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CottonWolf posted:I don't think I have the mental energy to go through that. For people with more time on their hands than me, do they hate EoE?  E: I am still working through the Ringer casts and so far of the three podcast series (that I know about at least) that have been mentioned in this thread it is my favorite, if only because they have both the enthusiasm for the show and ability to pick up on a lot of details and themes that they know to be important from watching it before. Which is also arguably the downside to it since there are no "new" experiences from the two guys (one watched in the early 2000s, one watched it like a year ago) but it just helps that they know what is worth paying attention to and what seemingly isn't, and it is interesting when say they pick up hints and elements about the Asuka/Shinji relationship that Waypoint gleefully zoomed past. I still have like 2.5 to go through so we'll see but given what they've talked about so far it seems like it will remain solid to the end. Nate RFB fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 16:59
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Nate RFB posted:I'll give you a hint: Perfect.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:08
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Nate RFB posted:I'll give you a hint: 
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Aug 1, 2019 17:12
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Rob seems to think the scene at the start of EoE is a statement against self pleasure.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:17
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“Why is the main character masturbating over his crush’s comatose body framed as wrong?” “It must be because the scene is anti-masturbation.”
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Aug 1, 2019 17:24
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Ethiser posted:Rob seems to think the scene at the start of EoE is a statement against self pleasure. This made me bite the bullet and listen to it. This take is so spectacularly bad, I had to know whether or not it was real.
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Aug 1, 2019 17:24
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At its core EoE is a very honest and personal movie. Trying to read it as a moralizing sermon leads to extremely weird takes like that one.
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Aug 1, 2019 19:24
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CottonWolf posted:This made me bite the bullet and listen to it. This take is so spectacularly bad, I had to know whether or not it was real. They have had a few moments like this. Where they all land on some bizarre interpretation and that kinda ends up being their take for that thing regardless of how much it makes sense. It's an odd series of podcasts. There is a lot of great insight mixed with a lot of weirdly stubborn resistance to things both arbitrarily and stuff that is genuinely troubling. I don't think I'm gonna listen to this last one though. It's just not that fun to listen to people be mad at a thing.
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Aug 1, 2019 19:34
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This is so sad, alexa play komm susser tod. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHMkRHk9lgI
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Aug 1, 2019 19:36
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Irony Be My Shield posted:At its core EoE is a very honest and personal movie. Trying to read it as a moralizing sermon leads to extremely weird takes like that one. Well, yes, but the full title of the series also is something like Glowing Genesis: The New Century's Gospel. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 19:42
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, yes, but the full title of series also is something like Glowing Genesis: The New Century's Gospel. I think the show was named by either Gendo or Seele.
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Aug 1, 2019 19:44
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think the show was named by either Gendo or Seele. Irony Be My Shield posted:Trying to read it as a moralizing sermon leads to extremely weird takes like that one. I love that scene for what it forces the audience to confront and how it fosters this really alienating sense.
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Aug 1, 2019 20:04
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FilthyImp posted:I love that scene for what it forces the audience to confront and how it fosters this really alienating sense. I'm still convinced it goes there within the first 2 minutes just to go "THIS AIN'T TELEVISION ANYMORE MOTHERFUCKERS" as fast as possible in case someone wants to get out immediately.
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Aug 1, 2019 20:06
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END ME SCOOB posted:I'm still convinced it goes there within the first 2 minutes just to go "THIS AIN'T TELEVISION ANYMORE MOTHERFUCKERS" as fast as possible in case someone wants to get out immediately.
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Aug 1, 2019 20:11
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Trying to read it as a moralizing sermon leads to extremely weird takes SuperMechagodzilla posted:Well, yes, but the full title of the series also is something like Glowing Genesis: The New Century's Gospel. 
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Aug 1, 2019 20:17
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SHISHKABOB posted:I think the show was named by either Gendo or Seele. Perhaps edited by them too, since the End Of The Gospel is literally the fall of man from paradise as (re-)enacted by the main characters. They wake up ashamed of their nakedness, metaphorically speaking, hence “disgusting”. The point of it all is that Asuka fantasizes about being a dead object and Shinji fantasizes about reunion with his mother, so they ‘should’ be in perfect bliss - but they’ve seen too much of eachother. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 20:43
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How about the part where they seem to think the only way Misato could have sex-negative feelings was if she was raised Christian. I mean, they're right that Misato's whole 'dirty girl' turn sucks and is a disservice to her character, but they also seemed confused as to where that idea came from. Come to think of it, the podcast could have really used someone who knew about toxic masculinty in Japan. There were a few moments where Anno is clearly criticizing toxic attitudes and they miss it entirely.
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Aug 1, 2019 20:54
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how the gently caress have i never put this together before:muscles like this! posted:Eva chat, I laughed pretty hard at the combination of this video and its title.
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Aug 1, 2019 22:26
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*Gendo pose* Hmm, yes. Indeed.
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Aug 1, 2019 22:30
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noether posted:I just got to the point where shinji kills kaworu at terminal dogma last night. I think his introduction where he kills the cat is interesting, but after that, he just seems super pushy and the fact that he and shinji really don't get along kind of makes the rest of that arc kind of hard to believe, I guess. honestly though, I've been really enjoying all the non-kaworu content so far. Cool so I can try to act smart for a second. I think Anime and Manga Kaworu show the pros and cons of being inhuman. In the anime, everybody is "exploiting" Shinji. Even good people who genuinely care about him like Misato are still exploiting him as she wants to kill Angels to satisfy her vengeance. It's simply part of being human that unconditional love is probably an impossibility. We all have needs that must be met and subconscious desire we're unaware of. Kaworu though is an alien. He doesn't have any ulterior motive at all. He loves Shinji for Shinji and no other reason. Not being human means he is free from our flaws and his affection for Shinji is "pure." Manga Kaworu though shows what is positive about being human. Kaworu is completely incapable of understanding how humans think, feel or interact and that's a bad thing in this version because he thinks in coldly logical ways that a human cannot fathom. Whether it's killing the cat or mocking Rei's death, it was just him behaving in a completely inhuman way. his inhumanity is a barrier between him and Shinji as opposed to a bond. I used the word "exploit" in quotes because Shinji outright says Manga Kaworu is exploiting him just like everyone else does. A pretty intentional contrast with the anime i think. But there is one thing he is consistent about; one thing that persists in agitating him and evoking a emotional response. That is Shinji's dislike for him. It's really more like indifference as he barely pays attention to Kaworu. He crashes at his place when he has to then leaves him like nothing ever happened when he wants to. He simply does not care about Kaworu and Kaworu is clearly upset by this. He asks several times "why don't you like me??!!" So there comes the morbid way I interpret his death in the manga. He asked Shinji to kill him so that Shinji can no longer ignore him. This way, he will forever be in Shinji's mind and heart. Oh sure, it will be a guilt-ridden and hated memory but that's what he wants. Shinji is going to suffer forever because of him and that was his objective. Shinji's happiness means nothing to him as opposed to the anime version. This, along with Asuka being useless, is my one serious complaint about the manga compared to the TV version.' I won't say I liked Manga Kaworu much but he left an impression. I hope you like the manga version of EOE. I liked it a lot.
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Aug 2, 2019 01:40
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that seems like a pretty good reading of it. tangentially, I got a lot of "abusive relationship" flags during the whole kaworu arc, and his "gently caress you, kill me with your own hands" speech at the end is really a capstone of the whole thing. I definitely like the way the anime his character way better. I'm just getting the beginning of 3rd impact in the manga now. gendo briefly getting matrix powers is incredibly dumb, but I loving love it anyway
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Aug 2, 2019 03:01
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noether posted:that seems like a pretty good reading of it. tangentially, I got a lot of "abusive relationship" flags during the whole kaworu arc, and his "gently caress you, kill me with your own hands" speech at the end is really a capstone of the whole thing. I definitely like the way the anime his character way better. Some people I've talked to accused Sadamoto of homophobia for what you observed. He demolished the beautiful relationship between Shinji and Kaworu and made it very toxic. Me personally I think he probably just did it so Shinji/Rei is the only option. Which, again, I don't mind because I like how much agency Rei gets earlier on. As for Manga Gendo, I like how much of a misanthrope he was and Shinji is really almost on his level of just hating everything by Third Impact. Doesn't his talk with Shinji come right after the scene you described? I remember it pretty vividly because he talks about how he's always hated Shinji but Shinji is also full of hate so perhaps their bond of hatred can work together and undo this crappy, crappy world. Maybe this is why the Ikaris are treated way worse in the manga 
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Aug 2, 2019 03:30
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Let us English posted:How about the part where they seem to think the only way Misato could have sex-negative feelings was if she was raised Christian. I mean, they're right that Misato's whole 'dirty girl' turn sucks and is a disservice to her character, but they also seemed confused as to where that idea came from. From what I hear secondhand, this podcast is right for the wrong reasons. Evangelion is ‘sex negative’, in the sense that Misato’s psychosexual hang-ups around her father’s death are what led to her extreme dedication to the fascist state. (Specifically: Misato’s claim that she’s out to avenge her dad - used to justify the increasingly risky tactics - is a lie that she tells herself to repress her real desire of reuniting with him, even in death. Every big gamble betrays a secret hope that it won’t work this time - but, until you then, you have her overcommitment to eradicating the enemy supplemented by her private self-abasement). The issue isn’t that Misato could have a healthier sexual relationship with Kaji or whoever, in other words, but that the pursuit of a ‘balanced’ sexual relationship is itself an aspect of her fascism. Likewise, Shinji masturbating is bad even outside of all the issues with consent simply because of the underlying fantasy that ends up materialized at the end of The End Of The Gospel. [The real ‘problematic’ part of the movie is its implication that Asuka wants to be objectified in this way, and that’s why she attempted suicide (see the earlier episode where she sleepwalks into Shinji’s bed). As with Misato, Asuka’s furious activity is a means of repressing her innermost wish of becoming a doll. Lilith/Rei repeatedly states that Shinji and the others wished for all this - however unconsciously. So the part where Asuka merges with Shinji’s mind and proudly tells him that she knows he masturbated allows her to act as both her bedridden mother and her father’s mistress.] “In order to grasp properly what takes place here, one has to take a detour through what Lacan called la jouissance de l’Autre – what is this mysterious jouissance? Imagine (a real clinical case, though) two love partners who excite each other by verbalizing, telling to each other, their innermost sexual fantasies to such a degree that they reach full orgasm without touching, just as the effect of ‘mere talking.’ The result of such excess of intimacy is not difficult to guess: after such a radical mutual exposure, they will no longer be able to maintain their amorous link – too much was being said, or, rather, the spoken word, the big Other, was too directly flooded by jouissance, so the two are embarrassed by each other’s presence and slowly drift apart, start to avoid each other’s presence. THIS, not a full perverse orgy, is the true excess: not ‘practicing your innermost fantasies instead of just talking about them,’ but, precisely, TALKING about them, allowing them to invade the medium of the big Other to such an extent that one can literally ‘gently caress with words,’ that the elementary, constitutive, barrier between language and jouissance breaks down.” -Zizek The ‘radical mutual exposure’ described in the above quote effectively summarizes the last half of the movie. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 2, 2019 05:15
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NikkolasKing posted:Some people I've talked to accused Sadamoto of homophobia for what you observed. I don't think that would be much of a stretch tbh. I didn't quite get that impression from it, but kaworu's characterization definitely does come a bit too close for comfort to the whole "predatory gay dude" thing. NikkolasKing posted:As for Manga Gendo, I like how much of a misanthrope he was and Shinji is really almost on his level of just hating everything by Third Impact. Doesn't his talk with Shinji come right after the scene you described? I remember it pretty vividly because he talks about how he's always hated Shinji but Shinji is also full of hate so perhaps their bond of hatred can work together and undo this crappy, crappy world. manga gendo is such a heel lol. that speech and the one he has earlier in the graveyard where he tells shinji to stop trying to contact him both own also that sadamoto quote is 
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Aug 2, 2019 05:38
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NikkolasKing posted:Some people I've talked to accused Sadamoto of homophobia for what you observed. He demolished the beautiful relationship between Shinji and Kaworu and made it very toxic. Me personally I think he probably just did it so Shinji/Rei is the only option. Which, again, I don't mind because I like how much agency Rei gets earlier on. tbf shinji's friendship with kaworu was always kinda toxic(in that kaworu is kind of an rear end in a top hat for inserting himself as an emotional crutch for this kid while also fully knowing that this will not end well for anyone involved one way or another), it's just that the manga turned up the toxicity dial to TURBO Yinlock fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Aug 2, 2019 |
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Aug 2, 2019 05:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:From what I hear secondhand, this podcast is right for the wrong reasons. Evangelion is ‘sex negative’, in the sense that Misato’s psychosexual hang-ups around her father’s death are what led to her extreme dedication to the fascist state. And that's why Shinji strangles Asuka at the end. And explains her comment of "I feel sick/how disgusting".
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Aug 2, 2019 07:57
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I feel sick
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Aug 2, 2019 08:15
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i'm shinji and i'm strangling asuka as SMG
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Aug 2, 2019 08:23
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That moment when Shinji's jizzhand reminds you of almost exact framing in Ep1 when he' over an equally incapacitated Rei except it's full of blood.
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Aug 2, 2019 08:49
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Kimochi warui
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Aug 2, 2019 09:33
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FilthyImp posted:That moment when Shinji's jizzhand reminds you of almost exact framing in Ep1 when he' over an equally incapacitated Rei except it's full of blood. the deep imagery of jacking off when you should not be jacking off
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Aug 2, 2019 10:36
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Yinlock posted:the deep imagery of jacking off when you should not be jacking off Yeah it's not like hands are used all the time in the show in order to represent stuff.
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Aug 2, 2019 16:13
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I've enjoyed the Waypoint Eva podcast so far, but the last episode is kind of... completely crazy? Like, they decided to interpret the tramuatic events of EoE purely as a bad-faith attack on the viewer. Characters being hurt isn't an event in the story, but a malicious assault on the viewers affection for those characters because 'gently caress you' Th e point where it became unlistenable for me is when they get to the second half of EoE. Rob Zachney starts an aside about how in the movie Shinji is no longer a character, but depression as a concept put on screen, and that his inability to defeat the mass Eva units and live up to Misato's last wish is the show saying that putting faith in depressed peopLe is worthless. That depressed people will always fail and are worthy of contempt, and then that this contempt for depressed people makes the show grotesque, awful, etc. Then they move on without anyone pointin out that this read is insanely wrong. A depressed character being thrust into a completely unmanageable situation by the will of others and managing to somehow rally themselves, 'man up', and save the day wpuld be far more crass than what actually happens in the show. I agree with a lot of their criticisms of the show, esp. regarding Ritsuko, but holy poo poo do they get emotionally charged and off the rails in this episode. Scrree fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 2, 2019 |
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Aug 2, 2019 16:40
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It became quite apparent that the endgame themes with regards to especially Shinji were going to be completely lost on Rob when in I think the episode 20 discussion he said something to the effect of "I know depression is not something that is simply solved or 'has an arc' or whatever in real life, but this is a loving TV show and it has to go somewhere by now".
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Aug 2, 2019 17:00
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I see where they are coming from though. It’s a pretty enjoyable show and then Anno decides to go all philosophy 101 without really saying anything.
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Aug 2, 2019 17:01
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Wow I can see why this is a podcast people like to listen to. Because they enjoy microwaving their brains.
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Aug 2, 2019 17:02
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SHISHKABOB posted:Wow I can see why this is a podcast people like to listen to. Because they enjoy microwaving their brains. The curse of Eva.
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Aug 2, 2019 17:30
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Invalid Validation posted:I see where they are coming from though. It’s a pretty enjoyable show and then Anno decides to go all philosophy 101 without really saying anything. Eoe kinda hammers it's themes into the viewer lol
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Aug 2, 2019 17:52
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Luigi Thirty posted:The curse of Eva.  That's strictly for arrested development and gloom + some occasional doom.
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Aug 2, 2019 17:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The issue isn’t that Misato could have a healthier sexual relationship with Kaji or whoever, in other words, but that the pursuit of a ‘balanced’ sexual relationship is itself an aspect of her fascism. Compare these with the sync rate concept, where the greater the union between a given 14-year-old and a robot...the greater they're able to project NERVs agenda and the more value they have to the organization.
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Aug 2, 2019 18:07
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