|
Thanks for the input. My wallet appreciates it.
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 21:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:45 |
|
|
The key is that birds still score full roost points after turmoils and only lose 2 + bird cards for it, so they can be aggressive early and get a few roosts out then just pump move after a turmoil and coast to victory pretty well. Cats are pretty reliant on draws for overwork actions to keep up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 21:12
|
|
|
al-azad posted:If I see your starting decrees include an attack card I'm going to move all my pieces away. I keep imagining a Marquis/Eyrie matchup and all I can see is the Marquise taking 1-4 March actions a turn and basically playing keep away from whatever clearings the Eyrie have to battle in, and send them into perpetual turmoil. Would the Eyrie have any way to prevent this? Bottom Liner posted:The key is that birds still score full roost points after turmoils and only lose 2 + bird cards for it, so they can be aggressive early and get a few roosts out then just pump move after a turmoil and coast to victory pretty well. Yeah but if the Eyrie is losing 2 VP at a minimum for every turmoil, regardless of the state of their roosts aren’t you slowly bleeding them out? Jewmanji fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 21:13
|
|
|
Just don’t put cards into battle
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 21:14
|
|
|
If the birds can survive a turmoil then the game is already over in their favor. Their momentum is entirely late game. It's the early game turmoils that basically put them out of the running permanently. I'm just speculating here but I can see most games being decided by who goes first and the birds totally want to go first because the cats can easily react to their opening decree. I would experiment with turn order bidding or maybe letting the birds choose their decree after the cats take their turn if going first but 2 player Root sounds as interesting to me as 2 player COIN (that's not Colonial Twilight).
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 21:42
|
|
|
Morpheus posted:Problem with Avalon is the reason I stopped playing it, and most deduction games: there's no game to it. You can sit around arguing all you want about who is what, but except for something like the lady of the lake, there's no concrete information in the game except for Merlin. And who knows if he's Merlin or just someone talking out his rear end. And who knows what the person with the lady is saying, it could be all bullshit anyway It becomes a game of metas, where someone is 'always the traitor' with nothing to back up that they aren't, or someone can just stay silent the entire game, get ignored, and turn out to be a werewolf or something the whole time. Or someone's being 'too quiet' and so therefore they're the werewolf. They're party games. Which is fine, if you want a party game. But I'd rather play Fake Artist or Insider, at least those games either have funny stuff happening or an element of deduction (except in Fake Artist when you get dumb words like 'cutter', like what the heck). Avalon has enough tuning options that you should be able to get the right amount of deductive information for your group. The role of Merlin should provide a level of balance by himself. If Blue isn't winning fairly consistently on the board (Blue should win 2/3-3/4 of the time on the board - and 1/2 overall after the stab), Merlin is playing too passively. Lady of the Lake and Excalibur are great at any level (though eventually you'll need Lancelot to balance them, as you end up with too many deductive endings otherwise). When you're starting, Percival can be a good way to kickstart a "good metagame" if Blue is having trouble - though he should be retired after that as he's much too strong in general. You're also not listing what's perhaps the most key source of deductive information in Avalon (and one missing from Secret Hitler) - if a mission failed, you know one of the people on that team is a traitor. By combining that information with pronouncements from the Lady, that alone (well, with Merlin) is enough that the game should basically work, and you should see a lot of variety based on how early missions go. That's not to say you won't sometimes get bad games - eg. "Blue pleasure cruise"s - but most of our 3 or 4 hundred games ended up being good (and often great). To be clear, I agree with you completely on Secret Hitler (which doesn't have enough hard information for the game to work) or base Resistance (which relies on loose/predictable play from red, or lucky cards, for Blue to have much chance). But, yeah, nothing will work if your group is playing in silly mode - which is how lots of people play any of these games. At that point, Avalon and Secret Hitler are the same dumb game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 23:18
|
|
|
Morpheus posted:Resistance/Avalon is the best of them, but it still suffers hugely from the problem where, if Merlin selects three people for a mission and it succeeds, the next person will either select them again or be labelled a member of the evil side. Even though there are reasons not to. Like maybe they're percy and they know that mission leader was probably merlin. Doesn't matter, there's no actual information to go one, except that the mission passed. So you get into a routine of steps to follow. Yeah this is my biggest problem with Resistance - you get the occasional game where the spies just can't do anything because the first couple of missions don't have spies on them and the resistance aren't risking anything to keep trying the dream team. This is especially bad if you have new players as spies and if the spies happen to be last in turn order. I was incredibly embarassed trying to teach the game when this happened a couple times a row.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 23:40
|
|
|
Morpheus posted:
One trick to breaking the meta is to, in this case, select the same team again as a member of the resistance. You need to punish routine play or else the game suffers. Its odd because this was the first understanding of the game my group had. Aren't we here to have fun and not min/max the game? I guess for other player/groups min/maxxing is the fun but meh. Each to their own! Also I feel like I'm going to spend my entire life arguing against universal metas of resistance/avalon even though nobody else cares and the game will be long forgotten.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 23:41
|
|
|
Lampsacus posted:Also I feel like I'm going to spend my entire life arguing against universal metas of resistance/avalon even though nobody else cares and the game will be long forgotten. Oh i am with you. I have had some very frustrating talks with people who like insist "this is the right way to play the game and its boring but you have to do it like this because its how you get your wins in the long run" and they don't realize that isn't the case at all but that in their group they are the one who kinda controls the meta in that regard.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 23:54
|
|
|
I sometimes wonder what would happen if you had people who had an established [social deduction game] meta to a game of Chicago Express or similar Winsome. How long, if ever, it would take them to break out of a meta. Sadly, different player counts and likely people who don't want to play the other game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 00:01
|
|
|
Chill la Chill posted:I sometimes wonder what would happen if you had people who had an established [social deduction game] meta to a game of Chicago Express or similar Winsome. How long, if ever, it would take them to break out of a meta. Sadly, different player counts and likely people who don't want to play the other game. Chicago Express is especially egregious to me because I'm sure someone has figured out the optimal opening bids. 18xx gets flak from outsiders for having the early game strongly determining the end game, which is true to various degrees depending on the game, but if you gently caress up CE's opening bid you're just out of the game unless everyone else equally hosed up. You'll never get paid enough to win any auction that matters and taking actions just pushes the clock faster towards increase-the-wage-gap payday.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 00:46
|
|
|
On 2p Root: I may have just imagined this whole cloth, but I seem to recall someone saying that one of the design goals of the new Mole faction was to provide a satisfying and balanced 2P war game VS the Cats.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 01:41
|
|
|
I still want to see some testing of my 2p Root variant: you each play 2 factions (in 1a2a1b2b turn order) and the game ends normally but your score is your lower of the two factions. Draft your factions 1 2 2 1 (no double vagabond).
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 02:06
|
|
|
1v1 woodland alliance only, no items, winter side
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 02:23
|
|
|
Bottom Liner posted:I still want to see some testing of my 2p Root variant: you each play 2 factions (in 1a2a1b2b turn order) and the game ends normally but your score is your lower of the two factions. Draft your factions 1 2 2 1 (no double vagabond). The biggest issue I see is that the Vagabond feeding cards, especially to the WA, is insane. I would have a "no trading with yourself" rule. e: No trading with yourself, Vagabond is permanently allied with your other faction and can't do anything that would trigger hostility. Theoretically that last bit really helps the WA in combat but would make a bird-backed wolf a loving Dark Souls boss. al-azad fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Jul 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 02:24
|
|
|
Played Imperial Settlers: Empires of the North today and it was loving awful. The main problem is that it's a tableau builder based around a limited action economy, but you can buy more actions every turn. The first few turns will go nice and smoothly, but as the game goes on people will be taking thirteen or more turns a round. Theoretically what you can do is limited by resources, but the problem is that nearly everything you do will get you resources. The hardest limit in the game are the 4 big clan actions that are governed by a rondel, but not only are there accessible ways to circumvent that limit, you can double up on actions, defeating the entire purpose of rondels. It's as if Ignacy went "It feels bad to want to take an action, but not have the resources to do it, so in this game, I will make sure that never happens."
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 02:38
|
|
|
I hated the original imperial settlers, what's this now?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 02:53
|
|
|
Ignacy always learns the wrong lessons. It's incredible to think that imperial settlers followed 51st state, considering how much better 51st state is.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 06:12
|
|
|
Does that mean his Mars game is somehow worse than Robinson Crusoe?
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 07:09
|
|
|
That actually seems to be the prevailing sentiment
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 07:13
|
|
|
Yeah from what I gather, Robinson Crusoe is an unbalanced but enjoyable mess of a coop, First Martians is an unenjoyable fiddly app driven mess.
silvergoose fucked around with this message at 12:12 on Jul 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:00
|
|
|
When First Martians first came out, I watched the hour long rules explanation video made by Watch it Played or someone else (I can't remember) because I hate myself. I can't understand how you'd be able to teach that game in real life.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:07
|
|
|
Oh! We've been super bad about being loud this year, but VlaadaCon is this Saturday, in Holliston, MA. Full day of Vlaada games, your chance to play one of the bigger ones face to face, just play endless variants of Codenames, or try out an obscure one like Graenaland. http://www.vlaadacon.org/
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:14
|
|
|
Jewmanji posted:I keep imagining a Marquis/Eyrie matchup and all I can see is the Marquise taking 1-4 March actions a turn and basically playing keep away from whatever clearings the Eyrie have to battle in, and send them into perpetual turmoil. Would the Eyrie have any way to prevent this? Eyrie can use bird cards for attacks, or use suits where the cats have lots of buildings/wood. Not to mention avoiding battle suits means ignoring bird roosts in those suits.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:19
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:Yeah from what I gather, Robinson Crusoe is an unbalanced but enjoyable mess of a coop, First Martians is an unenjoyable fiddly app driven mess. I agree, except Robinson Crusoe is not enjoyable.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:27
|
|
|
Jedit posted:I agree, except Robinson Crusoe is not enjoyable. I've not played either but I know of people who enjoy RC and I can't say I've heard a single good thing about FM.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 12:45
|
|
|
Robinson Crusoe is a charming mess, that through a combination of good theme, good bits and some cool ideas that lead to some interesting story-telling (when they work) that together can provide an interesting time. First Martian kills the theme and makes the bits all generic, and gets rid of the exciting story-telling, leaving you with really, just the mechanisms.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 14:23
|
|
|
Root chat. Played a 3 player game v. the cats and birds as the woodland alliance and their gameplay clicked. I now see why they've been nerfed a bit in the latest rules. You can get some crazy 8-10 point turns in the late game by spreading influence with warriors, and you can earn even more if you have craftable items. Our group is starting to get into the game more and a meta is starting to develop. It's good fun and it's nice change of pace from Gloomhaven, which has been the game of choice for the past 18 months.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 14:48
|
|
|
Afriscipio posted:Root chat. Played a 3 player game v. the cats and birds as the woodland alliance and their gameplay clicked. I now see why they've been nerfed a bit in the latest rules. You can get some crazy 8-10 point turns in the late game by spreading influence with warriors, and you can earn even more if you have craftable items. I won as the WA last night for the first time ever in a tight game. Vagabond had what looked like a comfortable lead, then the birds played a Fox Domination and while we were preventing that, the cats played a Mouse Domination. Before it got back to his turn, I was able to craft 2 3vp items, then move and convert 1 warrior to sympathy, getting exactly the 9 VPs I needed to win. Probably the most enjoyable game of Root any of us have yet played.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 16:38
|
|
|
xiw posted:Yeah this is my biggest problem with Resistance - you get the occasional game where the spies just can't do anything because the first couple of missions don't have spies on them and the resistance aren't risking anything to keep trying the dream team. This is especially bad if you have new players as spies and if the spies happen to be last in turn order. It seems like an easy hack for that would be to have the spies decide the turn order.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 17:23
|
|
|
Glazius posted:It seems like an easy hack for that would be to have the spies decide the turn order. The whole point of the game is that half the players don't actually know who the spies are.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 17:47
|
|
|
Do people have any thoughts on Gotham City Chronicles? I know SUSD weren't really fans of it, but I trust goon opinions more.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
OurIntrepidHero posted:Do people have any thoughts on Gotham City Chronicles? I know SUSD weren't really fans of it, but I trust goon opinions more. Too much plastic, not enough game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 18:15
|
|
|
OurIntrepidHero posted:Do people have any thoughts on Gotham City Chronicles? I know SUSD weren't really fans of it, but I trust goon opinions more. The issues they highlighted are valid, but overblown. Rulebook is pretty poor, and like most scenario-based games the devil is in the scenario-specific rules and weird edge cases. There's a stupid amount of iconography that can be a burden, but I'm finding that the more I play it the more I can just remember and intuit things without having to reference stuff. Lack of supplied player aids is a criminal oversight. Overall I think the system is just lovely, and is definitely the most satisfying minis combat system to be found in boardgames. When it feels good it is AWESOME. Little bit of work, but as you get proficient with rules it's a lot smoother I think it's worth the effort. Honestly if you see the cube/action system and how it works you'll likely already know if it appeals (That and the Batman IP, anyway)
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 18:19
|
|
|
^^ sort of sounds like SVWAG's conclusion that Gotham City Chronicles would work if your group dedicates the time into learning it and playing with it several times.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 18:59
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:I've not played either but I know of people who enjoy RC and I can't say I've heard a single good thing about FM. The End posted:Robinson Crusoe is a charming mess, that through a combination of good theme, good bits and some cool ideas that lead to some interesting story-telling (when they work) that together can provide an interesting time. First Martian kills the theme and makes the bits all generic, and gets rid of the exciting story-telling, leaving you with really, just the mechanisms. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more RC feels like "Don't Starve Together for people without computers, except bad."
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
medchem posted:^^ sort of sounds like SVWAG's conclusion that Gotham City Chronicles would work if your group dedicates the time into learning it and playing with it several times. Yeah that's very much the case, although I've had success playing with multiple groups. I'd say that rather than having to have your entire group comfortable with it, it's totally workable just to have one person familiar with things. Looking up/referencing rules is always the killer. One "expert" is enough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 19:32
|
|
|
I enjoy whenever SVWAG discusses being the 'rules explainer' and the issues that come along with that role. As the person who is almost thrust into that role, I'm always struggling to find the best ways for communicating, referencing, and using information to make the best experience for people I'm with.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
silvergoose posted:Oh! We've been super bad about being loud this year, but VlaadaCon is this Saturday, in Holliston, MA. Full day of Vlaada games, your chance to play one of the bigger ones face to face, just play endless variants of Codenames, or try out an obscure one like Graenaland. http://www.vlaadacon.org/ Oh god, I missed last year, and this is so close, am I really going to miss it again just because I am goony and awkward? But none of my friends like Galaxy Trucker, the bastards. Speaking of awkward, I played Terraforming Mars for the first time yesterday. I can definitely see the appeal. The way you increase your production and it gets expend as different currencies for different things is pretty satisfying and finding card combos is fun. However, even when drafting, you are super beholden to the deck and what you draw, and the ones that are flat useless early or late are a drag. Also, holy gently caress this game is like 3 hours long. It has no business being that long. Also, the fact that they have the Capital icon on Noctis City is stupid confusing and should have not gotten out of the factory that way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 21:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 21:45 |
|
|
PMush Perfect posted:Honestly, the more I think about it, the more RC feels like "Don't Starve Together for people without computers, and still bad." FTFY
|
|
#
?
Jul 24, 2019 22:05
|
|