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Goa Tse-tung posted:your spamming is annoying Ah such a meaningful addition to why V5 is better than v20 and requiem
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Aug 1, 2019 15:01
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juggalo baby coffin posted:i updated the Odsečen post, they seem pretty mechanically complex so i would appreciate some help from Game Geniuses in adding some crunch. I envision it as basically combining the vampire and their ghoul into one character, who has some of the strengths and some of the weaknesses of both. maintaining the host body would be an expense, but would allow you to operate in daylight. Combat in daylight could be a bad idea though, a hole in the ghouls ribcage and suddenly lil mr vampire is facing the sun. quoting myself for the new page because i didnt think this would be the last post of the previous page.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:02
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In conclusion V5 is good and maybe predator types require some ST balancing to be perfect for goons who never actually play any of these games
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Aug 1, 2019 15:03
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Cant believe the system is unsound because a guy who said he likes V5 hyper focused on one aspect that needs possible balancing
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Aug 1, 2019 15:04
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until someone does a proper F&F of V5 i decline to hold any opinion towards it. bring back hunter.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:08
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Oberst posted:Ah such a meaningful addition to why V5 is better than v20 and requiem V5 is not better than Requiem. You really need to calm down, though; my criticism of V5’s polish does not really warrant the kind of histrionics you and your friends are going through here.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:11
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Vampire's developers have always hissed and backed away from discussions of balance like somebody threw open the curtains and brandished a crucifix. Why should the fanbase be any different?
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Aug 1, 2019 15:13
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moths posted:it's an indicator that other corners were cut, mistakes were made, and that the designers didn't really know what they were doing.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:14
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Ferrinus posted:V5 is not better than Requiem. You really need to calm down, though; my criticism of V5’s polish does not really warrant the kind of histrionics you and your friends are going through here. Don't you ever call me a friend of oberst
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Aug 1, 2019 15:16
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Shrecknet posted:More importantly, people have known about the importance of bullet-shaped chargen in WW games for decades, so when your fifth bite at the apple using your flagship property still gets it wrong, it's a massive red flag that nothing is changed or better. for some reason i think i trust this poster about vampire stuff
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Aug 1, 2019 15:18
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Shrecknet posted:More importantly, people have known about the importance of bullet-shaped chargen in WW games for decades, so when your fifth bite at the apple using your flagship property still gets it wrong, it's a massive red flag that nothing is changed or better. Or, at risk of being lumped in with the spam brigade, they don’t consider it a problem and think the benefit of keeping it light and streamlined better than making it crunchy and more convoluted It really feels like a mountain being made out of a molehill but if it’s been a problem for decades I can see why people get peeved by it. The possibility of being XP inefficient compared to a fellow player isn’t going to keep me up at night imo.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:20
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to me the real problem with v5 is bringing back the outrageously stupid vtm lore, every non-nosferatu part of the owod is dumb as hell and belongs in the 90s.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:22
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Halloween Jack posted:Vampire's developers have always hissed and backed away from discussions of balance like somebody threw open the curtains and brandished a crucifix. Why should the fanbase be any different? That's unfair. Swede Drac and pals had a lot to do in the V5 playtest, balancing feedback on the gay spartan cosplayer rules, pedophile PC rules, and defining maladjusted immigrants rejected by society. You can't expect them to catch everything.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:23
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GNU Order posted:Or, at risk of being lumped in with the spam brigade, they don’t consider it a problem and think the benefit of keeping it light and streamlined better than making it crunchy and more convoluted Remember, though: the V5 devs DID do a lot of work to solve this problem with attribute and skill dots. They just... got tired, or lazy, or something, and simply couldn’t stick the landing. The fact that no one apparently knows how the Celerity 5 instapunch works, and the playerbase had to shake down the devs for clarification on the (otherwise pretty cool) combat rules because at least one of the examples in the core was flatly wrong, does not fill me with confidence.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:26
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I want to clarify: wrestling a tree is something you don't do when you're right. It's something you can do but it's an exercise in futility because like what are you going to do when you're done? You sure showed that tree. To flip it around a bit: V5 has some interesting ideas but was made under the direction of a man whose leadership led to there being an international incident over content choices two books into the line. The foundation laid is not one that is sound, and most of us would prefer not to live in a groverhaus of RPGs. Loresheets are cool, more games need them. Requiem is really a different and overall kind of noncomparable game in my opinion and experience. It's about vampires and it uses a variant on the storyteller system, but its current edition especially is the result of decades of refinement and shoring up the foundation, and empowers the execution of the characters and stories it is designed to tell, without metaplot. You're allowed to like metaplot but...metaplot burns poo poo when someone in charge decides that the faction you like to play as doesn't exist anymore, or that the entire clan you wanted to use got wiped out, or any of those things. Yeah. You can absolutely ignore that for your home game, but you're also absolutely not getting new material to support the use of these options while everyone who's not trampled on by the metaplot continues to see new material developed for them, and frankly there were reasons the industry shifted away from metaplot after the 90s. It's okay to enjoy whatever game you enjoy, but it's not okay to come into a conversation and make declarations that the game you enjoy is objectively better than other games. That's called being a dick about it. Don't argue with Ferrinus. Not because Ferrinus is a tree, though that's part of it. Don't argue with Ferrinus because Ferrinus is generally correct and has always put more thought into it than you have.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:29
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Soonmot posted:Gatornado! I saw Crawl last week, a fun and extremely tight little movie that is no joke about a gatorcane.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:52
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juggalo baby coffin posted:to me the real problem with v5 is bringing back the outrageously stupid vtm lore, every non-nosferatu part of the owod is dumb as hell and belongs in the 90s. Ferrinus posted:The fact that no one apparently knows how the Celerity 5 instapunch works, and the playerbase had to shake down the devs for clarification on the (otherwise pretty cool) combat rules because at least one of the examples in the core was flatly wrong, does not fill me with confidence.
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Aug 1, 2019 15:53
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juggalo baby coffin posted:quoting myself for the new page because i didnt think this would be the last post of the previous page. So like, their weakness would be the Ventrue one, plus I dunno, maybe some situational penalty to fine motor control or perception within X amount of time of waking up / assuming a new host, because the connections aren't warmed up properly yet with their vitae? The blanket STR/DEX penalty feels insanely bad unless I'm misreading it. And then you could have like: Parasitism 1 - Count your Blood Potency as (Parasitism) lower and your Humanity as (Parasitism) higher for purposes of sunlight damage and frequency. Parasitism 2 - Ignore (Parasitism) worth of wound penalties from bashing damage passively, from lethal damage by spending vitae for the scene, by just shutting out that nervous system stimuli Parasitism 3 - The bodyswap, etc. That way, one dot in the bloodline discipline already takes a starting character's Blood Potency to 0, which takes the frequency of sunlight damage dealt to "nope" while preserving the flavor of lil bone snek piloting corpse mech into the light. And if they're keeping up on their bloodline discipline as their BP increases, they can effectively always be walking out into the sun. Maybe make it cost blood per turn/scene just to keep them from being the full solution to the daystar though, or make it a "half Parasitism, rounded up" subtraction to BP. Something. Chernobyl Peace Prize fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 15:57
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The thing that gets me about V5's character building issues is that 'flat but high costs for Discipline dots' seems like not only an easy fix, but much easier bookkeeping. Chronicles games do that (or at least all the ones I've played do) and it's far simpler than costs which scale with purchase. Having multiple non-equivalent routes to the same set of character sheet elements is just sloppy, and is one of the things fans of Ex3 were most exhausted by when the Original, Bad Devs (tm) kept them in. It's possible to like a game and also recognize that it has meaningful flaws that need to be fixed by the developers or by house rules. It is also kinda weird how a flurry of posters all declaring 'V5 is amazing, no I will not be discussing this further' showed up at once. Oberst's multiposts and insistence that nobody who disagrees plays the games are uniquely obnoxious, though. Just edit your post if you need to add more, please!
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Aug 1, 2019 16:12
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Joe Slowboat posted:It is also kinda weird how a flurry of posters all declaring 'V5 is amazing, no I will not be discussing this further' showed up at once. 
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Aug 1, 2019 16:17
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Joe Slowboat posted:It is also kinda weird how a flurry of posters all declaring 'V5 is amazing, no I will not be discussing this further' showed up at once. Oberst's multiposts and insistence that nobody who disagrees plays the games are uniquely obnoxious, though. Just edit your post if you need to add more, please! For the record I enjoy V5, and discussed it further. The XP differentials from Predator type does suck, but having a potentially single roll resolve "I want to feed before heading out" does a lot to streamline play IME.
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Aug 1, 2019 16:20
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Joe Slowboat posted:The thing that gets me about V5's character building issues is that 'flat but high costs for Discipline dots' seems like not only an easy fix, but much easier bookkeeping. Chronicles games do that (or at least all the ones I've played do) and it's far simpler than costs which scale with purchase.  Sorry for not citing the 25 year publishing history of White Wolf games when making a statement like “one dot on character creation placed sub-optimally is not a system-breaking mechanic” I’ll go back to lurking so you guys can gatekeep the thread back into talking about OWOD mage lore from the 90’s
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Aug 1, 2019 16:29
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I really wish we had an nwod BJ Zanzibar's World of Darkness. There's a mirror of the old one here but, more. Give me more.
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Aug 1, 2019 16:30
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A Renaissance Nerd posted:For the record I enjoy V5, and discussed it further. The XP differentials from Predator type does suck, but having a potentially single roll resolve "I want to feed before heading out" does a lot to streamline play IME. Yeah I've appreciated your posts, and I think streamlining feeding is a valid move. Personally I like to keep the mundane elements of Chronicles monster gameplay visible at least at first; my Mage group took a little while to acclimatize and figure out how best to use ongoing spells and rites to erase mundane issues, and it was a good early plot that's faded into the background as the players and characters have adjusted. I've seen people post about how in Requiem you start off narrating feeding but relatively quickly it becomes a quick check like you describe, as the vampire becomes blasé about devouring human life. But that's not a disagreement, I just think it's an interesting design space.
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Aug 1, 2019 16:31
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GNU Order posted:
Boom headshot
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Aug 1, 2019 17:04
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Joe Slowboat posted:The thing that gets me about V5's character building issues is that 'flat but high costs for Discipline dots' seems like not only an easy fix, but much easier bookkeeping. Chronicles games do that (or at least all the ones I've played do) and it's far simpler than costs which scale with purchase. Invitations to my v5 Chronicle are still open
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Aug 1, 2019 17:06
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juggalo baby coffin posted:quoting myself for the new page because i didnt think this would be the last post of the previous page. I love the concept of body horror spine vampires. Bit of tweaking so they need to swap bodies more often and it could also be a creepy as hell antagonist. Something has been murdering its way through ghouls or humans, who all seem to be missing their spines when they're found? That could be a fun mystery.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:13
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Can't Strix also pilot a corpse in daylight, or am I remembering that wrong? Also, this reminds me of the comic Witch Doctor, where a vampire is a parasitic worm that replaces the host's internal organs and extends out of their mouth during feeding. Maybe that's where this pseudovamp's special powers come in? Altogether this feels like something partway down the convergence on vampirism, where if we let them stew for a few centuries they'd be even more Kindred-y.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:25
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Ferrinus posted:V5 is not better than Requiem. You really need to calm down, though; my criticism of V5’s polish does not really warrant the kind of histrionics you and your friends are going through here. Man writing multiple pages agonizing over one dot: calm down Lmao V5 is def better Invitations to my game are open if youd like to play
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Aug 1, 2019 17:32
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Oberst posted:Man writing multiple pages agonizing over one dot: calm down It's amazing that you haven't filled your game up already considering your friendly and non-confrontational personality.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:39
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I could story tell circles around this thread and I'm extremely nice and friendly
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Aug 1, 2019 17:49
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Joe Slowboat posted:It is also kinda weird how a flurry of posters all declaring 'V5 is amazing, no I will not be discussing this further' showed up at once. Oberst's multiposts and insistence that nobody who disagrees plays the games are uniquely obnoxious, though. Just edit your post if you need to add more, please! IIRC there was a similar flurry when the playtest and then the core dropped, in the general chat. In this thread as I recall, we mostly debated the poor fashion choices of the undead in 2019.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:50
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Requiem is so much better than Masquerade it’s not even close.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:03
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MollyMetroid posted:You're allowed to like metaplot but...metaplot burns poo poo when someone in charge decides that the faction you like to play as doesn't exist anymore, or that the entire clan you wanted to use got wiped out, or any of those things. Yeah. You can absolutely ignore that for your home game, but you're also absolutely not getting new material to support the use of these options while everyone who's not trampled on by the metaplot continues to see new material developed for them, and frankly there were reasons the industry shifted away from metaplot after the 90s. So you're allowed to like metaplot, but not really? Honestly the metaplot is what I love Vampire for. Requiem's decision to entirely kill it off was stupid as hell and I'm loving glad V5 brought it back.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:04
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Oberst posted:Man writing multiple pages agonizing over one dot: calm down You have definitely written more than me on the topic, but you also compulsively hit the post button between every few sentences. Immediately resorting to ridiculous lies and exaggerations to pretend an obvious problem doesn’t exist is a sign of being extremely emotionally invested and defensive. V5 has some novel mechanics and I appreciate that its combat system is simpler than Requiem 2E’s (but not than 1E’s, especially given all the mistakes and ambiguities that call for on the spot adjudication that neither 1E or 2E’s rules need) but its setting is much worse and less customizable and a lot of the wheels it reinvents don’t really need to be. Like, Hunger is cute but you could just do the same thing with Vitae without the clumsy construction of rolling to Rouse twice but taking the best result.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:05
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:What about, instead of making it where the base power buy-in is how the bloodline becomes an effectively playable PC, you make it where the default state is that, and that the first dot of Parasitism (or hell, the third dot, and make the first and second 'you can more efficiently take advantage of the benefits of not really being obligated to this body') is the body-hopper? Just wanna say it's nice to see people talking about bloodline stuff, it's been on my mind because I've been working on my own mirror themed Nosferatu line. My gut feeling says the xenomorph bits should be 4 or 5 instead. It's basically a new mode of play. Perhaps instead 3 lets the vampire tap into the ghoul's memory for vitae?
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Aug 1, 2019 18:07
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The Unlife Aquatic posted:Just wanna say it's nice to see people talking about bloodline stuff, it's been on my mind because I've been working on my own mirror themed Nosferatu line. My gut feeling says the xenomorph bits should be 4 or 5 instead. It's basically a new mode of play. Perhaps instead 3 lets the vampire tap into the ghoul's memory for vitae?
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Aug 1, 2019 18:09
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I mean, you could write metaplot that doesn't rapidly swing game elements that people are using in and out of canon.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:11
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When people say “metaplot” do they mean the setting backstory with Caine and the Second Inquisiton etc or do they specifically mean the idea that the official setting will change as new books come out and inform us all that the Gangrel have rejoined the Camarilla or whatever?
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Aug 1, 2019 18:12
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juggalo baby coffin posted:now as payment for writing this everyone has to say nice things about my other ideas I had. I feel like there should have been something in there about the bloodline really tying the clan together. I liked the Odsečen one, but I run Awakening at the moment and I can't see that as being super playable for most games. It's definitely something that's really cool and leaving the body and taking over another one is actually really awesome and I could see that being a fun mechanic to abuse to screw with the players in a few different games. I'm still not sure how it would work in practice in a game, but I haven't played Requiem since before 2e.
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Aug 1, 2019 18:14
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