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Is there a decent lore overview somewhere? I'm about finished with my first ES2 game and I've been enjoying it, especially the lore text, but I also feel kinda lost on the lore. Like it seems to assume I have a familiarity with a lot of things new to me.
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Jul 18, 2019 22:38
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I didn't realize until now that hitting spacebar on the ES2 main menu brings up a neat little scan view for whichever faction is there on the screen.
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Jul 22, 2019 04:59
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Skellyscribe posted:I didn't realize until now that hitting spacebar on the ES2 main menu brings up a neat little scan view for whichever faction is there on the screen. I just fired up steam to check that, that is so loving Gnarly what the christ! By the way, does anyone else get a huge clutter of a mess when watching ship battles in 'overview' mode? It looks like its trying to draw some sort of firing arcs or whatnot, but is glitching hard and it's just a scribble of lines flickering about. Can't seem to find similar reports?
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Jul 22, 2019 05:05
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Are there any good intermediate to advanced guides for EL out there? I understand how all the systems work, but I struggle to put them all together into a cohesive strategy. I want to know things like when I should expand, or what techs/buildings/units are worth prioritizing, and stuff like that, but every time I try looking for a guide it's all beginners poo poo like "here's what the empire screen looks like, here's what all the buttons do".
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Jul 25, 2019 19:17
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Fister Roboto posted:Are there any good intermediate to advanced guides for EL out there? I understand how all the systems work, but I struggle to put them all together into a cohesive strategy. I want to know things like when I should expand, or what techs/buildings/units are worth prioritizing, and stuff like that, but every time I try looking for a guide it's all beginners poo poo like "here's what the empire screen looks like, here's what all the buttons do". Same 4X Alchemist put out some Optimal First 30 Turns videos but gently caress if I don't fall asleep.
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Jul 25, 2019 20:21
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Unfortunately, much of the playerbase's knowledge is spread across the threads of the Amplitude forums (maybe half of it in balance arguments) rather than collected in any one place. The multiplayer community know their stuff and write guides, but they're of course focused on fast speed multiplayer, so only some of it applies. Still, Jojo_Fr's guide on Steam (Advanced mechanics and Competitive Multiplayer) will give you some things to think about.
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Jul 25, 2019 20:33
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Why are people making video guides for turn based games? That's utterly baffling. A PowerPoint is better for these purposes.
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Jul 25, 2019 20:34
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The Endless series might not be the best 4x series -their AI is typically pretty bad and some of their mechanics are more annoying than meaningful- but when it comes to the design and aesthetics, there's really nothing comparable. Their UI's are clean and functional, the graphics and lore are surprisingly good for a 4x and all of their soundtracks are probably the single best video game soundtracks out there.
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Jul 25, 2019 20:40
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Speedball posted:There should be a few effortposts in this very thread linked in the OP but the basics are: I made this effortpost a while back about most of the basics, but what your GRAND strategy is will depend upon two things: what faction are you playing as, and what victory are you going to pursue. Since all the major factions have pretty different gameplay styles you are going to need to tailor your approach. For example, Forgotten can't research the normal way at all so they need a strong Dust economy to buy science. As the game wears on you are going to get a more and more clear idea of how you intend to win the game and the technologies get more and more specific as you go. The end-tier "Endless" technologies are usually what clinches it, for example, the military one doubles the attack of all your units unilaterally.
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Jul 25, 2019 21:17
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Tulip posted:Why are people making video guides for turn based games? That's utterly baffling. A PowerPoint is better for these purposes. Can't get likes and subscribes for those.
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Jul 25, 2019 21:50
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Tulip posted:Why are people making video guides for turn based games? That's utterly baffling. A PowerPoint is better for these purposes. Why are people doing a thing to get paid when they could do it and get nothing
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Jul 25, 2019 23:43
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Video guides are fine as long as they're well edited, but 99% of the time they're just some boring rear end in a top hat mumbling while playing. They don't use a script so they just say whatever comes to mind, making it completely incoherent.
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Jul 25, 2019 23:53
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Why are people doing a thing to get paid when they could do it and get nothing I am highly dubious that there's big bucks in Endless Space tutorials . Fister Roboto posted:Can't get likes and subscribes for those. yeah yeah, just bad educational materials are annoying to me at a core level
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Jul 26, 2019 00:45
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Amplitude’s official documentation is woeful. That’s the main issue
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Jul 26, 2019 00:57
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Speedball posted:As the game wears on you are going to get a more and more clear idea of how you intend to win the game and the technologies get more and more specific as you go. The end-tier "Endless" technologies are usually what clinches it, for example, the military one doubles the attack of all your units unilaterally. I've not really played EL on endless; I stop after a few notches up above normal as the production bonus's get out of hand. Does anyone ever actually research Era 6 stuff? The game's usually long over by then. I've also gotten back into ES2 again, after an absence after release. After playing a lot of other titles and coming back to do ES2 on Endless I've basically come to the conclusion that: oscarthewilde posted:The Endless series might not be the best 4x series -their AI is typically pretty bad and some of their mechanics are more annoying than meaningful- but when it comes to the design and aesthetics, there's really nothing comparable. Their UI's are clean and functional, the graphics and lore are surprisingly good for a 4x and all of their soundtracks are probably the single best video game soundtracks out there.
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Jul 26, 2019 03:59
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Civilization 4 remains excellent if you want a 4x which actually functions mechanically.
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Jul 26, 2019 04:01
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oscarthewilde posted:The Endless series might not be the best 4x series -their AI is typically pretty bad and some of their mechanics are more annoying than meaningful- but when it comes to the design and aesthetics, there's really nothing comparable. Their UI's are clean and functional, the graphics and lore are surprisingly good for a 4x and all of their soundtracks are probably the single best video game soundtracks out there. There's also a problem with EL that it becomes sorta too bloated. I think it was fine rigth up to Morgwar, but this navy stuff added a huge layer to a game that, depending on a map, might be totally missing. But if it is there it's a pile of new mechanics - naval exploration (which works very differently from land one cause you can actually enter the tile you're exploring), naval bases that allow Cultists to expand somewhat, naval quests, navies themselves. I think Inferno additions were much better because this eclipse thing happens rarely yet subtly affects all of your playthrough (for example your garrisons become more valuable cause from time to time they can come out and re-explore temples). Mykara is back at bloating the game with those Ukans which are giants but not giants and they also have their own tech tree, kinda. Not to mention it all makes the tech tree even wider and I'm not sure whether it's still as balanced as it was once. And the map in EL is horrible to interact with, cluttering it with new stuff only makes it harder. Sadly, I have the same experience as @Serephina with many of those games. In EL you're at least in danger but still, the painfully obvious strategy is to ally someone ASAP and then no one will attack you because no other powerful block will ever form. In ES2 power blocks do form but even if AI gets magical powerful military it doesn't do anything. Those games are still good: I'm glad that they exist and it's fair to pay full price for a game you figure out in 60 hours or so. None of those 60 hours were boring, all of it was pleasant and immersive. I've played >600 hours in Europa Universalis and that meant dozens of hours when I was bored and just waited for something to happen; putting up with tax-paying app UI; getting my immersion from a limited number of music tracks and black and white cheap event pictures.
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Jul 26, 2019 08:26
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Amethyst posted:Amplitude’s official documentation is woeful. That’s the main issue
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Jul 26, 2019 13:36
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ilitarist posted:There's also a problem with EL that it becomes sorta too bloated. yeah this is a problem with how they make expansions. It's sharper in EL than ES2 (the most "bloaty" ES2 expansion is the Hissho one, which is generally 1) not that bad and 2) worth it), but they're only slowly learning how to manage it. In EL I won't even play with all the expansions - Shadows and Tempest in particular feel bad to play compared to simply not having them.
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Jul 26, 2019 15:54
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Serephina posted:Does anyone ever actually research Era 6 stuff? The game's usually long over by then. If you're going for a non-military win like an economy victory then it may become necessary to clinch it. Military victories are usually the fastest and "punchiest" of the ways to win but for example if you're going for a diplomacy win then that tech that doubles peace points starts to look very attractive.
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Jul 26, 2019 18:32
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:This is what is key to me. The tutorial was dreadfully bad and taught me next to nothing about how to actually play the game and succeed. It helps you do a few guided turns and teaches you how to do basic combat but otherwise is completely lacking. I think they underestimate just how important an in-game encyclopedia is to a 4x. Failing that, at least have a good online wiki, maintained by staff. Relying on the community to document fundamental mechanics is just lazy. As it is, figuring out how poo poo like umbral chior sanctuaries work is a chore.
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Jul 29, 2019 06:22
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Yea, civ5's civopedia is outstanding and it goes a very long way to show it's polished and professional product. I have no goddamn idea why the most recent crop of 4x games decided that "documentation, a manual, hell anything" was optional.
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Jul 29, 2019 06:34
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Because there was a change in game design philosophy. Civ5 started it in some ways, maybe they've had a good look at what Paradox was doing at the time. First, since GalCiv2 people have mastered the art of making complex tooltips, some of them multi-level (it happened in Rise of Nations, probably earlier). Second, more importantly, every strategy game under the Earth makes sure you don't miss anything. If there is a button you can press to make it all better then the game will make sure you know it. In Civ4 there's a small button for rush production in the corner of a city screen, in later Civs buyout button stands proudly so that everyone can see it. If anything important happens in the world you get an event icon about it. There's a handy overlay that shows you everything you need to see (unless you're Endless Legend for some reason). In some ways it sort of adds discipline to developers. I adore Field of Glory Empires, recent 4X from AGEOD, but you can clearly see that those devs are used to players who read manuals. They've tried to make helpful tooltips but still some parts of the game are arcane and can't be decyphered without a manual or FAQ. Like, say, winning conditions. And the game itself isn't that complex, so it's not like it's a trade between a complex game you have to research before you play and simple experience you can plug and play.
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Jul 29, 2019 08:35
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Exactly, yes. Tooltips are great and good at what they do, but in literally every 'grand strategy game I've played in the past decade has had some mechanics that are seemingly obtuse, and having a paragraph or two going over the system explains it all. Which is great when said paragraph is provided ingame, unfortunate when you have to look poo poo up on a wiki, and absolutely tragic when you're trawling through outdated reddit posts. For ES2, the first question everyone asks is 'Manpower?', and much later on 'No seriously, how the gently caress do these dozens of space combat mechanics work, they're only hinted at ingame? What do you mean there are firing arcs?!'
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Jul 29, 2019 14:04
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Wait what. ES2 has firing arcs? There is basically no control over where your ships go! That doesn't add anything to the game and only adds frustration. It worked in MOO and SotS because it's possible to move your ships around directly
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Jul 29, 2019 14:21
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The complexity of some mechanics is ingeniously compensated by the fact that you can beat AI on Endless without understanding what happens in combat. And I honestly think they did a good job simplifying the system compared to ES1 which seemed to be a copy of GalCiv2. In ES2 I at least look at those energy/kinetic attack/defense graphs and they seem to affect stuff. And I don't know what's worse - the fact that I have no idea what happens in combat when I try to watch it, or the fact that I have no need at all to understand anything there. Amplitude probably has the best UI out there. It's much more baffling when Civ6 - which is supposed to be 4X for people who don't play 4X - does similar things much worse. Even experienced players seem to be missing the fact that combat power numbers do nothing by themselves, only the difference is important in combat and so +5 CP bonus is as good when applied to a slinger as to a giant death robot. Or last time I've checked Civiliopedia didn't had entries about terrain type so I had no way of knowing if there's some district I should build in a specific place - plenty of extremely important things like that you have to memorize eventually. The smartest person in the world will still have bad city/district placement in their first few games.
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Jul 29, 2019 14:23
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obscure, overcomplicated combat mechanics you can only indirectly control is a genre staple at this point. In CK2 you can affect the tactics your commanders choose based on the commanders' ethnicity in addition to the troop composition. Last I saw the spreadsheet was multiple pages long and even then incomprehensible. I'm still totally at a loss for when squadrons are a good idea, though I think I have a handle on when to use boarding pods (not often as it's unlikely the enemy ships will gel well with your fleets).
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Jul 29, 2019 14:57
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Tulip posted:obscure, overcomplicated combat mechanics you can only indirectly control is a genre staple at this point. In CK2 you can affect the tactics your commanders choose based on the commanders' ethnicity in addition to the troop composition. My position on CK2 is that Paradox should stop pretending there's something clever happening there and should expose AI priorities, stat effects, and those tactics too. There are plenty extremely unobvious points with those mechanics (like councilor stat giving diminishing returns after 15, doctor relationship from -1 to +1 being equivalemt to him getting 5 learning, zealous ruler actively using his right to get land from infidel vassals etc) that you might not realize after hundreds of hours because they change often and there's so much stuff happening at the same time it's impossible to notice any reason behind it. No wonder some fans cry for tactical battles in those games even though it's easy to see how insane that idea is.
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Jul 29, 2019 15:09
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ilitarist posted:My position on CK2 is that Paradox should stop pretending there's something clever happening there and should expose AI priorities, stat effects, and those tactics too. There are plenty extremely unobvious points with those mechanics (like councilor stat giving diminishing returns after 15, doctor relationship from -1 to +1 being equivalemt to him getting 5 learning, zealous ruler actively using his right to get land from infidel vassals etc) that you might not realize after hundreds of hours because they change often and there's so much stuff happening at the same time it's impossible to notice any reason behind it. CK2 is illustrative, since battle results are far more determined by which side has the most men than by anything else. Wars are won far more by vassal relations and timing to weak rulers than by the tactical system. ES2 warfare is largely an outcome from empire management. The closest war I got into with a player recently came down to "I can outproduce total ships but had unsustainable consumption of strategics, while they had far more adamantium and antimatter production" and ultimately I lost. Most wars are mashing one person's industrial production against the other's. If the two are pretty close then mastery of the tactical system can be the deciding factor but who wants to fight a fair war? The biggest disruption to this is hacking, since if you do the one that screws up ground defenses (preventing "conscript") you can capture systems far more efficiently than typical and that has turned wars in the mid game pretty well.
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Jul 29, 2019 15:51
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Yeah I'm done with ES2 pretty much forever because I can beat the game just spamming pretty much any ship put together with some sense and win. I had a rough start on ES2 because of the lack of info about certain things in the game, but once I figured out the core I went up a difficulty level each game until I beat it after much annoying frustrating grindy bullshit on Endless. At that point I see no reason to even install it again. Stellaris is a complicated buggy mess and the combat could use a re-work, but at least I can make interesting decisions in it. Such as going with all armor-and-shield bypassing weapons, swarm tactics with small ships or brute strength fleet compositions with bigger ships, Fighters and missiles, laser (anti-armor) and kinetic (anti-shield) mixed armaments, or some sort of mix in between. I can pick different combat computers for my ships, different Fleet Doctrines that affect a few aspects of combat performance, and defensive systems based on the star type. Its a flawed game with a suboptimal combat system but at least I feel like I interact with it rather than throw random ships together, pick tactics at random, and still win 85% of the time.
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Jul 29, 2019 15:57
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@Tulip, yes, again this in-combat complexity is hard to distinguish from a random noise - the combat is affected tech, military stats of 6 participating generals, their personal stats like craven, their combat traits like aggressive leader, random events like duels, semi-randomly chosen tactics, army composition, terrain, a combination of special troops with terrain with special traits, temporary modifiers... So in the end you make sure to attack with bigger numbers and if there's bad terrain or a lot of tech then you need even more numbers - great, now you know enough about combat to play on the highest level. @AAAAA! Real Muenster, I feel your pain. There are other space strategy games though! I haven't touched Galactic Civilization 3 for a while and it looks rather sterile, but it looks like a real strategy game about strategizing in the vein of Civ4: it's certainly not just about learning each faction's trick like ES2 nor it's about stories like Stellaris. There's also Stars in Shadows which is Master of Orion 2 but... Well... The art style is different. And humans are not vanilla race.
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Jul 29, 2019 16:26
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Let's all take a moment to mourn Sword of the Stars 2.
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Jul 29, 2019 17:51
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Rhjamiz posted:Let's all take a moment to mourn Sword of the Stars 2. We don't talk about that here. This is a safe space.
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Jul 29, 2019 17:55
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Too late. I'm triggered. I bought the pre order and tried to like it so much and loved the original but all we got was that buggy mess and and and 
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Jul 29, 2019 19:02
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Let's take a moment to remember that in SotS2, asteroids could abduct fleet admirals.
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Jul 29, 2019 23:42
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Falcorum posted:Let's take a moment to remember that in SotS2, asteroids could abduct fleet admirals. Also the repeated, numerous ways in which things could spawn in the middle of things they were orbiting. The steam page for update history has "CTD" 39 times and "crash" 18 times.
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Jul 29, 2019 23:53
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There are firing arcs in ES2??
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Jul 30, 2019 00:13
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The Master of Orion remake/reboot/whatever has okay tactical combat. I wish the rest of the game wasn't so bland. A number of 4x games have done decent tactical combat over the years so I think it's worth future 4x games to keep trying. If they took ES2 and combined it with Star Hammer: Vanguard Prophecy's combat you'd end up with something a bit more interesting without being a huge derail. It does simultaneous turns with periodic pauses where you can tweak orders. It'd be basically like what we have now but you'd be able to edit those movement lines and at least combat wouldn't be a cutscene.
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Jul 30, 2019 09:02
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The very idea of tactical combat in an empire building game is problematic. First, from a thematic point of view, I'm a galactic emperor. It's immersion-breaking that I have to personally tell my ship to concentrate fire on that guy over there. Second, you're making two games instead of two and have to make the player learn a very different set of rules. Third, there's an issue of balance between those two games in how much attention they demand. In a game like Heroes or recent Total War Three Kingdoms, you mostly win on a strategic map but some clever tactics can affect your losses in combat, you also need your wits and luck if the forces are even. You can win those games without ever participating in tactical combat. In a game like XCOM you spend most of your time in combat and you can win those games by being a great tactician even if you're bad at the strategic level. Obviously empire-building games should be more about strategic level, but then why have tactical combat at all? If you play your cards right you'll only have battles with pre-determined results, and it feels strange to have a whole separate game just for edge cases. Fourth, probably the biggest issue is the gameplay balance. Master of Orion 2 is fondly remembered but it was not a very good strategy game due to a screwed-up tactical level. There are well-known exploits. Those mean that even if strategic AI has right bonuses and is interesting to fight against it doesn't matter cause you'll have better results in tactical combat - which is a zero sum transparent game so usually you can't affect its difficulties without it looking cheap. It also means that some strategic decisions, like researching exploitable components, are more potent than others if you have a meta-knowledge. It also means that your performance depends on your patience more than on your good decisions - if you can get better results by doing quick combat manually then it means that skipping it harms you, and in very few of those games devs want you to play every battle by yourself. So I'm of a belief that tactical combat should only be there to show the consequences of your strategic choices. Should also maybe give you some limited choices: you can concentrate on your troops running away, or you want to get rid of specific enemy units so that reinforcements have a better chance to deal with enemies. But if your choices in combat may turn crushing defeat into victory then it negatively affects the gameplay. I think Endless Legend did well with its very soft orders.
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Jul 30, 2019 10:06
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ilitarist posted:The very idea of tactical combat in an empire building game is problematic. Any self-respecting evil space tyrant certainly would micromanage. What’s the point of galactic conquest if you aren’t personally on the scene to gloat?
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Jul 30, 2019 10:47
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