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lol at the people who are complaining that there is insufficient murder in the game when the central focus of the entire plot is a method for completely changing someone to become a good person through non-violent means literally the kind of dumb tankie internet commentary that we actually see in-game as an example of Yaldabaoth's point
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Aug 3, 2019 02:08
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CJ posted:
It isn't the translation's fault, other than maybe being too literal (and even there, it's used by the actual game too, as pointed out in another post). The word Ryuji uses here is 美学 (bigaku), which literally means "aesthetic".
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Aug 3, 2019 02:12
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Fojar38 posted:lol at the people who are complaining that there is insufficient murder in the game when the central focus of the entire plot is a method for completely changing someone to become a good person through non-violent means To be fair, the only way the Phantom Thieves are “non-violent” is that their targets are just the mental representations of people rather than their bodies. We are still shanking people in the feelings until they agree to be less terrible. As well as savagely beating, mugging, enslaving, and executing sentient beings by the dozens with generic Shadows. That said, the demands for more murder and violent revolution are pretty creepy. Geostomp fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Aug 3, 2019 |
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Aug 3, 2019 03:05
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Fojar38 posted:lol at the people who are complaining that there is insufficient murder in the game when the central focus of the entire plot is a method for completely changing someone to become a good person through non-violent means If there was a super time out for Akechi I'd take him there, but given the police are useless in game and he's got connections to bail him out of drat near any other situation, there aren't a lot of options available to deal with heart thief but also an actual murderer guy. Just give him a super time out, game.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:08
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Put him in lockdown in the velvet room.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:12
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Velvet room consisting of a blue time out chair and a dunce cap. Akechi can only wear the cap and sit on the chair.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:13
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cheesetriangles posted:Put him in lockdown in the velvet room. It'd be cool if he did join you in Persona 5 Royal, and he operates as a smaller Wild Card, where he can switch between Loki and Robin Hood. Maybe even to the other party member's arcana if he reaches "Rank 1" with them or whatever
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Aug 3, 2019 03:27
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You know what'd be a fun twist that'd make Shido less lame and anticlimactic? Give Shido a Persona and go all-in on the 'chosen by God' thing that his shadow brings up during his fight. Instead of taking the shutdown pills, he takes out his phone and vanishes into the Metaverse, and surprise, there he is, and it's time for round three. Make him a full-blown Apostle of The God Of Control who can have a Palace and a Persona at the same time because Yaldabaoth doesn't believe there's such a thing as too much cheating. Give him a full-blown insane god complex that Yaldabaoth nurtured and let gorge to create a perfect emissary. Make him even more like Senator Armstrong. This also allows you to make Akechi even more pitiful and wretched. He didn't actually have a chance and was only used for things that Shido didn't want to personally dirty his hands with. Gulping Again fucked around with this message at 03:36 on Aug 3, 2019 |
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Aug 3, 2019 03:30
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Gulping Again posted:You know what'd be a fun twist that'd make him a lot scarier? I’d be all for this.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:33
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boring plus you can't simultaneously have a persona and a shadow, and there is no way that shido would ever accept his megalomania as the corruptive influence that it is
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Aug 3, 2019 03:33
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"hey you know what'd be a crackerjack way to improve this tapioca cipher of a villain who hogs up all of the story's time? give him another boss fight!"
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Aug 3, 2019 03:36
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Fojar38 posted:lol at the people who are complaining that there is insufficient murder in the game when the central focus of the entire plot is a method for completely changing someone to become a good person through non-violent means Brainwashing people is also real hosed up just for the record
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Aug 3, 2019 03:37
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TheKingofSprings posted:Brainwashing people is also real hosed up just for the record Yeah, in a way it's already killing them, so what exactly is the point of also killing them IRL aside from naked bloodlust? That was the problematic element of the aforementioned internet tankie types that we see providing commentary in-game. They weren't so interested in Okumura stopping his wicked ways so much as they were interested in a sense of cathartic vengeance. It stopped being about the actions of the heart-change target for the masses and started to become some sort of perverse entertainment. Fojar38 fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Aug 3, 2019 |
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Aug 3, 2019 03:45
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Fojar38 posted:Yeah, in a way it's already killing them, so what exactly is the point of also killing them IRL aside from naked bloodlust? look at this palooka who leaves a job half-finished
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Aug 3, 2019 03:46
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the game does not treat changes of heart as brainwashing because it has a tiresomely rousseau-ian view of human nature where the palaces and treasures are less an intrinsic part of their personality and more a steady accumulation of corruption borne from the rationalization of their wicked acts, which piles up on them like barnacles on a hull. stealing the treasure collapses those rationalizations and forces the target to come to grips with their actions without any of the comforting justification they'd built up around them. what they do afterwards isn't due to any further action on the thieves' part of course then the final act comes and shows that the thieves' targeted rehabilitations were all for naught, because the people they targeted were then immediately enfolded by the corrupted gestalt of society itself and its own "treasure," Yaldabaoth. this was actually a very neat plot twist! it only pratfalled by expecting us to believe that the newly-purged population would then be safely stewarded by the very same generation and institutions that led it to such a state in the first place, which becomes more and more of a howler as the world in which we live is devoured by an unrelenting tide of evil (and also seawater) Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Aug 3, 2019 |
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Aug 3, 2019 03:49
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Shido should have been the one killing people, it would have made things a lot less convoluted.
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Aug 3, 2019 03:54
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:Shido should have been the one killing people, it would have made things a lot less convoluted. Yeah this is why I said give Shido a Persona, in addition to the cheat codes to have a Palace and Shadow at the same time as that Persona. poo poo, tie him in with Events Long Past, have him have been an intern at SEBEC or some poo poo.
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Aug 3, 2019 04:36
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PhantomPayne posted:I dunno man, Cabbage man isn't a pretty boy, and i'm sure he was in the top spots of japans character polls There's something very satisfying in a villian who doesn't have a tragic backstory, or some kind of greater good plan, or poo poo like that. There are people out there who are monsters, who do evil simply because they enjoy doing so, no matter what most media would tell you, and when written well they make absolutely amazing antagonists.
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Aug 3, 2019 06:40
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I'll never be able to imagine Shido as anything other than a Ganon-esque reincarnation of Cloud District guy from Skyrim Good 'ol Keith Silverstein
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Aug 3, 2019 06:48
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Great now I can never unhear that.
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Aug 3, 2019 07:40
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Blaze Dragon posted:It isn't the translation's fault, other than maybe being too literal (and even there, it's used by the actual game too, as pointed out in another post). The word Ryuji uses here is 美学 (bigaku), which literally means "aesthetic". I assumed it was a direct translation but is "bigaku" something a delinquent teenager would possibly say, or is it an equally weird thing for him to say in Japanese as well?
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Aug 3, 2019 09:07
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What makes the ethics of changing hearts muddled is that it's unclear if the new way the target is going to act is simply a result of beating up their Shadow and taking the Treasure, or if what you instruct them to do after that matters. Could you pull an "actually, your atonement is going to be about giving me all your money and being my personal slave"? What would happen if the Phantom Thieves just left without saying a word? Three possibilities: 1) Objective morality is a thing in this universe, and stealing the Treasure removes the justifications that allowed them to ignore it. The part where the PTs instruct the target to atone are redundant, except possibly as providing them with a "how-to". 2) The morality in question is actually decided by Yaldabaoth, who's by nature mostly an offshoot of the desire for order of the general population, but also an rear end in a top hat and a cheat, so it's presumably a possibility for him to just twist that influence on the targets to his personal advantage. 3) Stealing the Treasure just leaves the target vulnerable and influenceable, and it would be possible for the PTs to make the target do all sort of things or adopt their own subjective morality. The fact that not everyone has a Palace seems to point to either 1) or 2) (in that the criteria for who qualifies have to come from somewhere), and the prison down in Mementos seems more coherent imagery with 2). Then again, it's possible the two options are treated as similar by the game, with the choice being this SMT dilemma between being ruled by either one rear end in a top hat or a rule-of-the-strong style variety of assholes, with morality being a figleaf for the former option.
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Aug 3, 2019 09:51
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YaketySass posted:What makes the ethics of changing hearts muddled is that it's unclear if the new way the target is going to act is simply a result of beating up their Shadow and taking the Treasure, or if what you instruct them to do after that matters. Could you pull an "actually, your atonement is going to be about giving me all your money and being my personal slave"? What would happen if the Phantom Thieves just left without saying a word? Well there have been a lot of people who interpret the Phantom Thieves as Chaos faction. I personally think it's abundantly clear every Persona party is Neutral as hell since the moral of the story is always to gently caress up gods and let humanity decide its own destiny. The reigns of history back in the hands of man. You make an interesting observation though. I've never thought about the influence the Thieves had over the guilt-ridden villains. They seemed so overcome with their crimes that you could probably talk them into anything, including walking off the roof of a building as a means of atonement.
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Aug 3, 2019 10:11
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NikkolasKing posted:Well there have been a lot of people who interpret the Phantom Thieves as Chaos faction. I personally think it's abundantly clear every Persona party is Neutral as hell since the moral of the story is always to gently caress up gods and let humanity decide its own destiny. The reigns of history back in the hands of man. The targets lean toward Chaos, most of their Shadows are going "I can do whatever I want, it's other people's fault for being too weak to stop me". For me the best case scenario is 1), since it severely limits what you could get someone to do (and gently caress the idea that stopping someone from thinking rape and murder is okay is some intolerable tyranny). 2) is obviously the worst, while 3) "merely" makes stealing hearts an extremely dangerous weapon to be used responsibly.
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Aug 3, 2019 10:43
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YaketySass posted:What makes the ethics of changing hearts muddled is that it's unclear if the new way the target is going to act is simply a result of beating up their Shadow and taking the Treasure, or if what you instruct them to do after that matters. Could you pull an "actually, your atonement is going to be about giving me all your money and being my personal slave"? What would happen if the Phantom Thieves just left without saying a word? Changing a person's heart works if their desires are redirected towards healthier methods which for these targets are morw in the "Too far gone" category. Futaba would have confessed to leading medjed on public tv and Sae would have spoke of her corruption and take the fall for the SIU and Mishima would just shut down the Phansite had you actually taken their treasure. Desires never were a bad thing but the means decides if you are distorted or not.
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Aug 3, 2019 19:58
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I just watched "Preview 2" of the royale and noticed something. A lot of the lines used involved a common theme: "Maybe this was a mistake." With the "this" referring to a bunch of different things in context: * Joker turning himself in after christmas (At least the line's being used to jab at that). * Joker betraying the phantom thieves' ideals, or something (the Join Yaldy bad end?) * The party screwing around in/destroying Mementos? * The party running away from a climactic fight (with Yaldy?) * Kasumi (joining||fighting) the Phantom Thieves? * Doing something they didn't in the original story? I wouldn't mind if the revised story became more self-reflective of it's previous and current failings. But I wonder what the new whole will look like...
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Aug 3, 2019 23:02
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gyrobot posted:Changing a person's heart works if their desires are redirected towards healthier methods which for these targets are morw in the "Too far gone" category. Futaba would have confessed to leading medjed on public tv and Sae would have spoke of her corruption and take the fall for the SIU and Mishima would just shut down the Phansite had you actually taken their treasure. futaba was a weird case in a lot of ways, but her treasure was taken, it's just that her "distortion" wasn't the self-justifying cruelty of the other targets but rather her own guilt over her mother's death. she wouldn't have confessed about leading medjed because her hacker activities had nothing to do with her distortion, other than maybe giving her an outlet to cope with it. changing her heart just meant she was unburdened by her guilt, and even then, she had to overcome her agoraphobia and social anxiety on her own
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Aug 4, 2019 01:02
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Just like the confrontation with the Shadow Self in P4 is only the beginning of your teammates' character development, the resolution of Futaba's Palace isn't an absolute on-off switch. It's more like the foundation necessary to start growing into a different person.
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Aug 4, 2019 01:17
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This Thread: Yosuke is disgusting he makes fun of Kanji for being maybe gay and that's unforgivable Also This Thread: Goro is just a kid he doesn't know any better than to kill dozens or possibly hundreds of people Also Goro's plan is dumb because the writing for the ending of his whole arc is bad, not because the writers made it a bad plan on purpose to represent how broken he is. RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Aug 4, 2019 |
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Aug 4, 2019 02:19
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Oxxidation posted:futaba was a weird case in a lot of ways, but her treasure was taken, it's just that her "distortion" wasn't the self-justifying cruelty of the other targets but rather her own guilt over her mother's death. she wouldn't have confessed about leading medjed because her hacker activities had nothing to do with her distortion, other than maybe giving her an outlet to cope with it. changing her heart just meant she was unburdened by her guilt, and even then, she had to overcome her agoraphobia and social anxiety on her own It would still be damning evidence, taking treasure also destroys your desire to do that one thing in life and accept complacency under Yaldy. Since the treasure was herself, she had chosen to channel her new desire towards unleashing her anger and "cruelty" on the group that called the hit on her family. Or what little anger she can muster from her socially awkward state.
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Aug 4, 2019 04:51
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gyrobot posted:It would still be damning evidence, taking treasure also destroys your desire to do that one thing in life and accept complacency under Yaldy. Since the treasure was herself, she had chosen to channel her new desire towards unleashing her anger and "cruelty" on the group that called the hit on her family. Or what little anger she can muster from her socially awkward state. no, taking someone's treasure caused them to try and play by the rules of society, which played into yaldabaoth's hands because he'd rigged the population's hearts in advance to bend to his will futaba's behavior was also normalized to an extent, but because she had the rest of the phantom thieves to fall back on (and because she was still pretty weird to begin with), she didn't end up in the prison of regression alongside the other targets
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Aug 4, 2019 05:36
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I mean, it's all a bit metaphorical sure, but really it's pretty basic Jungian psychology. The palaces represent a target's stalled individuation and through it's destruction they are forced to undergo self realization and rejoin the collective unconsciousness, causing them to reexamine their actions from the view of society rather from the personal.
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Aug 4, 2019 07:12
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Stroth posted:I mean, it's all a bit metaphorical sure, but really it's pretty basic Jungian psychology. The palaces represent a target's stalled individuation and through it's destruction they are forced to undergo self realization and rejoin the collective unconsciousness, causing them to reexamine their actions from the view of society rather from the personal. Yeah, in the end you literally go into the collective unconscious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious I wonder if the cup's roots are a reference to the tree of life.
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Aug 4, 2019 09:41
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A cup is a dumb final boss
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Aug 4, 2019 09:45
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Next final bosses will be a big wand, a big sword and a big coin.
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Aug 4, 2019 09:59
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Shinjobi posted:A cup is a dumb final boss The final boss is god and you shoot him in the face. Nietzsche would approve. Probably so would Freud, though he would blame your mother.
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Aug 4, 2019 10:31
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I’m excited for P5R, but it has a lot of story work to do to beat P4G. It’s much better in terms of gameplay, but in terms of story and social links, I still prefer P4Gs upon replay.
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Aug 4, 2019 11:20
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https://twitter.com/p_kouhou/status/1158664915059539979 Morgana won't bug you as much to go to sleep in Royal.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:30
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Waffleman_ posted:https://twitter.com/p_kouhou/status/1158664915059539979 That's three for three where the first thing the remake did was "Hey, maybe we don't artificially and randomly restrict the player's time as much?" Which is just kinda irritating at this point, they obviously know better so stop saving it for the remake.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:49
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YaketySass posted:Next final bosses will be a big wand, a big sword and a big coin. Now we're talking
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Aug 6, 2019 19:52
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