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Not Grover posted:Just got an offer for a promotion from specialist to team lead in implementation, which will mean having 5 direct reports on my team, and being one of three leads in my office. The promotion comes with a change in my bonus scheme, which makes up a little more than 20% of my income annually (around 14k in bonus annually), but is very reliable in being paid out (it’s more like a commission per completed project). The new structure is based on team kpi’s and billable days, and has a higher cap, but comes with the possibility that the bonus doesn’t get paid out of the team isn’t on enough projects across a quarter. It’s happened once that the other leads didn’t have their teams make their billable days, which isn’t really that much in their control.  that's a clever way of promoting suckers to more work and more risk of getting blame for upper management blunders hung around your neck for the same pay.If you have 5 direct reports where you used to have 0, then the base comp should be going up by like 15% minimum, with extra bonus potential on top. I mean if they come back and say "no that is the offer, take it or leave it" then I guess you take it, but they have to know that you are going to stick in that role for one (1) year and then jump to a company that will properly compensate you ASAP. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 1, 2019 |
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Aug 1, 2019 00:30
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Eric the Mauve posted:
Pretty much what I expected, and pretty much what happened. In some respects, this company does really well (6 month reviews with significant raises attached every time so far) and in others they are weirdly bad at dealing with these things. They said take it or leave it, so I’ll take it, but unless something changes drastically in the next 12 months (it is unlikely) I’ll be transitioning elsewhere for a real raise. In the end it’s the first official leadership experience I’ll have on my resume and therefore a good opportunity, so meh. If bonuses go the way I’d like, it’ll be more money, so I’ll let myself be somewhat optimistic about that.
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Aug 1, 2019 00:49
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Not Grover posted:Just got an offer for a promotion from specialist to team lead in implementation, which will mean having 5 direct reports on my team, and being one of three leads in my office. The promotion comes with a change in my bonus scheme, which makes up a little more than 20% of my income annually (around 14k in bonus annually), but is very reliable in being paid out (it’s more like a commission per completed project). The new structure is based on team kpi’s and billable days, and has a higher cap, but comes with the possibility that the bonus doesn’t get paid out of the team isn’t on enough projects across a quarter. It’s happened once that the other leads didn’t have their teams make their billable days, which isn’t really that much in their control.
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Aug 1, 2019 02:19
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Dik Hz posted:Why is the job open? Is it because they didn't pay gently caress-all to the last guy and he bailed? Added position, office is growing. The whole story is a long mess, but I’m basically transitioning out of working in vet clinics as a vet tech so even though I’m underpaid for the actual job I have, it’s my stepping stone to a better, more lucrative career. I went from making 31k/year as a tech ($17.50/hr, but on a 36 hour schedule) to making ~42.5k base plus ~10k in bonus and 4K in per diems as a software implementer for a veterinary software company, got back to back raises at 6 and 12 months, plus a boost to bonus scheme/per diems and to put me at 48k plus ~14.5k bonus and 6k in per diems. At the very best, I will make 52k base, 20k in bonuses, and 6k in per diems in the next 12 months, assuming the pattern of raises breaks (but I don’t think it will). E: when I think about having more than doubled my annual income in less than two years, it does feel pretty good though 😬
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Aug 1, 2019 03:26
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Just got off a call with a recruiter for a job I have an on-site for next week. We hadn't talked compensation at all and I deferred giving the usual, "I just want to make sure I'm a good fit." He shared where he thinks it'll end up, and the baseline before RSU's and signing bonus would be a straight up 100+% raise. Interview went well. I just got word that I will be receiving an offer letter in the next day or two. I've read this thread from beginning to end so I know I should be looking to maximize my salary at this point, but I'm a little star struck with the doubling of salary right (and hate my current job) now so the idea of pushing back is a bit difficult. On one hand the hiring manager is someone who I know well and used to work with so he knows I'm currently way under paid. On the other hand, I suspect this company doesn't necessarily involve hiring managers much in this part of the process. I'm also fairly confident that he's not going to try to gently caress me if given the chance. Currently my thought is to aim for a small bit of movement on the base salary and RSU's and make sure I can match my current vacation (four weeks).
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Aug 6, 2019 22:57
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Interview went well. I just got word that I will be receiving an offer letter in the next day or two. Congrats!! Sounds like regardless of the specifics that you are excited about this job and that it will be a huge increase. I think that you can likely push on the 4 weeks vacation as a negotiating lever, assuming that they offer less than that. The unfortunate reality is that you are unlikely to get them to come up to 4 weeks if that is not their policy. Since you mentioned RSUs, they are a large-ish public company, yes? I would wager that they will not be willing to budge on their vacation policy for a non-executive level person. It sucks BUT you can play this to your advantage as justification when asking for a bump in salary, RSUs, or larger signing bonus.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:08
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Guinness posted:It sucks BUT you can play this to your advantage as justification when asking for a bump in salary, RSUs, or larger signing bonus. Yeah, I went from 22 days of PTO to a company with 15 days PTO, but they also give a fully paid Xmas week, which I’d always put some of the 22 days towards at my old company. After reading this thread, I learned to always be negotiating, so even though I had almost the same amount of PTO, I asked for a higher base salary anyway. They offered $105k and I countered with $110k, which the recruiter immediately accepted. Of course, that means I probably didn’t ask for enough, but I was at $90k for the same title and the previous company, so I took it.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:39
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Vacation at an established company is basically a non starter unless you are pretty high up. That is what I have seen mostly.
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Aug 6, 2019 23:43
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My old boss has successfully now negotiated up two positions in two jobs. Never not counter an offer.
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Aug 7, 2019 01:30
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Yes, negotiating is like point #1 of the thread, but #2 is knowing when you've won.
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Aug 7, 2019 01:30
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Ghostnuke posted:Yes, negotiating is like point #1 of the thread, but #2 is knowing when you've won. Both times they were posting an ED job and offering it to her as a VP. Both times she said no, this is an ED job and they've gone back and said yeah you're right. My current company did that to me, offering me a VP job as an AVP and I took it because I was desperate to get out. Be like her, don't be like me. Edit: I was quickly promoted to VP because we both threw a fit afterward and Legal weighed in, but still.
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Aug 7, 2019 01:37
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So I interviewed for a store manager position. I was called today and offered an executive assistant position, reporting directly to the VP and handling the companies HR and facilities management. When I got the offer, the pay is the same we had discussed for the store manager position. I like the hours, I've never had a Monday to Friday office hour job, however instead of a 5 minute commute, my commute will be about 1.5 hours. We did not discuss pay over the phone when he told me, but the pay is listed in the email he sent. Should I suck it up and take the job? It would be a huge boost to my resume to do something like this. How should I bring up discussing pay or a mileage allowance?
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Aug 7, 2019 14:39
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Others can weigh in but I don't think you would get mileage allowance for something like this. It would be very reasonable to ask for more pay based on the increased commute. You can say you're excited about the role but based on the increased commute time/transportation costs compared to the discussed job you would like an increase in pay.
bamhand fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 14:46
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Xinlum posted:So I interviewed for a store manager position. I was called today and offered an executive assistant position, reporting directly to the VP and handling the companies HR and facilities management. When I got the offer, the pay is the same we had discussed for the store manager position. Do not take this job unless you can move and/or get enough additional comp to move. Nothing is worth a 90 minute commute, absolutely nothing. e: since this is the negotiation thread, I'll follow up with "compare the cost of living and ask for relative comp based on that." Seriously do not multiply your commute by 18 you will hate everything Not a Children fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 15:02
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Wait, is it one way or round trip? 90 minute round trip is pretty reasonable. Don't do it if it's one way.
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Aug 7, 2019 15:06
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bamhand posted:Wait, is it one way or round trip? 90 minute round trip is pretty reasonable. Don't do it if it's one way. Both suck. Especially going from 5 min. My requirement is under 20 min bike ride.
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Aug 7, 2019 15:23
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I'm coming back to reiterate once more that you absolutely should not take on that commute. Your work day goes from effectively 8.25 hours to 11 hours. That's unpaid time - you're effectively slashing your hourly wage by 25% to sit in your boring-rear end car, racking up gas and maintenance costs, doing one of the most dangerous activities there is, for close to 20% of your waking hours
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Aug 7, 2019 15:41
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spwrozek posted:Both suck. Especially going from 5 min. 45 minutes is extremely normal for any kind of urban area. Sure you can have your specific preferences but for most people that would eliminate >70% of their job opportunities.
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Aug 7, 2019 16:16
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I did a 90minute commute in to Boston by train when I lived up there. I wouldn’t do it again, but I got a lot of reading done and if it’s a resume booster, it’s not the worst thing in the world. If it’s by car, ask for more money and then move closer.
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Aug 7, 2019 19:03
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bamhand posted:45 minutes is extremely normal for any kind of urban area. Sure you can have your specific preferences but for most people that would eliminate >70% of their job opportunities. Yeah, people do it but not exactly fun or good. People choose to commute long distances by car. They put their priorities on whatever that other stuff is.
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Aug 7, 2019 19:03
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Yeah it would be 90 minutes each way. It pays the same as my current job but with no overtime, which is what I want. I currently work 50 to 60 hours every week, haven't had a Friday or Saturday off in over a year (work 10am to 12am), so a job with regular Monday to Friday office hours is like a huge improvement to my work life balance. Last summer I commuted 2 hours each way for 6 weeks so I know I can do it, just not happy about it. I am planning on sending this email, let me know how it sounds. Hello VPNAME, I am very excited about this opportunity, but I would like to ask you a question. This position would be a large increase to my daily commute, especially compared to the management position I originally interviewed for. Would you be willing to negotiate an increase in pay or a possible relocation package? Thank You, NAME
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Aug 7, 2019 21:08
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I know I'm gonna start sounding like a broken record here, but stomaching something for 6 weeks is completely different from doing it for the forseeable future. Hell, I literally did that commute for 2 months when I was starting my current job as a show of good faith (and to acquaint myself with my team in a different office). Anyway, I redrafted your email for you: Xinlum posted:
Keep in mind I stitched that together in like 2 minutes and I'd probably labor over it a bit more before hitting send. Feel free to modify as you please. I take zero responsibility for the results if you decide to use my language. If you're okay with the salary maybe take the bit about COL out but if you're gonna negotiate you might as well not take half-measures.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:55
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90 minutes each way is a hard no unless you're doing that on the train, in which case enjoy your new 75-100 book a year habit.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:23
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I'm in kind of in a frustrating spot right now. I'm a senior software engineer on a small team at a medium-sized company (rapidly growing company out of startup phase). The team has fluctuated but at the start of this story, it's a team of 4, including one member who was in a tech lead/developer role - not our boss, but held some authority regarding technical decisions and guidance of the team, as well as acting as the face/point of contact of the team to the rest of the company. He left the company last October, and we all reported to the VP of Technology in the company. After the prior tech lead left, I was asked to step into that role and I accepted. Against my better judgment, I accepted it without a raise in pay, but I was unsure if I'd like the role and realistically considered I might find myself stepping back down to strictly individual contributor status. However, I ended up liking it a lot, and got a 4% raise at my review in February - a raise equal to the base raise for anyone in Engineering who got an "exceeds expectations" rating in their review (or so I was told). This is effectively a raise for good performance in my prior individual contributor role with no increase for my expanded responsibilities and skills gained as tech lead. My then-boss (the VP) said that midyear reviews were an opportunity to get a salary adjustment that reflected those responsibilities and skills. In March, we hired a team manager, so the VP is no longer my boss, this relatively-newly-hired manager is. We also hired one other developer that works on the same codebase I do, but lost an employee on the other codebase my team works on. I'd call us understaffed (we have a req open for the other codebase). Midyear reviews have rolled around (you know, the middle of the year, mid-August) and when I had an impromptu 1:1 with the VP a few weeks ago, he was very wishy-washy about being able to get me anything when I brought it up. I brought it up in a 1:1 with my new boss and he said there had been no discussions between him and the VP (who is his boss) about a salary adjustment. I politely indicated that it would be "an extremely negative effect on my workplace satisfaction" if there was no pay adjustment to reflect my increased responsibilities, to which he replied "salaries are above my pay grade" (apparently he doesn't decide - not sure if I believe he has no input). No numbers have been discussed. Oh, we also got a shitload of funding about 2 months ago. I'm thinking I'm about to get screwed here - either the VP fed me a line of bullshit at the start of the year, or he didn't but I lost the advocacy of someone who has visibility on my impact for a pay increase. Furthermore, it's otherwise a really good company to work at, I love the people, and I'm paid decently (but there's a severe shortage of my skills in the area - we've had some hiring woes getting fully staffed up) but financial security isn't provided by back-slaps and high fives. More than anything I'm prepared to get really pissed at the company for jerking me around, and myself for not making a fuss about it 8 months ago. As a result I've been kind of passively looking around for the past few months and have a couple promising balls in the air right now, including one that would be a 33% raise on what I'm paid now at what (so far) seems like an interesting company to work for, with some semi-management work thrown in for good measure, which is new to me. I feel like what turned into a passive search to get a gently caress-you offer turned into an actual search at some point and I'm kind of at a loss for what to do. This was my story thanks for listening, any critique would be welcome, as I haven't really played hardball on any of this poo poo before. Great thread and thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:03
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This is exactly like 99% of the posts in this thread. Your current company doesn't respect you and underpays you. Go to a company that doesn't. Seems like you have an offer so you're like 99% of the way there.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:14
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You're in a super standard position where you've worked a leadership role for a way-too-small salary for a while, boosting your resume in the process, and your next step is to move on to a new employer to get your salary where it belongs. They're not going to give you a significant raise, not now, not ever. Your play is to downshift into super passive Chill Mode at work while devoting most of your time and energy into finding your next job.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:15
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drat. Sorry to be repetitive, fwiw I read like the last 10 pages over so over the last few days.
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Aug 8, 2019 01:18
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Bamhand is exaggerating a bit on his percentages, but it is a reoccurring theme in this thread. I wouldn't feel bad about posting since every situation is a bit unique on the surface and it's pretty illogical when you step back and look at it as an employee. Why would an employer want to lose and employee they already know and like and instead be faced with trying to find someone in a hot market who will likely not be as good as you and likely demand more money? It doesn't make sense, but an absolutely mind boggling number of employers are essentially making that decision.
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Aug 8, 2019 02:49
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stuffed crust punk posted:drat. Sorry to be repetitive, fwiw I read like the last 10 pages over so over the last few days. I'm gonna be walking a fine line between being a dick and trying to be helpful: how did you read the last 10 pages and still need to ask? What do you think made your situation distinct so that you'd get any advice other than "They're loving you, get another job."? BeastOfExmoor posted:Bamhand is exaggerating a bit on his percentages, but it is a reoccurring theme in this thread. I wouldn't feel bad about posting since every situation is a bit unique on the surface and it's pretty illogical when you step back and look at it as an employee. Why would an employer want to lose and employee they already know and like and instead be faced with trying to find someone in a hot market who will likely not be as good as you and likely demand more money? It doesn't make sense, but an absolutely mind boggling number of employers are essentially making that decision. I maybe am overgeneralizing Software Development to business writ large, but pretty much noone pro-actively prevents potential problems and only reacts to materialized problems. Someone saying they don't like how much they get paid is a potential problem. Someone quitting is a materialized problem. If you've been in a (bad) management position long enough most of your employees will grumble about how much they get paid, only a minority of them will actually get up and do something about it, so doing nothing is literally playing the odds. If you're playing the odds as an employer, you win.
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Aug 8, 2019 16:03
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I tried to post a couple hours ago and the forums were hosed, but it was basically exactly what Dwight just posted. Management is making the smart play ignoring employees who ask for more money. 90% of the time when you say no (or most commonly, string them along with vague suggestions of raises in the indeterminate future) they don't actually leave for years. The value of years' worth of way-under-market-salary work you get from the 90% of people too afraid of change to go get a better job far outweighs the drawbacks of the 10% who immediately turn in their two weeks and leave you scrambling. Plus, though management sometimes (though not as often as you think) is just dumb*, even half-smart management knows who the dramatically underpaid people are. They maintain Flight Risk lists, and as soon as you the dramatically underpaid employee ask for a raise your name goes on it. Your boss is probably required by his boss to maintain a plan for what to do when, eventually, the day comes that you hand in your two weeks. Management knows what they're doing, and why. They've run the numbers. You should run the numbers too, and go get a better job. * If you're in low-level management then your boss is probably dumb, but their boss very likely is not.
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Aug 8, 2019 16:14
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To add to that - if they think that paying you now and planning for 6 month contingency is cheaper than replacing you now, you’ll get that raise when you ask for it. The fact you didn’t tells you what they think. Either way you’re a flight risk and you won’t make market value without getting a new job. You don’t even know what market value is if you’re not looking.
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Aug 8, 2019 16:30
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I'm gonna be walking a fine line between being a dick and trying to be helpful: how did you read the last 10 pages and still need to ask? What do you think made your situation distinct so that you'd get any advice other than "They're loving you, get another job."? I guess I just wanted to piss you off personally
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Aug 8, 2019 17:37
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Sometimes people just need someone to ask and confirm what they think and how they feel. Relax people.
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Aug 8, 2019 17:43
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It’s actually kind of great to see someone pop up and ask what they should do, be told they should look for a new job, and say “yeah you’re right I should look for a new job”. Later they can be a success story. The alternative is that they decide to dig deeper to explain why they are a special snowflake.
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Aug 8, 2019 17:46
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stuffed crust punk posted:I guess I just wanted to piss you off personally
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Aug 8, 2019 19:01
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quote:I'm gonna be walking a fine line between being a dick and trying to be helpful: how did you read the last 10 pages and still not realize Dwight is crustier than a stuffed crust punk? Fixed. Jordan7hm posted:It’s actually kind of great to see someone pop up and ask what they should do, be told they should look for a new job, and say “yeah you’re right I should look for a new job”. Later they can be a success story. I don't recall if I ever even posted my own story in here, but when I found this thread a few months ago it quickly solidified my position that I just needed to get a new job. Just got off the phone with a recruiter who should be giving me a number this afternoon. The guy I had been working with is apparently out this week, and this guy seemed a bit more savvy. Asked me for a number, I told him the highest number his colleague had given me (107% increase to my current base salary + some where aroung 75% of my current salary as signing bonus and RSU's for a publicly traded company). He asked me for my minimum which I deferred on saying I'd really have to look at the whole package if the offer was much under that. Hopefully I played this right. I'm sure someone will tell me I could've played hardball to try to up the numbers a bit, but if someone wants to pay me way over twice what I make now to go do a job I really want to do working with people who I've worked with before and like I'm just going to consider that a win. We'll see what they come back with...
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Aug 8, 2019 22:02
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:I'm gonna be walking a fine line between being a dick and trying to be helpful: how did you read the last 10 pages and still need to ask? What do you think made your situation distinct so that you'd get any advice other than "They're loving you, get another job."? Calm down, gramps.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:10
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Hey this thread helped me put words to feelings and look for another job. Just typing it all out helped. I knew I was on a sinking ship, just needed a hard shove. Anyway I might be a success story? Been talking to a company about jumping ship. They'd create a new position for me, trying to expand their services offered around a skillset that's very niche. While getting that going, I already know how to do what they do and I can support their existing projects. Final sitdown went great. Until we got to comp. They were thinking way low, and I had to tell them they weren't in my ballpark. They cut me a check for significantly more than my travel expenses, which I took to mean "sorry we wasted your time." Bossman drove me back to the airport mumbling that he had some thinking to do. I got a very good* offer from them this week, except: 1) For the time being I'd work from home, and travel to their office as-needed. After 6-12 months they expect me to open a new office in the western US, location TBD, selected by me with some stipulations (distance from major international airport, potential client base, etc). Kind of hard to negotiate a salary when you don't know the COL. The offer would be a good bump in my COL area, but they aren't interested in an office here. I'm in a relatively low COL area compared to the locations they have in mind. It would be a good salary in 2/4 of the places we've been discussing. 2) Their regular insurance carrier doesn't cover my current area. Until I move, I'd have to go Exchange or to a Blue Cross PPO plan. My wife is in the middle of a round of surgical procedures that will run several months. Possible when moving to new location I can get in their network. Their plan is significantly better. 3) The title irritates me. Normally I don't care about titles. I'm VP of Garbagemen right now and know it is Jack poo poo. But I had that title years ago, it is not normal for our industry and just confuses clients. I'll explain that to them. Thinking to just ask for a generic "garbageman" title rather than the weird "management but not an officer or principal" title they have on the offer letter. Thinking for (1) I just tell them I understand that rate is for my time working from home / their office, and want it in writing that we'll review relocation and COL adjustments based on final location. Better ideas? For (2) I'm not sure what to do. It is a personal problem but affects my willingness to jump immediately. The owner is a friend, knows the wife's situation, and I know he's been scrambling because he had his agent call me to figure out "what the hell we have to do to make this work." Under new insurance I'd have to start meeting deductible and OOP limits again, looking at $15k (easy) in OOP by end of year. I have to crunch some numbers but it might be cheaper to get COBRA through current employer at least through the end of the calendar year when it would reset. Insurance is something I have a weak understanding of so any advice would be welcome. I don't know if you can get COBRA if there is something available to you through another employer.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:57
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Just got a call back from compensation. They upped the base salary to 120% over my current base salary and the first year signing bonus is another 60% of my current salary.  Knowing this company, I'm not sure things would've worked out that differently, but I'm 100% confident that I never would've been able to take a relaxed tone and defer on the whole thing and let them keep dropping numbers. Thanks goons!
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Aug 8, 2019 23:05
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BeastOfExmoor posted:Just got a call back from compensation. They upped the base salary to 120% over my current base salary and the first year signing bonus is another 60% of my current salary. This is incredible, way to go!
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Aug 8, 2019 23:07
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