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Zachack posted:But that box already opened in the first episode of the season when Switch undid David's death. Syd is already erased. So is David. Time travel and souls don't really mesh. So if Switch went back in time to the last 15 minutes of season 2 and kicked David in the nuts then from David and Syds perspective everything would be fine and David would still be with the Syd he knows. I don't think they were referring to the concept of a soul or how it would be affected, simply that the current Syd as she exists now would be erased and replaced with a new version based on whatever changes David makes. If David goes back and does something that fundamentally changes the timeline so he no longer goes to Clockworks they will never meet and fall in love. Also I don't think we got her exact feelings or thoughts on the subject as she was sweet talking David to get close enough to touch him. I'm really enjoying this thread of the story as I think it touches on something commonly experienced which is regret and a desire for a second chance. The difference is David is a traumatized schizophrenic with the power to actually make it happen. If you were given the chance to have a "do over" would you take it knowing the consequences? You would no longer be you. I don't want to conflate but would you be committing suicide in essence?
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Jul 25, 2019 18:02
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no, because the "you" the erased yourself never existed, therefore "you" never committed suicide, qed
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Jul 25, 2019 18:28
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Corte posted:I don't think they were referring to the concept of a soul or how it would be affected, simply that the current Syd as she exists now would be erased and replaced with a new version based on whatever changes David makes. If David goes back and does something that fundamentally changes the timeline so he no longer goes to Clockworks they will never meet and fall in love. Also I don't think we got her exact feelings or thoughts on the subject as she was sweet talking David to get close enough to touch him. This is true, but in relation to Syds speech it doesn't really matter any more based on events from two consecutive episodes, one where David "erases" Syd by purging the Farouk influences, and then again when Switch erases two Syds that successfully kill David. It's a philosophical question that can't withstand being made real without also defining other unknowns like the existence of a soul or how time travel actually works. Essentially, why is the current time stream the correct one?
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Jul 25, 2019 19:29
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Zachack posted:But that box already opened in the first episode of the season when Switch undid David's death. Syd is already erased. So is David. Time travel and souls don't really mesh. So if Switch went back in time to the last 15 minutes of season 2 and kicked David in the nuts then from David and Syds perspective everything would be fine and David would still be with the Syd he knows. I have no idea what souls have to do with any of this unless you're trying to tie it to some ineffable, permanent concept of self, but it's hardly necessary. Zachack posted:Essentially, why is the current time stream the correct one?
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Jul 25, 2019 20:57
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Corte posted:I appreciate your contributions to the thread as it has made me consider angles and theories I otherwise might not have. I had a different interpretation of the interaction between Syd and David. I believe she was telling him what he wanted to hear so she could get close enough to touch him and switch bodies. The reason I believe this to be the case is her calm reaction when David tells her Farouk betrayed them: "he didn't like our plan". I don't think Syd has ever trusted Farouk just saw him as a necessary evil to combat David and prevent the end of the world. That doesn't mean there wasn't truth in her words but I don't think it's exactly what she believes. uber_stoat posted:yeah, generally all the musical numbers are representative of some kind of psychic tomfoolery. the very first one in the show was David mindfucking Syd. As for the whole "does it matter which Syd you are" discussion, here's the reminder of the best episode from Season 2; where we see the alternate realities of what could have happened to David if something had changed earlier in his life. It's entirely possible that this episode ends up getting referenced for the next bit of traveling David does. That aside, I think if you were traveling through time without the training Switch is going through, it's incredibly easy to suddenly see your present state as inconsequential if you don't ascribe to the multiverse theory. In fact, if you followed the most well known version of time travel, Back to the Future's, David's perspective isn't purely psychopathic, it's cold logic. I'm not saying the means justify the ends, I'm just saying it's easier for him to believe that what he's doing will be better for everyone. Edit: Come to think of it, Switch's training in this episode specifically calls out the fact that you, as a time traveler, will find your life to be inconsequential. I wish this was one of those shows where the full instruction set was posted online somewhere so you knew what kind of training Switch was going through ahead of time as a sort of hint as to what the season would involve. This is fun stuff! Yay, Legion didn't suck this season! Now they just have to land this thing. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jul 25, 2019 |
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Jul 25, 2019 21:26
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so. what's david's intended destination? I'm guessing dad's fight with farouk, which would be baller.
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Jul 25, 2019 21:36
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DaveKap posted:I'm not going to get into an argument about it but I do not believe this. I 100% do not believe this. This thread is the only place I've ever seen the suggestion brought up that David manipulated Syd in episode 1. I'm not even disagreeing with you because I dislike the idea, I actually think it would be amazing if they wound up having the twist-conceit of the show be "David is so powerful he's passively making his wishes into reality".. Hasn't this been directly stated in the show? Or only by Farouk and therefore 'unreliable'? It's definitely been my takeaway. Or at least that we (and Syd, and other characters) can't know that it's not true.
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Jul 25, 2019 23:57
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AtraMorS posted:A Syd was already erased. The Syd talking to David in the most recent episode is not that Syd because, as you say, that Syd was erased. This contemporary one has no memory of either successful attack; from this Syd's POV, they showed up at David's and found a crater. If Switch did as you say, then the Syd that David currently knows--i.e., the Syd that he raped--would disappear, so no, it would not be "the Syd he knows." It would be the Syd he knew. No, it would be the Syd that David knows, because it would be the David that the audience knew, up until that moment. The David in the conversation in the last episode would also cease to exist. The concept of self or souls or whatever is relevant because quote:Because it is the one in which people currently exist.
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Jul 26, 2019 00:06
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scary ghost dog posted:for what its worth i cant think of any examples of toxic masculinity displayed by david......hes very sensitive and emotional. not a lot of alpha posturing from this broken boy. i dont think hes worried at all about his perceived manliness I don't know that it's toxic masculinity per se, but when he goes into the spiels about "fixing" everything it's somewhat reminiscent of a domestic abuser saying they'll change after an assault and essentially forgoing responsibility. Maybe that is what people are homing in on.
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Jul 26, 2019 00:08
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I'm sold on the theory there was some unconcious manipulation of Syd the first time she met David. I thought it was a little weird that she seemed so quick to become so possessive/protective of him but I chalked it to loneliness/the style. Same with Switch. I'm pretty set on every dance number representing psychic activity. night slime posted:I don't know that it's toxic masculinity per se, but when he goes into the spiels about "fixing" everything it's somewhat reminiscent of a domestic abuser saying they'll change after an assault and essentially forgoing responsibility. Maybe that is what people are homing in on. crepeface fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 01:41
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Zachack posted:No, it would be the Syd that David knows, because it would be the David that the audience knew, up until that moment. The David in the conversation in the last episode would also cease to exist.  quote:The concept of self or souls or whatever is relevant because As far as Switch goes, I've been reading her as a villain. When she talks about everybody else being robots and stuff, she reminds me of the Jon Hamm voiceovers about delusion from last season. She thinks like a sociopath.
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Jul 26, 2019 02:31
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DaveKap posted:Oh, no, don't get me wrong here. I know she was sweet talking him. She likely doesn't believe what she's saying to him but what she's saying to him is what actually happened. As show watchers, we have definitive proof that a manipulated Melanie bent the truth and context of situations in order to control Syd and convince her of incorrect information. Just hearing her admit it feels nice to me, as a viewer, so I know the show writers understand what they've set up so that we, along with David, can feel the sympathy with the primary difference between the viewer and David being that the viewer knows it's deception while the foregone David does not. In the end, it's actually loving crazy to me that they pulled this off the way they did. I still think it's gross that rape had to be involved to get to this place but at least it wasn't left on the cutting room floor as "a mistake the previous writers made." It really feels like they're going to tie everything (within reason... I'm looking at you, stupid Minotaur cave) up in these last episodes, even David's sister in Lenny's body is likely getting a payoff. (Nobody seemed to mention it but did ya'll notice she's merging with that tree she's dead on? Remind anyone of what Ptonomy went through?) I'm certainly more hopeful now than I was when the season began. I'm loving the optimism and understand what you meant. I think it's great on another level too in that Syd is self-aware of these events, I can't recall if there had ever been a previous scene where she showed recognition that she was manipulated in the cave. I guess she may not believe that still but I think it's more interesting if she recognizes the mistake and still stays on her path because stopping the end of the world is more important.
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Jul 26, 2019 02:33
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rapeface posted:I'm sold on the theory there was some unconcious manipulation of Syd the first time she met David. I thought it was a little weird that she seemed so quick to become so possessive/protective of him but I chalked it to loneliness/the style. I have to disagree for the reasons DaveKap already listed. I would also add that the show has clearly shown Switch being manipulated by David whereas the same cannot be said for Syd. It would also cheapen the big build up around him wiping her memory at the end of season 2. The only way it would make sense is if it David did it unconsciously which I guess is possible. I wonder if I could relate this to the Jon Hamm bits from season 2 about how we perceive reality...
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Jul 26, 2019 02:39
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DaveKap posted:(Nobody seemed to mention it but did ya'll notice she's merging with that tree she's dead on? Remind anyone of what Ptonomy went through?) It reminded me of the tree guy who was in the first episode of the series, at Clockworks. And I just realized that the mental hospital from the start of the show was called 'Clockworks.'
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Jul 26, 2019 02:40
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Corte posted:I have to disagree for the reasons DaveKap already listed. I would also add that the show has clearly shown Switch being manipulated by David whereas the same cannot be said for Syd. It would also cheapen the big build up around him wiping her memory at the end of season 2. The only way it would make sense is if it David did it unconsciously which I guess is possible. I wonder if I could relate this to the Jon Hamm bits from season 2 about how we perceive reality... I didn't want to quote DaveKap because I didn't want to pare down the post to the relevant part on my phone, but he had reasons? I thought he just said he didn't believe it. And yeah, I think the initial mental manipulation was unconscious, especially since David hadn't come into his full power. Fake Edit: DaveKap posted:I'm not going to get into an argument about it but I do not believe this. I 100% do not believe this. This thread is the only place I've ever seen the suggestion brought up that David manipulated Syd in episode 1. I'm not even disagreeing with you because I dislike the idea, I actually think it would be amazing if they wound up having the twist-conceit of the show be "David is so powerful he's passively making his wishes into reality" and I don't disagree that they've used a couple musical numbers to represent psychic things happening but I do not think all of them do. It just feels like you make most of the show pointless if the power of David's love for Syd was a farce the entire series. I really don't see how it makes the show pointless if the theme was how abusers delude everyone including themselves about their actions (if that even is the theme). I don't really see the central core of the show as the power of love. crepeface fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 04:37
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night slime posted:I don't know that it's toxic masculinity per se, but when he goes into the spiels about "fixing" everything it's somewhat reminiscent of a domestic abuser saying they'll change after an assault and essentially forgoing responsibility. Maybe that is what people are homing in on. its the mentality of an addict
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Jul 26, 2019 04:37
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I was just getting that David feels entitled to love and happiness, and only he is entitled to that. He needs to fix the world so he can have Syd, so that his enemies are gone, his family is together. It reminds me of that line in BoJack Horseman were Todd yells at BoJack and says "You can't just keep doing lovely things and then feeling bad about it, BE BETTER".
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Jul 26, 2019 04:50
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believing you're basically entitled to love is not some noxious historical idea that someone cooked up. ask any child ever born if they deserve to be loved or deserve to be hated and--unless they've been systematically brutalized--they'll all give you the same answer. the themes are psychological not sociological.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:08
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David's not a child and if someone doesn't grow out of believing only their perception matters, then they are a narcissist. He believes he deserves love from Syd and is literally changing reality because he doesn't accept her rejection.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:21
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There's a notable distinction between the concepts of deserving love in general, being worthy of love, and deserving love in particular. Having positive, loving connections with other people is a human need, and everyone can be worth loving. But you're not entitled to be loved by whoever you want in whatever way you want.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:22
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Supercar Gautier posted:There's a notable distinction between the concepts of deserving love in general, being worthy of love, and deserving love in particular. But as a person who has not real experienced love at all, how would you know the difference.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:23
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I don't want to restart that argument last page but I think its important to underline that its not his mental illness that is causing David's current actions, its his short comings in regards to empathy and consequence coupled with the ability to act without any consequences (at least to himself). Even in the first season, when he was at his most sympathetic, there was an edge to him, a wanton disregard for anything that wasn't himself (he was even a destructive kid, thinking of him being in the police car and laughing as things explode. Blame it on the drugs/Farouk, but especially now felt like it was hinting at his current trajectory). I don't know if that's toxic masculinity, but its an interesting character flaw exponentially inflated by the unique contours of what his life has given him. His poor mother...
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Jul 26, 2019 05:27
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He's also been driven insane by a demon who possessed him when he was a child, by abilities that he had to read minds and influence reality that he didn't understand, and by organizations that constantly tried to capture and imprison or outright kill him. I mean I get what everyone is saying about the parallels to how people ought to behave, but let's be honest, we're not talking about some average chud here. He's never been safe, he's never felt safe, and he wants to feel safe. It's an understandable desire, and his stunted emotional growth and alienation from society only made him more likely to fall down a destructive path. It's a tragedy, both what he did to others, and himself. No one is saying Hamlet is a hero to be emulated, but hopefully you feel some sort of empathy for his character. ashpanash fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 05:32
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ashpanash posted:He's also been driven insane by a demon who possessed him when he was a child, by abilities that he had to read minds and influence reality that he didn't understand, and by organizations that constantly tried to capture and imprison or outright kill him. I mean I get what everyone is saying about the parallels to how people ought to behave, but let's be honest, we're not talking about some average chud here. Well, yeah, it's a theme. You could use Farouk as a analogy for drugs, schizophrenia or violent videogames or whatever. I don't think it's about blaming David, it's about what the showrunner is trying to say with his character.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:38
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Shageletic posted:I don't want to restart that argument last page but I think its important to underline that its not his mental illness that is causing David's current actions, its his short comings in regards to empathy and consequence coupled with the ability to act without any consequences (at least to himself). But those are trademark symptoms of various and some mental illnesses, including sociopathy and psycopathy. Even some garden variety autistic goons have reduced empathy.
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Jul 26, 2019 05:43
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rapeface posted:David's not a child and if someone doesn't grow out of believing only their perception matters, then they are a narcissist. He believes he deserves love from Syd and is literally changing reality because he doesn't accept her rejection. Zane fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Jul 26, 2019 |
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Jul 26, 2019 05:43
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rapeface posted:I'm pretty set on every dance number representing psychic activity. I was a bit sceptical of the idea at the start, but the first episode of season 2, with the dance battle in the nightclub cemented it for me. Even the final battle of wills at the end of the season was set to Blue Eyes. The only time the show's ever used musical/dance numbers is when psychic fuckery is going on.
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Jul 26, 2019 06:18
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Zane posted:except david's mental framework is very closely analogous to a child's mental framework as typologized by classical psychological theory. freud literally defines childhood as a stage of fundamental narcissism within his classical typology of human development. children are fundamentally narcissistic because they haven't yet been socialized--and don't entirely have the capacity--to discern the existence of and balance the difference between the needs of the self (fulfilling your desires) against the needs of others (constraining your desires). but the imperative for balancing the two realities of self and world--the conventional development of 'adult morality'--is even more difficult, if not impossible, for david, because it isn't entirely clear--with his incredible capacities--that there is any substantive difference between them. that is: it isn't entirely clear that the world is anything more than a) an active reflection of his own nightmares and demons and/or b) a passive site for him to project his own desires upon. Well... okay. That doesn't invalidate a reading of the show as one with abuses of power themes though. Both themes can exist. I think the patriarchal/masculine critiques are undeniable. The love interest accuses the protagonist of rape and he has a love cult who call him daddy. Melanie had a depressing rant about being men always leaving women behind. Maybe the cause of David's stunted growth is solely because of Farouk and mental illness. That doesn't mean that its expression is not meant to convey something about the patriarchy or whatever.
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Jul 26, 2019 06:20
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I was a bit sceptical of the idea at the start, but the first episode of season 2, with the dance battle in the nightclub cemented it for me. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Just because you have examples of powers being used during musical numbers does not necessarily mean that all musical numbers are meant to symbolize use of powers. I don't think the musical number at the end of the latest episode was meant to signify David using his power. I think it was a device used to allow the viewer to reflect on themes of the show and see how far all the character's have come.
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Jul 26, 2019 06:38
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Zane posted:except david's mental framework is very closely analogous to a child's mental framework as typologized by classical psychological theory. freud literally defines childhood as a stage of fundamental narcissism within his classical typology of human development. children are fundamentally narcissistic because they haven't yet been socialized--and don't entirely have the capacity--to discern the existence of and balance the difference between the needs of the self (fulfilling your desires) against the needs of others (constraining your desires). but the imperative for balancing the two realities of self and world--the conventional development of 'adult morality'--is even more difficult, if not impossible, for david, because it isn't entirely clear--with his incredible capacities--that there is any substantive difference between them. that is: it isn't entirely clear that the world is anything more than a) an active reflection of his own nightmares and demons and/or b) a passive site for him to project his own desires upon. When did Freud start being taken seriously again? He's been discredited for years.
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Jul 26, 2019 06:38
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AtraMorS posted:Yeah I lost you here. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything. The conversation just officially got too abstract. I think the show also does a poor job of saying why that's bad for David vis a vis "the Syd you know will be gone", because David since the end of S2 has seen... maybe 15 minutes of Syd, and she keeps trying to kill him? From his perspective she may as well have had a stroke and her brain went nuts like Kevin Sorbo, so fixing that seems like a really good idea to him. quote:What I'm saying (and what Syd was trying to explain to David) is that the people who currently exist matter more than people who do not. That's all. Therefore, the current existence--whatever it is, however hosed up it is--has value over an existence that does not yet exist, and it is wrong to forcibly wipe away all of those current lives even if the goal is to replace them with something "better." I also assume Kerry would like a reset so maybe she can finally get into a fight where she doesn't lose.
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Jul 26, 2019 06:45
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Testicle Masochist posted:When did Freud start being taken seriously again? He's been discredited for years. Great response
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Jul 26, 2019 06:52
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Corte posted:I think that's a bit of a stretch. Just because you have examples of powers being used during musical numbers does not necessarily mean that all musical numbers are meant to symbolize use of powers. I don't think the musical number at the end of the latest episode was meant to signify David using his power. I think it was a device used to allow the viewer to reflect on themes of the show and see how far all the character's have come. So why is Switch suddenly co-operative when previously she was refusing?
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Jul 26, 2019 06:57
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Rocksicles posted:But those are trademark symptoms of various and some mental illnesses, including sociopathy and psycopathy. Even some garden variety autistic goons have reduced empathy. But are we sure that he is sociopathic? Also mental illness does not of course mean a person is gonna commit something awful. Its Davids character that is the problem here and not his illness.
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Jul 26, 2019 07:00
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Shageletic posted:But are we sure that he is sociopathic? Also mental illness does not of course mean a person is gonna commit something awful. Its Davids character that is the problem here and not his illness. I never said he was, i said it's a symptom of various, including that. Empathy is something you can lose from depression or never have at all. But David doesn't just have stock standard BPD, he literally collects multiple personalities all bouncing ideas off himself. He is Legion so, you can't pin everything going wrong with him on any particular thing. He's bascially cloud storage for hosed up thoughts and feelings.
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Jul 26, 2019 07:15
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Wafflecopper posted:So why is Switch suddenly co-operative when previously she was refusing? I'm not saying Switch isn't being influenced by David. There's the scene where he is preaching to his flock and sends out those good vibes, Switch is clearly affected by that. Otherwise I haven't seen anything to suggest David is controlling her directly. Keep in mind she came to him and clearly has her own motivations, it also just makes for a more interesting story. If you're saying the last scene was meant to show David exerting his power to control Switch I didn't read it that way. I didn't interpret their interaction as her refusing David, she certainly was questioning him about how he felt about murdering most of Division 3. I think the musical sequence was a creative device to bookend this arc of the season, reflect on how far the characters have come and lead us into the final stretch.
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Jul 26, 2019 07:40
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Corte posted:I'm not saying Switch isn't being influenced by David. There's the scene where he is preaching to his flock and sends out those good vibes, Switch is clearly affected by that. Otherwise I haven't seen anything to suggest David is controlling her directly. Keep in mind she came to him and clearly has her own motivations, it also just makes for a more interesting story. If you're saying the last scene was meant to show David exerting his power to control Switch I didn't read it that way. I didn't interpret their interaction as her refusing David, she certainly was questioning him about how he felt about murdering most of Division 3. I think the musical sequence was a creative device to bookend this arc of the season, reflect on how far the characters have come and lead us into the final stretch. You can have your own motivations and be under some kind of control. Kerry was obviously under David's control but wasn't a mindless automaton. David was similarly under Farouk's control. Switch had a dance number when she first entered David's safehouse. And I think wafflecopter is saying that Switch wasn't cooperating when David initially wanted to go back right before the Time Demons attacked. I'm not sure about just songs/music, but dancing for sure is psychic manipulation.
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Jul 26, 2019 08:06
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Testicle Masochist posted:When did Freud start being taken seriously again? He's been discredited for years. These are just theoretical models to explain subjective human experiences and all are flawed in their own ways. Freud's ideas may be dated, but his work is literally the foundation of psychodynamic theory and his work forms the basis for the entire discipline. It would be nonsense to say that those who have taken his work and extended and refined it through to the modern day are "discrediting" him just because they have found more accurate ways to explain the phenomena that he discovered.
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Jul 26, 2019 08:27
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Corte posted:I didn't interpret their interaction as her refusing David, she certainly was questioning him about how he felt about murdering most of Division 3. I wasn't referring to that, I meant in the time demon episode when he was saying (paraphrasing) "we have to go back again!" and she was saying "no I can't it's too much", he says "do I have to force you?" before they're interrupted by the demons.
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Jul 26, 2019 11:09
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rapeface posted:I'm not sure about just songs/music, but dancing for sure is psychic manipulation. The difference is between the diegetic and non-diegetic music/songs. If it's background music, then whatever. But if we're seeing people singing the song, then there's fuckery about.
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Jul 26, 2019 11:18
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