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Mega Comrade posted:So if an employer rejects any candidate for any reason then the market is oversaturated? Not for "any reason". If the candidate demonstrates basic qualification and still gets rejected, it's a indicator of oversaturation. As an example, consider those amazon fulfillment centers. I don't know for a fact, but I bet 100% of applicants that apply for a job there gets hired. I actually worked at a fulfillment center about 15 years ago as a summer job before I graduated college. They did not grill me at all during the interview process. They basically just asked me "Can you lift 50 pounds?". I said "yes", and then they offered me the job. Obviously if someone who is a quadruple amputee applies, they won't get hired, but anybody able bodied that applies will get hired. It's not like they get 50 resumes but only have the resources to hire 10 of them. The interview process for those places only includes basic qualifications. The more people those fulfillment centers hire, the more orders they can fulfill quickly. Amazon wants to fulfill order as quickly as possible, so they hire everyone that applies. Software companies can't just hire everyone that applies because employing double the number of programmers doesn't double programmer productivity.
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Aug 6, 2019 18:38
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What's skilled labor precious
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Aug 6, 2019 18:39
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Progressive JPEG posted:What's skilled labor precious Impossible to count?
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Aug 6, 2019 18:41
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It's almost like technical competence is just one aspect of many that are weighed when considering hiring a senior developer to work as part of an engineering team and be a leader of projects and mentor to others.
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Aug 6, 2019 18:46
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Mega Comrade posted:So if an employer rejects any candidate for any reason then the market is oversaturated? It's like complaining you're hungry when there's a hot dog on the ground outside.
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Aug 6, 2019 18:50
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So a few things: (1) take home tests mostly suck, but they're typically just demo apps. I'd be pretty surprised/amused if anyone is actually trying to cobble together a large application out of parts written by job applicants, and if they exist I salute them and wish them luck. (2) take home tests are still better than whiteboarding (3) none of this would be a thing if programmers just had a union/guild/professional certification body like normal people do (4) github is not acceptable because they have no way to know if you actually wrote the code in question (5) lmao @ all this
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Aug 6, 2019 18:53
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School of How posted:Not for "any reason". If the candidate demonstrates basic qualification and still gets rejected, it's a indicator of oversaturation. Not being a massive goonlord is 'basic qualification' especially for a senior level guy hth. I don't think the problem here is 'oversaturation' aka a completely normal employment market where companies actually turn people down sometimes jfc
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Aug 6, 2019 18:53
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JawnV6 posted:It's like complaining you're hungry when there's a hot dog on the ground outside. xD
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Aug 6, 2019 18:53
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rotor posted:So a few things: Um, yes there is. You ask them questions about it. If they can answer the questions then you know they did the work. If someone just copied the code from somewhere else, it'll be blatantly obvious. The reason why companies don't do this is because it requires them to do the work of coming up with questions based on your github. They'd rather just make the applicant do all the work instead. School of How fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:01
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e: ^^ Yes, that's kinda the point. As an interviewer, I don't want to spend hours combing through random dude's collection of half-finished projects and OS forks to find a few useful things. As an interviewee, you should know what projects are worth presenting, and failing that, just do the new one.rotor posted:(3) none of this would be a thing if programmers just had a union/guild/professional certification body like normal people do To change the subject slightly, it would be fascinating to see how something like this could work. There are definitely levels of skill for developers, but how difficult would that be to quantify? There's not exactly an objective, multiple choice test you could study for for programming. Is there a business in there build around subjectively and anonymously assessing developers and assigning them grades as a way to speed through the first 3 stages of an interview process? kayakyakr fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 6, 2019 |
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Aug 6, 2019 19:08
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kayakyakr posted:e: ^^ Yes, that's kinda the point. As an interviewer, I don't want to spend hours combing through random dude's collection of half-finished projects and OS forks to find a few useful things. As an interviewee, you should know what projects are worth presenting, and failing that, just do the new one. Yes that's a huge business. There's been several startups in the interviewing space revolving around "get someone to pass a test without ever exposing their identity to the company". interviewing.io is one that comes to mind. I think a guild would be an amazing step forward for the industry. The core of the problem, in my mind, is that a guild would be a beauocracy. Beauocracies change very slowly, while our industry changes stupidly fast. So anything that got off the ground would constantly be at risk of falling behind the times, losing perceived and real value as an organization.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:22
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Careful Drums posted:Yes that's a huge business. There's been several startups in the interviewing space revolving around "get someone to pass a test without ever exposing their identity to the company". interviewing.io is one that comes to mind. We're programmers. Obviously the guild would be controlled by an AI hive mind.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:26
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kayakyakr posted:To change the subject slightly, it would be fascinating to see how something like this could work. There are definitely levels of skill for developers, but how difficult would that be to quantify? There's not exactly an objective, multiple choice test you could study for for programming. There are a bunch of startups trying to do stuff like this, TripleByte being perhaps the most well-known. They do upfront tech screening, and then present you as a “TripleByte qualified candidate” at some level of proficiency to companies that they partner with. I know a couple people who used them with mixed results, but sounds overall like a promising idea.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:28
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School of How posted:Not for "any reason". If the candidate demonstrates basic qualification and still gets rejected, it's a indicator of oversaturation. so between "everyone else, including governmental organizations devoted to studying this, is lying and only School of How has seen the truth" and "School of How is completely unqualified and too dumb to realize it" you went with the former?
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Aug 6, 2019 19:30
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Guinness posted:to companies that they partner with I think that's where they get it wrong. Ties you in to their partners, not the world at large. Granted, that is a good way to profit (since dev's won't do the certification if they have to pay money). Maybe gamify it? Style a guild around a video game guild, give members quests to gain levels. Fund via angel, sell it to Indeed for $$ after a couple of years as an exit strategy.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:34
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Other fields have mandatory continuing education credits, which I like. They show that you're at least willing to do (nearly) the bare minimum to keep up to date.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:41
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School of How posted:Um, yes there is. You ask them questions about it. If they can answer the questions then you know they did the work. If someone just copied the code from somewhere else, it'll be blatantly obvious. The reason why companies don't do this is because it requires them to do the work of coming up with questions based on your github. They'd rather just make the applicant do all the work instead. wow no poo poo, you mean that hiring managers would rather have each of 10 applicant do 30 minutes of work instead of the hiring manager doing 30 minutes of work for every 10 applicants? poo poo, this blows this whole thing wide open, gently caress, why didn't we think if this before
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Aug 6, 2019 19:41
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kayakyakr posted:
Bar exam for lawyers, doctor residency requirements, certifications for civil engineers, journeyman certs for machinists, none of this is anything new, just pick a model and run with it.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:43
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kayakyakr posted:I think that's where they get it wrong. Ties you in to their partners, not the world at large. I think this would functionally be the same as starting a successful consulting company then getting acquihired.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:44
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rotor posted:wow no poo poo, you mean that hiring managers would rather have each of 10 applicant do 30 minutes of work instead of the hiring manager doing 30 minutes of work for every 10 applicants? That's what really bugs me about the "its on my GitHub, NO QUESTIONS PLS" attitude, is just how unimaginative you'd have to be about how you could end-run the process.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:48
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rotor posted:Bar exam for lawyers, doctor residency requirements, certifications for civil engineers, journeyman certs for machinists, none of this is anything new, just pick a model and run with it. I mean, there are certs for programmers. And they're all bullshit. Residency requirements for doctors is more like a formalized system of junior level. Like saying, you're a junior until you have 3 years of experience at a low rate. Doesn't really fix quality. Bar exam is just testing against state laws. While you could probably set up testing for the various languages, programming is not quite as black/white as that. Journeyman certs are just another way to do entry-level. Doesn't fix the quality vs years thing.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:52
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all these things establish base competency, which is exactly what take home quiz bullshit is there to validate. There will always be interviews, just like there are for lawyers, doctors, engineers and machinists. The issue is all the hoop jumping that we force people through to verify that they're not idiots or con-men.
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Aug 6, 2019 19:56
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rotor posted:wow no poo poo, you mean that hiring managers would rather have each of 10 applicant do 30 minutes of work instead of the hiring manager doing 30 minutes of work for every 10 applicants? Its a symptom of oversaturation. If programmers were truly scarce, companies would have no choice but to spend 30 minutes looking over each applicant's github account. But because of oversaturation, they can't be bothered. Also, back in the day before oversaturation, having a github account with even just one finished projects was enough to land you a job. I landed my first job in 2010 based on one popular project on my github account. The only technical question they asked me was "explain to me what a lambda expression is". I answered that question with one sentence and then was offered the job. Now-a-days your github account is completely ignored.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:15
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I should feel bad about shitposting in this thread but *extremely Dylan voice* the times, they are a'changin'
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Aug 6, 2019 20:25
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There's a great middle ground between oversaturated and scarce. In any healthy market, senior positions are always going to require in person interviews with more than a single question. The fact that you got a first (junior) job on the strength of a github account and a small interview isn't surprising. The fact that you can't do the same for a senior position isn't surprising.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:35
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School of How posted:Its a symptom of oversaturation A hiring manager declining to spend an entire day on code reviews just so they can ask potential hires questions is just not going to happen at that level. People do that kind of homework when they're hiring VPs & C-levels, not a senior engineer. You're not that important. Just because the world is not bending over backwards to give you a job does not mean the market is "oversaturated" it just means that the potential employee pool is, if not large, at least greater than 2 or 3.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:40
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lifg posted:There's a great middle ground between oversaturated and scarce. In any healthy market, senior positions are always going to require in person interviews with more than a single question. I've done interviews where they ask me question after question after question for as much as 45 minutes straight. I answer each question correctly, and yet I never hear back from them. This happens over and over and over again. If the developer market was truly scarce, they would offer me a job as soon as I demonstrate to them I can code on a senior level. I can't tell you how many times I've nailed an interview only to be ignored after. This is textbook oversaturation. quote:A hiring manager declining to spend an entire day on code reviews just so they can ask potential hires questions
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Aug 6, 2019 20:47
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School of How posted:I've done interviews where they ask me question after question after question for as much as 45 minutes straight. I answer each question correctly, and yet I never hear back from them. perhaps you, the person who wasn't good enough, actually didn't answer each question correctly but just don't know enough to realize it
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Aug 6, 2019 20:49
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School of How posted:I've done interviews where they ask me question after question after question for as much as 45 minutes straight. I answer each question correctly, and yet I never hear back from them. This happens over and over and over again. If the developer market was truly scarce, they would offer me a job as soon as I demonstrate to them I can code on a senior level. Can you think of another way to explain what you're seeing? quote:Um, what? It doesn't take all day to look over someone's github. Give me 5 minutes and I can tell if a github account is legit or not. Really. In 5 minutes you can tell whether the code in my github was actually written by me? Because if you read back over the thread that's what is at issue here.
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Aug 6, 2019 20:55
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rotor posted:Can you think of another way to explain what you're seeing? quote:Really. In 5 minutes you can tell whether the code in my github was actually written by me? Because if you read back over the thread that's what is at issue here.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:07
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School of How posted:The only logical explanation is oversaturation. From 2010-2012 I received a total of 8 job offers. These were all without whiteboard interviews or take home projects. Since 2013 I've received a total of one job offer. Yet I've interviewed more times than I can count. A lot of those "rejections" come after I refuse to do the whiteboard or take home project. Many of them come without any explanation. Back in 2010-2012 I was rejected too, but not nearly as often, and it was always after I bombed the interview or some other explainable reason. why do you think that a thread full of people has concluded, based on your own description of the interview process and without even needing to hear from the interviewer, an alternative logical explanation about why you didn't get the job: that you are not qualified
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Aug 6, 2019 21:11
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Or are qualified but kind of a jerk nobody wants to work with
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Aug 6, 2019 21:12
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CPColin posted:Or are qualified but kind of a jerk nobody wants to work with Oldie Programming: qualified but kind of a jerk nobody wants to work with
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Aug 6, 2019 21:12
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C'mon everybody knows the real way to get a senior engineer position is via word-of-mouth from people you used to work with.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:15
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School of How, around where do you live? It might help us if we knew what region your dealing with.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:17
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CPColin posted:Or are qualified but kind of a jerk nobody wants to work with being able to work with people is a qualification, one that an interview is sort of aimed at uncovering
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Aug 6, 2019 21:21
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School of How posted:A lot of those "rejections" come after I refuse to do the whiteboard or take home project. School of How posted:I would ask the person to explain what each project does, and why they decided to build it and why they stopped working on it. I would cross-check their answers to the code I see on the repository. Using this process, if someone is a fake developer, it'll be blatantly obvious. School of How posted:I have a github account with over 70 repositories that I've been working on since 2007. I think it would take you more than 5 minutes to do... anything. Counting the LOC would take me more than 5 minutes.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:22
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School of How posted:The only logical explanation is oversaturation. quote:I would ask the person to explain what each project does, and why they decided to build it and why they stopped working on it. I would cross-check their answers to the code I see on the repository. Using this process, if someone is a fake developer, it'll be blatantly obvious. It would not, but I'm already tired of having a discussion with someone who is so clearly only interested in having their wrong conclusions validated. Have a good one!
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Aug 6, 2019 21:22
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vonnegutt posted:C'mon everybody knows the real way to get a senior engineer position is via word-of-mouth from people you used to work with. 
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Aug 6, 2019 21:27
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evilweasel posted:being able to work with people is a qualification, one that an interview is sort of aimed at uncovering in most orgs hiring a bad engineer is much worse than hiring no engineer at all.
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Aug 6, 2019 21:28
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