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Loomer posted:I own no less than two copies of Gypsies as the first seller sent me a late reprint and I needed the original to be sure there weren't any quiet changes between the original and the revised reprint. The curse of WoD Gypsies was passed along to you.
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Jul 26, 2019 17:48
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Loomer posted:I own no less than two copies of Gypsies as the first seller sent me a late reprint and I needed the original to be sure there weren't any quiet changes between the original and the revised reprint. You now have a fair amount of kindling, if you one page at a time, or a small amount of fuel, if you burn it in a lump. Have a bonfire. I don't condone book burnings. But I'm pointing out.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:38
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Halloween Jack posted:i would be kinder to these fan projects if they were better researched, which is not that hard. The typical list of inspirations is like 2 actual classics of whatever subsubgenre they're dealing with, a pile of random plots and supporting characters taken out of context from works that aren't actually about [monster type], and anime. holy poo poo, I think you just created a unified field theorem of fan works
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Jul 26, 2019 19:03
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Kurieg posted:Don't forget the stereotype quotes about Prometheans that amounted to "Why the gently caress do you want to be human, you really should be killing these people." It's kind of sad when devs don't get their companies own games.
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Jul 26, 2019 19:04
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Absent the Poochie Aura that could be taken as "Beasts very much do not get Prometheans" but, like, they're supposed to end up as friends anyway.
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Jul 26, 2019 19:15
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Frankly I think the special anti-relationship that demons have with beasts is to the detriment of the demons, because it reminds you that DtD is also a MacFarland product and that's why demons get singled out by the Poochie splat.
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Jul 26, 2019 19:39
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Ferrinus posted:Frankly I think the special anti-relationship that demons have with beasts is to the detriment of the demons, because it reminds you that DtD is also a MacFarland product and that's why demons get singled out by the Poochie splat. Uh...didn't he also do Promethean?
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Jul 26, 2019 20:00
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Effortpost incoming: So after getting got, I rolled up an Independent Setite for my LARP. I have no experience playing as (or even with, really) other Setites in 10 years of Camarilla-based LARPing, so I was going in blind. My concept was approved and lauded by the STs as a Matt-Taibbi-style muckraker, the idea being how better to corrupt and get the Cam to tear itself apart than to sell its secrets back to the other members. My Setite (Frank Lyon Wall. F. Lyon Wall, get it?  ) is bouncing around, being suitably accommodating to Cam members while making sure they know I'm happy to talk with them off-the-record for my kindred-only newsletter, Up Against the Wall.So that's all well and good, but I'm looking out at the future, after having consumed what useful bits there are in the Clanbook about actually playing a Setite (instead of masturbatory lore about the Dark Ages). But I'm foreseeing a problem. Most of the Setite lore points to getting folks to indulge while whispering the sweet nothings of (essentially) LaVey Satanism but that only works when you have NPCs to flex against. Setite powers are subtle, but not when you stop play and specifically instruct a PC to throw a chop and then retcon their own opinions. And while I'm a strong enough player to realize "hey, the fall of Greg Gangrel as he submits to the influence of a Setite and sells out his clan" is a cool story to play, there are certainly members of the LARP who view "survive and be strong enough to never be killed" as interesting-enough motivation to put on blue jeans and a Deadpool T-Shirt and come to game playing an Elder (yes this is real) So my question is, how do I go about probing the other players and/or STs to make sure my whole clan's concept isn't strangled in the crib since there are almost no NPCs in the game that aren't punching bags for the deranged players who want to do mass combat in a White Wolf game that absolutely cannot handle that. How do I (or do I?) approach other players explaining my plans for their characters that, from a certain viewpoint, are "me winning, them losing" instead of "telling a cool story that makes their character the centerpiece of larger plots"? Did I shoot myself in the foot by going IA? by going Setite? by LARPing at all?
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Jul 26, 2019 20:04
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The big problem you're going to run into, especially if you're playing in the MES as I suspect, is that most of the people you're playing with won't have written any hooks for you to grab them by.
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Jul 26, 2019 20:10
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joylessdivision posted:Uh...didn't he also do Promethean? He worked on a ton of stuff, but he was a project lead on Demon (albeit along with Rose Bailey).
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Jul 26, 2019 20:46
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joylessdivision posted:Uh...didn't he also do Promethean? Only 2e.
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Jul 26, 2019 21:04
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:He worked on a ton of stuff, but he was a project lead on Demon (albeit along with Rose Bailey). Sorry, I meant I thought he was lead on Promethean too, which is why it's weird that only one of his projects is all about "No gently caress these guys" I mean, from a mechanical point I can kinda see why Demons would be the only ones who don't like Beasts because they aren't really part of the supernatural ecosystem the say way the other monsters are, but it's still loving dumb. God I hate Beast.
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Jul 26, 2019 21:04
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Pope Guilty posted:The big problem you're going to run into, especially if you're playing in the MES as I suspect, is that most of the people you're playing with won't have written any hooks for you to grab them by. UT, using BNS/V20 rules. National org, but we had an org-wide chronicle reset 6 months ago so nobody's got those ultra elders yet
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Jul 26, 2019 21:40
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Shrecknet posted:Did I shoot myself in the foot by [...] LARPing at all? I mean, I think you already know the answer. Just have enough fun to make your suffering worthwhile, and pull the ripcord when that ratio turns.
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Jul 26, 2019 22:50
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joylessdivision posted:Sorry, I meant I thought he was lead on Promethean too, which is why it's weird that only one of his projects is all about "No gently caress these guys" He was developer of Promethean from the first 1e supplement onward. The only thing he didn't develop was the 1e corebook. Demons being an exception for kinship doesn't bother me so much, because mechanically it makes sense that the spy guys who can't even identify each other reliably would be an exception for the Poochie Finds His Friends powerset. None of the in-setting justifications for why this exception exists make any sense, and the execution of this exception is nonsense, involves a ton of rolloffs instead of just simple immunity, and one of its default results is that Poochie automatically gets blackmailed by the demon, without the demon's participation or consent. joylessdivision posted:God I hate Beast.
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Jul 26, 2019 23:27
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Shrecknet posted:UT, using BNS/V20 rules. National org, but we had an org-wide chronicle reset 6 months ago so nobody's got those ultra elders yet Didn't UT and the MES do some kind of joint thing? I haven't LARPed in a minute so I'm out of the loop.
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Jul 27, 2019 00:37
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Remora posted:I mean, I think you already know the answer. Just have enough fun to make your suffering worthwhile, and pull the ripcord when that ratio turns. Yeah exactly. The problems you've outlined are pretty universally true of all vampire LARPs I've played in or run. Characters who are bland sacks of stats with not enough roughage to find any sort of purchase. A frankly hostile player atmosphere that sees attempts to manipulate or manuver not as fun challenges but annoying, scoff-worthy nonsense to be overcome, often at the ooc level. My advice is to avoid PCs who absolutely won't play ball and find ones who will; you're usually not completely alone. Be prepared to be the change and allow other PCs to manipulate you before they'll trust you enough to do the inverse. Ask permission ooc to manipulate or control other characters, this will also go a long way. Also force the STs to let you interact with NPCs, your best tricks are limited too much if you aren't allowed any humans to uss them on.
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Jul 27, 2019 02:25
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I find it ironic that I like the game where you play as cops (werewolf the forsaken) more than the game where you play as environmentalists (werewolf the apocalypse). To be fair, the "environmentalists" in Apocalypse are literally right-winged racial and sexual stereotypes who openly commit eugenics and xenophobic violence on a daily basis. And while it's probably meant to be "apolitical" (read: impossible to do), I find it ironic that probably the most right-winged WOD game is also the only one where being MORE of a cop actually makes you less human. IMHO, I think you could make it into a pretty dark metaphor for how the methods cops use to "protect" us only make things worse for everyone.
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Jul 27, 2019 02:52
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TheNamedSavior posted:I find it ironic that I like the game where you play as cops (werewolf the forsaken) more than the game where you play as environmentalists (werewolf the apocalypse). Forsaken aren't "cops" so much as "furry antifa who are indebted to the spiritual presence of Marilyn Monroe, who is also the moon, for their ancestor's role in the murder of Wolf God JFK."
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Jul 27, 2019 03:01
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"Cops" is an easy metaphor to use for the Forsaken, but there's an extremely salient difference: there is no werewolf state whose oppression of some underclass the Forsaken enable. That's why an nWoD werewolf pack is more like a people's militia, or, obviously, a gang.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:06
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I Am Just a Box posted:Demons being an exception for kinship doesn't bother me so much, because mechanically it makes sense that the spy guys who can't even identify each other reliably would be an exception for the Poochie Finds His Friends powerset. None of the in-setting justifications for why this exception exists make any sense, and the execution of this exception is nonsense, involves a ton of rolloffs instead of just simple immunity, and one of its default results is that Poochie automatically gets blackmailed by the demon, without the demon's participation or consent. What got me about the Beast/Demon thing was how petty the Beasts were towards Demons in a "oh look you're hiding your true face I WILL RIP THE MASK OFF see if i don't.'
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Jul 27, 2019 03:13
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TheNamedSavior posted:I find it ironic that I like the game where you play as cops (werewolf the forsaken) more than the game where you play as environmentalists (werewolf the apocalypse). A friend of mine pointed out that Reckoning has a fashy feel to him, but I haven't dug into the game enough to really get a proper feel for it beyond the opening fiction stuff. oWoD had wonky politics? In the 90's?! Perish the thought.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:16
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Reckoning is less fashy, and more... The thing that hunters do, and mostly really hate doing, is the kind of thing that real-life fashy types get political boners at the thought of doing, like murdering your neighbors for being the wrong kind of person. But Imbued don't really have a political slant so you couldn't exactly call them fascist. They don't form a bloc.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:18
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Ferrinus posted:"Cops" is an easy metaphor to use for the Forsaken, but there's an extremely salient difference: there is no werewolf state whose oppression of some underclass the Forsaken enable. That's why an nWoD werewolf pack is more like a people's militia, or, obviously, a gang. I’m no Forsaken expert, but aren’t the wolf blooded exactly that?
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Jul 27, 2019 03:20
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Rand Brittain posted:Reckoning is less fashy, and more... Like I said, haven't read enough of the game to have much opinion about it other than the art work is way more action focused vs what the text is expressing.
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Jul 27, 2019 03:26
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tokenbrownguy posted:I’m no Forsaken expert, but aren’t the wolf blooded exactly that? There was some of that in 1e, though mostly from the Pure. In 2e they're more on even ground, considered family, and abusing them is more looked down upon across the board (even by the Pure). Regarding the Cops comparison, it's easy since you can still be a 'good' Forsaken pack and be a ring of criminals or rock band or bunch of jumped up gearheads. Gotta love the Thousand Steel Teeth. "When the phases of the moon and the stock market prices of the big car manufacturers align, it is time for the sacred Hecatomb. In these wild celebrations, one hundred cars must burn in a grand sacrifice to the Smoke Drinker — a night of thievery and high-speed chases as the Steel Teeth compete for the finest rides they can steal."
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Jul 27, 2019 03:50
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Rand Brittain posted:Reckoning is less fashy, and more... The gameline explroed (or tried to explore) the various political ideologies of hunters. There were fashy ones, lefty ones, etc. Alla rguing on hunter.net
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Jul 27, 2019 03:53
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tokenbrownguy posted:I’m no Forsaken expert, but aren’t the wolf blooded exactly that? I mean a "state" as in a political formation possessed of a bureaucracy, army, police force, prison system, etc. that serves as a machine for one socioeconomic class to subjugate another. There are definitely some werewolves who treat wolf-blooded, specifically, as second-class citizens/breeding stock, but that's orthogonal to the general conception of a Forsaken pack as "spirit cops" and more politically akin to, I don't know, the kind of patriarchal micromanagement of (especially female) children you might get from the rear end in a top hat patriarch of a deeply conservative family.
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Jul 27, 2019 04:40
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The Imbued by nature aren't particularly fashy, but they are figures of righteous violence, which will always appeal to the fash. Without that, they're a bunch of loners selected without regard to ethnicity, gender, politics, or party membership, so as Fash Supermen they're pretty much a bust - when you can have an 85-year old Afro-Caribbean grandmother be the one swinging a skillet so hard it catches on fire and explodes on impact, a Jewish accountant discover he can set the air on fire, and a little girl can summon a literal tornado whenever she sees a Bad Man while the skinhead's only powers are to try and talk things out and help ease someone's inner turmoil, any hope of a self-selecting hierarchy that combines the monopolization of violence with select national or political characteristics is inherently hosed. In a sense, the Imbued's righteous violence is democratized - any man, woman or child has the potential to wield it, to whatever end they wish, if they're in the right place at the right time to be Imbued and don't shirk the call of duty.
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Jul 27, 2019 05:28
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one big improvement of vampire the requiem is they got rid of all that really lame Cain stuff. Maybe it was cool and revolutionary in the 90s, but its wildly cliche now to have the First Vampire be cain or judas or someone. it's also kind of lame to have it be basically 'yep christianity is the True Religion in this setting'
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Jul 27, 2019 09:12
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the first vampire is clearly kars
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Jul 27, 2019 09:18
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juggalo baby coffin posted:one big improvement of vampire the requiem is they got rid of all that really lame Cain stuff. Maybe it was cool and revolutionary in the 90s, but its wildly cliche now to have the First Vampire be cain or judas or someone. Christianity is wrong, Judaism in general had a lot of bits right while still being largely incorrect. Christianity, insomuch as we get a calling, is explicitly the work of Lucifer. It's also implied the same is true of Islam.
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Jul 27, 2019 09:28
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Mulva posted:Christianity is wrong, Judaism in general had a lot of bits right while still being largely incorrect. Christianity, insomuch as we get a calling, is explicitly the work of Lucifer. It's also implied the same is true of Islam. i mean more in the outside of the game sense. the fact that there's god, caine and abel, etc means that the broad strokes of christian myth are correct in the WoD.
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Jul 27, 2019 09:42
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i mean more in the outside of the game sense. the fact that there's god, caine and abel, etc means that the broad strokes of christian myth are correct in the WoD. It's really Demon that gets very 'yes, Judaism had it pretty much right - sort of' rather than Vampire, but there's also a question. Why precisely shouldn't there be truth to Christianity, Hinduism, etc in a game line, if handled with care (which, admittedly, is definitely not the case with the oWoD)?
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Jul 27, 2019 09:47
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Tollymain posted:the first vampire is clearly kars 
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Jul 27, 2019 10:17
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Loomer posted:It's really Demon that gets very 'yes, Judaism had it pretty much right - sort of' rather than Vampire, but there's also a question. Why precisely shouldn't there be truth to Christianity, Hinduism, etc in a game line, if handled with care (which, admittedly, is definitely not the case with the oWoD)? well in this case purely because it's a game about vampires, who are folklore creatures who originate from all over the world and exist in all sorts of religious canons. it's just corny and cliche too. Makes them as monsters less interesting if their root cause is just 'oh, god did it'. Religion should respond to their existence, it shouldn't be their origin point. although making a game that takes place in like, a world that operates on the natural laws established in the jewish kabbalah or christian esoteric theology would be pretty cool. All religions have their cosmology and theories about elements and whatnot, and any of them would make cool games if you did it right. I just don't think emo vampires is the right venue.
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Jul 27, 2019 11:25
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I mean their root cause isn't "God did it". Best guess [Because it's all vague that far back] is that Caine messed around with Lilith and become some sort of blood based monstrosity. The curses laid on him [Weaknesses to fire, sunlight, and having a Beast] may or may not have jump-started whatever he did with Lilith to make him a 'vampire', or it might have been that blood sorcery alone. At the end of the day though God didn't make Caine a vampire [If he is one. A reminder that so far as we know Caine never actually died, like all vampires that would follow did in their transition.]. Caine did. Much like God didn't create all the vampires that followed. Caine did. So there is the aspect of the Biblical to it all, but it's also irrelevant at the end of the day. Why are you a vampire? Because someone made you one. Maybe you had a say in that. Probably you didn't. What are you going to do now? Probably you'll be a monster. Nothing says you have to be though. Whatever happens, wherever you end up? It's not on God. The Devil didn't make you do it. You did it to yourself.
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Jul 27, 2019 11:45
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juggalo baby coffin posted:well in this case purely because it's a game about vampires, who are folklore creatures who originate from all over the world and exist in all sorts of religious canons. it's just corny and cliche too. Makes them as monsters less interesting if their root cause is just 'oh, god did it'. Religion should respond to their existence, it shouldn't be their origin point. Fair enough!
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Jul 27, 2019 13:10
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Mulva posted:I mean their root cause isn't "God did it". Best guess [Because it's all vague that far back] is that Caine messed around with Lilith and become some sort of blood based monstrosity. The curses laid on him [Weaknesses to fire, sunlight, and having a Beast] may or may not have jump-started whatever he did with Lilith to make him a 'vampire', or it might have been that blood sorcery alone. At the end of the day though God didn't make Caine a vampire [If he is one. A reminder that so far as we know Caine never actually died, like all vampires that would follow did in their transition.]. Caine did. Much like God didn't create all the vampires that followed. Caine did. in VTM, at least from everything i've read, it's god who curses caine with vampirism, the stuff he does with Lilith is what creates the disciplines/blood magic. plus the fact that caine is the son of adam and eve also roots the whole thing in biblical myth. but i think overall it just comes off as corny to tie it all down to one origin, especially one origin that's based in existing myth. I'd think it was corny if Zeus did it, but at least that would be slightly more original. There's a weird compulsion with vampire fiction to tie the origin point of vampires down to something biblical. they even did it in The Strain, which started out as a kind of biological vampire apocalypse. People come up with these fascinating variations on the vampire myth, then when pushed for an origin they basically shrug and say 'a wizard did it'.
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Jul 27, 2019 13:19
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Hunter also had a specific type of broken imbued, the Wayward, who took to violence and absolutism for its own sake after signals get crossed in imbuing. They were bad guys, but (of course) they got a Black Dog book. They probably map closest to today's fash, and they're really not lauded by the text.
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Jul 27, 2019 14:43
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