thread run back to cry to C-SPAM, calling me a plantation owner, or something similar to that "agent of the empire" claim.
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Jul 28, 2019 18:33
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Yeah man you got me, I'm clearly not giving an intellectual fair shake to the shithead who wrote this tripe among other horseshitquote:The disdain Chávez, Maduro and their followers in the Bolivarian Revolution hold toward “[liberal] representative democracy” is so well-known, it’s not worth mentioning, but the same sort of contempt for an open, liberal and democratic society is evident among the Antifa (“anti-fascist”) movement and their defenders. Thus, on June 29th the Antifa demonstrators in Portland, Oregon came out to protest at a gathering of “Proud Boys,” a far-right nationalist/chauvinist, mostly white organization. While the Proud Boys have a reputation for violence, the Antifa and other ultra-left supporters appeared to have been the ones who initiated what became a riot in Portland’s downtown that ironically ended in the brutal beating of Andy Ngo, a gay man of Vietnamese descent who works as a photojournalist and is also an editor at the liberal website Quillette.
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Jul 28, 2019 19:28
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Oh Snapple! posted:Yeah man you got me, I'm clearly not giving an intellectual fair shake to the shithead who wrote this tripe among other horseshit You’re not giving anybody a fair shake by accusing someone of using a logical fallacy and then proceeding to use a logical fallacy in your counter reply. It’s not a straw man, we’ve observed the exact same attitudes in this thread. We’ve seen similar kinds of contorting coming from people in the thread when the Bachelet report was published. fnox fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Jul 28, 2019 |
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Jul 28, 2019 19:53
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Jul 29, 2019 00:17
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Source. https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2019/07/23/as-venezuelans-starve-maduro-spends-200-million-to-host-sao-paulo-forum/ Having trouble finding clear reads on this site, but it's editorially framed as aligned with the Republicans domestically. Appears aimed at conservative expats in Florida. That said, yeah, when I was digging through telesur proxies it became clear that Maduro/Venezuela's government spend a lot of resources using nominally socialist groups to extend propaganda connections. This fits that general pattern of practice. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jul 29, 2019 |
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Jul 29, 2019 00:50
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I can't believe that both Maduro is bad and also some anti-Maduro people are also bad.
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Jul 29, 2019 01:00
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fnox posted:We've heard the exact same arguments being used in this thread. That Bachelet is a right winger and corrupt. That every expat is middle class or bougie, a claim that always comes from people living more comfortable than any Venezuelan émigré. How much of a strawmen are they? I've seen people in this thread run back to cry to C-SPAM, calling me a plantation owner, or something similar to that "agent of the empire" claim. The problem with the lovely argument that "only the rich have fled the country" is the fact we know 10 million have left and VZ never had anywhere close to that many rich people 10 years ago, let alone over the past 3 years.
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Jul 29, 2019 02:37
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536 posted:The problem with the lovely argument that "only the rich have fled the country" is the fact we know 10 million have left and VZ never had anywhere close to that many rich people 10 years ago, let alone over the past 3 years. It’s more like 4-5 million but your point still stands.
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Jul 29, 2019 04:03
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Oh Snapple! posted:Extremely nice of Daniel to cook for some strawmen. It seems to be this thread's collective position that the people in this thread don't actually exist.
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Jul 29, 2019 05:57
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Lol the youtube guy isn't allowed to film anymore in venezuela. I wonder why when obviously everything is fine ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTt-HzqzVYk
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Jul 30, 2019 17:53
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So what do posters of this thread think of the Venezuelan guy in that video? Is that guy bougie?
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Jul 30, 2019 18:34
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Speaking of bougie https://twitter.com/cohenluc/status/1156385120644947968?s=19 Max Blumenthal and Ben Norton in the house.
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Jul 31, 2019 06:20
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536 posted:Lol the youtube guy isn't allowed to film anymore in venezuela. I wonder why when obviously everything is fine ? he was forbidden from filming in one national park, the title is misleading clickbait. this is obviously a dumb policy (maybe they were fishing for bribes?), but it hardly qualifies as press censorship.
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Jul 31, 2019 07:17
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GoluboiOgon posted:he was forbidden from filming in one national park, the title is misleading clickbait. this is obviously a dumb policy (maybe they were fishing for bribes?), but it hardly qualifies as press censorship. No, that actually does qualify as press censorship, because suppressing speech is what censorship means. It doesn't need to be in service of a particular political cause.
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Jul 31, 2019 07:25
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GoluboiOgon posted:he was forbidden from filming in one national park, the title is misleading clickbait. this is obviously a dumb policy (maybe they were fishing for bribes?), but it hardly qualifies as press censorship. The national park is a massive mountain range surrounding Caracas which is not only stunningly beautiful but also a regular hiking destination and a road to another town, Galipan, which lies inside the mountain range. Never, not once in my entire time living there did I hear of such a policy, and there doesn’t seem to be any justification for it. Now, of course, compared to the other attacks against the press that the Maduro government has committed, this barely registers. What the man in the video speaks about, that if they could take everyone’s cameras away they could, there was a Turkish tourist not too long ago who got shaken down and nearly had his camera stolen by GNB randomly patrolling downtown Caracas.
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Jul 31, 2019 07:41
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Volkerball posted:Speaking of bougie Remember when people in this thread said Blumenthal is a good independent journalist and not a paid shill of the government ? Ahahah He is literally sucking wide eyed on maduros golden sword.
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Jul 31, 2019 07:48
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fnox posted:The national park is a massive mountain range surrounding Caracas which is not only stunningly beautiful but also a regular hiking destination and a road to another town, Galipan, which lies inside the mountain range. Never, not once in my entire time living there did I hear of such a policy, and there doesn’t seem to be any justification for it. this kind of arrangement was rather common in russia in the 90s and early 2000s. museums would demand money not just for tickets, but for a license to take photographs. these licenses would naturally cost much more for foreigners. this arrangement came about as a way for people to make a little bit extra during that period of hyper-inflation, i wouldn't be surprised if something similar was going on at that national park. i had a classmate (white us citizen) in high-school in america who not only was forbidden from taking pictures off a bridge that led to a chemical plant, but he was stopped by the local police who confiscated his film. cops being assholes about taking pictures for no discernible reason is not a uniquely venezuelan phenomenon.
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Jul 31, 2019 07:55
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