|
Gatts posted:Nationalism and fascist stuff feels like it’s been on the rise globally. It must've been really shocking to wake up from your 7-year coma.
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 21:07 |
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:Oh wow. Maybe the Kerala model isn't good afterall. It is. The "oh no, remittances!!" line is generally brought up by trashbags opposed to even minimal amounts of government welfare. Kerala has benefited from remittances and used it to good ends.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:24
|
|
|
mila kunis posted:It is. The "oh no, remittances!!" line is generally brought up by trashbags opposed to even minimal amounts of government welfare. Kerala has benefited from remittances and used it to good ends. But doesn't like half of people's money come from remittance though?
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:27
|
|
|
Gatts posted:Peeps from Pakistan are expecting ethnic cleansing to eventually commence or people removed from homes and sent away. When you say ethnic cleansing you mean literally killing people? Or just importing so many Hindus that everyone else becomes a minority? That seems nuts to me, but maybe India has just given up on democracy and has fully embraced fascism. You wouldn't even technically have to move people elsewhere, if you did it right, to disempower them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:31
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:But doesn't like half of people's money come from remittance though? this is my favorite thing on SA, endlessly repeating the same middlebrow contrarian take as a question/rumor because the answer was a page or two ago and who ever reads or remembers a page back?
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:31
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:That seems nuts to me, but maybe India has just given up on democracy and has fully embraced fascism. India just elected the BJP in a landslide despite them presiding over one of the highest unemployment rates in decades.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:42
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:When you say ethnic cleansing you mean literally killing people? Or just importing so many Hindus that everyone else becomes a minority? That seems nuts to me, but maybe India has just given up on democracy and has fully embraced fascism. You wouldn't even technically have to move people elsewhere, if you did it right, to disempower them. There’s a lot of bad blood and history. When Pakistan and India first segregated along religious lines Pakistani fanatics brutally murdered trains of people who were trying to escape conflict. People there fear that sort of reprisal and I have no confidence in that region to not have things escalate badly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:47
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:It must've been really shocking to wake up from your 7-year coma. Lol I’ll take that. For America this has been the road since Reagan.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:48
|
|
|
Gatts posted:There’s a lot of bad blood and history. When Pakistan and India first segregated along religious lines Pakistani fanatics brutally murdered trains of people who were trying to escape conflict. Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims all did the same.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:52
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:When you say ethnic cleansing you mean literally killing people? Or just importing so many Hindus that everyone else becomes a minority? That seems nuts to me, but maybe India has just given up on democracy and has fully embraced fascism. You wouldn't even technically have to move people elsewhere, if you did it right, to disempower them. Mass rape has been Indian policy in Kashmir for decades, and they just decided the place wasn't enough of an authoritarian nightmare and they need to crack down harder. Odds are this will get incredibly bad.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
StabbinHobo posted:this is my favorite thing on SA, endlessly repeating the same middlebrow contrarian take as a question/rumor because the answer was a page or two ago and who ever reads or remembers a page back? That's not my intention. It just seems that it would be extremely easy to have the most, or one of the most, highly developed states if nearly half of people's money come from outside of it. Unless I'm reading it wrong.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 19:07
|
|
|
While my familial ties are Afghan, the local Jamatkhana is mostly Kashmiri's and it doesn't particularly matter what tensions there are between them and Sunni's because Hindutva freaks don't make careful distinctions like that. If anything people feel they're probably the first target because no one really gives a poo poo about them except for our useless Trump-Khan.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 19:09
|
|
|
stupid loving forums from 2002 ate my effortpost i think this is a security operations split. fewer people live in ladakh than a random mumbai neighborhood, and the border is sparsely guarded with china. imo ladakh is just a china buffer zone and now military command can focus on operations in kashmir. no indian revanchist is going to move to a barren grassy hill at 13,000 feet
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 20:14
|
|
|
Zurakara posted:While my familial ties are Afghan, the local Jamatkhana is mostly Kashmiri's and it doesn't particularly matter what tensions there are between them and Sunni's because Hindutva freaks don't make careful distinctions like that. If anything people feel they're probably the first target because no one really gives a poo poo about them except for our useless Trump-Khan. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to over-emphasize the differences. It's just that Modi is probably not aiming to single out Ladakh for greater repression, and the move to separate the area is probably driven by some other interest. More likely he's throwing a bone to local regionalists, but I don't know enough about the context to really understand what is going on. Whatever is going to happen I think will be focused on the Kashmir valley first and foremost. Most people in Ladakh are more culturally related to Tibetans than Kashmiris, and there's a fair bit of political space between the communities. Messing around in the region doesn't really accomplish anything for Modi and after Muslims the largest religious group is Buddhists, who I don't think would be all that interested in radical Hindutva policies.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 20:23
|
|
|
imo the long-term inhabitants of ladakh do not factor into any political or strategic consideration. their numbers and political importance are pretty close to the amish in the US. an extreme minority with low political participation that you may see have a majority in a county or two.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:05
|
|
|
So they're swing voters hugely important in their close-margin region? (That's a thing about the Amish, they vote in numbers and don't have much party loyalty...)
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:10
|
|
|
Hamelekim posted:When you say ethnic cleansing you mean literally killing people? Or just importing so many Hindus that everyone else becomes a minority? That seems nuts to me, but maybe India has just given up on democracy and has fully embraced fascism. You wouldn't even technically have to move people elsewhere, if you did it right, to disempower them. Contrary to popular belief killing is not the sole way to commit genocide, it's just overwhelmingly the most popular way to do it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:19
|
|
|
I could see it becoming kinda like Ogaden myself. Brute resource extraction, kill tons of people, but not actually an out and out ethnic cleansing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:42
|
|
|
Spacewolf posted:So they're swing voters hugely important in their close-margin region? i'm wrong then! i didn't know amish voted 
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:50
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:Contrary to popular belief killing is not the sole way to commit genocide, it's just overwhelmingly the most popular way to do it. I thought forcibly moving people was ethnic cleansing not genocide. But then again contrary to popular belief semantics is not the way to decide what is evil.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 21:54
|
|
|
Genocide also is defined as eradicating a culture. For example up to the 1980s Canada would take a First Nations Child and if there was a White family and a First Nations family, both qualified to adopt the kid, they'd decide to give it to the White family with the intended goal to reduce or eliminate First Nations culture. They apologized for this, in like 1997.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 22:44
|
|
|
And “starlight tours” kept happening, and let’s not pretend they were isolated https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon_freezing_deaths
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 22:47
|
|
|
Not to be that guy, but I think these UN bullet points are a pretty good outline for what genocide is, without purposefully restricting it and hoisting it out of reach of any given scenario, and not watering it down either:Article II of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide posted:... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 22:51
|
|
|
Gatts posted:Genocide also is defined as eradicating a culture. For example up to the 1980s Canada would take a First Nations Child and if there was a White family and a First Nations family, both qualified to adopt the kid, they'd decide to give it to the White family with the intended goal to reduce or eliminate First Nations culture. They switched to a more efficient method of killing indigenous women.
|
|
#
?
Aug 7, 2019 22:57
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:Contrary to popular belief killing is not the sole way to commit genocide, it's just overwhelmingly the most popular way to do it. Many non-lethal genocide methods devolve into killing though, which may or may not be intentional. It's one of those ways genocides try to maintain plausible deniability, because sometimes straight-up murder is just too hard of a sell. The holocaust and Armenian genocide portrayed themselves as mass-relocation before getting into direct murder. Mercrom posted:I thought forcibly moving people was ethnic cleansing not genocide. But then again contrary to popular belief semantics is not the way to decide what is evil. For example, mass forced movement tends to be a total nightmare even before you start getting into intentional elimination. When you force people to move en masse without caring about their wellbeing, not enough resources will be provided to sustain them, and it's not like the people being forcibly moved in a situation they have no control over will be able to provide for themselves. It applied during the Trail of Tears, it applies now with the immigrant camps.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 05:27
|
|
|
punk rebel ecks posted:That's not my intention. It just seems that it would be extremely easy to have the most, or one of the most, highly developed states if nearly half of people's money come from outside of it. Unless I'm reading it wrong. it doesn't work that way - Kerala is still desperately poor, well below middle income trap levels of output per capita. It can receive relatively large flows from remittances because being a construction worker in a super-rich petrostate earns much more than being a construction worker in South India, despite the same labour product. That wedge drives the massive remittance income, despite only a few % of the labour force being diaspora labour. If Kerala were a highly developed state, it would not have such a large wedge. of course, we know why the super-rich petrostate is super-rich whether Kerala has disposed of the remittances in a Good way consistent with with the golden path to fully automated gay space communism etc. - well, the core way to think about remittances is that remittances are remitted to households, i.e., they are privately held. Unlike oil the question of whether the commonweal should nationalize or distribute the windfall directly does not arise. Remittances are by nature private wealth. The inflow of remittances fuels rising household and ethnic inequalities, but does allow the state to obtain greater revenues through consumption taxes than would otherwise be available, and reduces the extent of claims on the state fisc to begin with. The "Keralese model of development" is to spend the windfall revenue on public consumption (i.e., healthcare and social spending), that mitigates the rising household and ethnic inequalities (which still rise, albeit less than what they would have otherwise). But it is obviously not a transferable model of development; it is the oil wealth of Kuwait making itself felt in Kerala. A bedroom community newly-linked to a major metropolis will see a revenue boom that will pay for a new school and a new clinic, and on some level that's better than spending it on a twenty foot high statue of the mayor, but it's not something that the poorer state in the dynamic can opt to do. Kuwait, not Kerala, decides who and how many foreign workers it would like. ronya fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Aug 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 16:57
|
|
|
MiddleOne posted:Contrary to popular belief killing is not the sole way to commit genocide, it's just overwhelmingly the most popular way to do it. I asked a friend about this. He has a PhD in genocide studies and teaches university level courses on genocide for a living. On the destruction of culture, he said if it lead to the destruction of the people, not just the culture, then it would be considered genocide. The law is very specific in regards to Article 2 of the Genocide Convention. Basically something like the rural schools that native children were sent to wouldn't technically be genocide, unless the intent was to destroy the group in whole or part. Not just the culture but physical destruction.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
To me that seems a little too nuanced though. As an example to why I’d point to the situation in Xinjiang with the Uygurs. The state is very much policing what languages Uygur speak, forcing the children into Han Chinese schools and using them to narc on their own parents and then disappear and scrutinize Uygurs speaking their own language at home. Though brutal it hasn’t crossed the threshold into systematized murder yet I can’t see how this doesn’t count as a very eliminationist posture towards Uygur culture. How would we describe that if not a genocide? Ethnic cleansing seems closer semantically but in usage that’s often times just a synonym/euphemism for genocide.
Yiggy fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Aug 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 23:09
|
|
|
Yiggy posted:To me that seems a little too nuanced though. As an example to why I’d point to the situation in Shenxiang with the Uighurs. The state is very much policing what languages Uighurs speaks, forcing the children into Han Chinese schools and using them to narc on their own parents and then disappear and scrutinize Uighurs speaking their own language at home. Though brutal it hasn’t crossed the threshold into systematized murder yet I can’t see how this doesn’t count as a very eliminationist posture towards Uighur culture. How would we describe that if not a genocide? Ethnic cleansing seems closer semantically but in usage that’s often times just a synonym/euphemism for genocide. I am no expert, hence why I spoke to my friend. But it sounds like when dealing with genocide, specialists like him are really focused on what the law says, and there isn't much wiggle room, it is very specific for a reason. It could get very bad, and even lead to many deaths. But if it doesn't meet the exact criteria under international law you couldn't declare it genocide. So whether or not genocide is is occurring or will occur in Kashmir remains to be seen. Regardless what is and will happen there isn't morally good.
|
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 23:16
|
|
|
Destruction of culture almost always leads to the ongoing destruction of the people though, its one of the reasonshy african americans, other ex-slave populations, and indigenous peoples who have gone through the meatgrinder that is colonization have waaaay more health problems then whites, as well as a higher rate of suicide. At what point in the process do you go "well this is genocide" then? The first death? The hundredth? Actually how the hell are they defining "the people" because that raises a million different question. P.S its likely very specific so countries can cover their own rear end. Genocide should 100% not solely be looked at as a legal term. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Aug 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 8, 2019 23:48
|
|
|
Yiggy posted:To me that seems a little too nuanced though. As an example to why I’d point to the situation in Shenxiang with the Uighurs. The state is very much policing what languages Uighurs speaks, forcing the children into Han Chinese schools and using them to narc on their own parents and then disappear and scrutinize Uighurs speaking their own language at home. Though brutal it hasn’t crossed the threshold into systematized murder yet I can’t see how this doesn’t count as a very eliminationist posture towards Uighur culture. How would we describe that if not a genocide? Ethnic cleansing seems closer semantically but in usage that’s often times just a synonym/euphemism for genocide. If you are widening the definition of genocide, then you have to invent a new word to describe the actually killing people kind of genocide. Whay happens with Uyghurs is on par with what early US government did to the native indians. I am okay with calling just below genocide I m not going to tell you how to use a word, but you dont get to define a word either. Language is alive and slowly changing all the time. tino fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Aug 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 00:20
|
|
|
tino posted:If you are widening the definition of genocide, then you have to invent a new word to describe the actually killing people kind of genocide. That's called Cultural Genocide. And that is actually the definition of what he's talking about, although ethnocide is often the preferred word. quote:It involves the eradication and destruction of cultural artifacts, such as books, artworks, and structures, and the suppression of cultural activities that do not conform to the destroyer's notion of what is appropriate. Motives may include religious ones (e.g., iconoclasm), as part of a campaign of ethnic cleansing in order to remove the evidence of a people from a specific locale or history, as part of an effort to implement a Year Zero, in which the past and its associated culture is deleted and history is "reset", the suppression of an indigenous culture by invaders and colonisers, along with many other potential reasons. Genocide is not strictly death camps. It can be the elimination of a culture (like what the Chinese are doing, and what the US and Canadians have done before). the Holocaust did not start with death camps, but it was always genocide, even in the beginning. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Aug 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 00:22
|
|
|
I feel like the 'cide' bit means it should mainly involve killing people. We have ethnic cleansing for everything else.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 00:34
|
|
|
Pakistan stops Samjhauta Express Samjhauta is the main cross-border rail service. Pakistan has also banned the viewing of Indian films. Pakistan has also broken off talks with Indian on consular access to Kulbhushan Jadhav. A former Indian navy officer Pakistan arrested for allegedly spying. https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1159498510137356289?s=19 Modi has given a speech about the situation in J&K and future plans and posted some excerpts in English on Twitter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 00:57
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I feel like the 'cide' bit means it should mainly involve killing people. We have ethnic cleansing for everything else. Ethnic cleansing and Genocide are so incredibly close, and its pretty rare for ethnic cleansing to NOT involve killing, either indirectly or directly.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 01:04
|
|
|
CommieGIR posted:
CCP is not trying to eliminate the Uyghurs culture (you can't if Uyghurs are not intermixing with other ethnic groups), CCP is trying to eliminate the kind of religion (Sunni Muslim) that confirm to a foreign religious authority. CCP is fine if Uyghurs fork their sect of Islam and have their own high religious figure reside in the country which CCP can control. Kind of like how Henvy VIII split from Catholicism and roll his own Church of England.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 01:44
|
|
|
Telsa Cola posted:Destruction of culture almost always leads to the ongoing destruction of the people though, its one of the reasonshy african americans, other ex-slave populations, and indigenous peoples who have gone through the meatgrinder that is colonization have waaaay more health problems then whites, as well as a higher rate of suicide. Genocide gets used a lot because it seems to have maximum moral force in our society: genocide is The Worst. Well, ok, and I don't think we're interested in ranking these things, but something can be very very bad without being genocide. Even if we don't use any of the suggested terms and just talk about the mass relocation of people by force, the purposeful destruction of culture, intentionally wiping out a language, and the like. Calling these acts genocide doesn't make them worse; they're bad for what they are. Calling them genocide can have the effect of diluting the meaning of the word genocide, which I for one will try and avoid.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 01:55
|
|
|
tino posted:CCP is not trying to eliminate the Uyghurs culture https://psmag.com/ideas/inside-a-uyghur-bookshop-in-istanbul quote:"Some residents there have a limited command of the country's common language and a limited sense and knowledge of the law," said Zakir, who is of Uyghur descent. "[The program's] purpose is to get rid of the environment and soil that breeds terrorism and religious extremism." Seems about a bit more than Islam and trying to discourage a particular sect.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 02:03
|
|
|
tino posted:CCP is not trying to eliminate the Uyghurs culture (you can't if Uyghurs are not intermixing with other ethnic groups), CCP is trying to eliminate the kind of religion (Sunni Muslim) that confirm to a foreign religious authority. CCP is fine if Uyghurs fork their sect of Islam and have their own high religious figure reside in the country which CCP can control. Kind of like how Henvy VIII split from Catholicism and roll his own Church of England. Uhhhh.....this isn't what is happening at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_re-education_camps The CCP views ANY Muslims as a terrorist threat, so they are rounding them up to force them to renounce being Muslim. This is EXACTLY Ethnic Genocide: Convert or Die. quote:On 24 October 2018, the BBC released the details of an extensive investigation into China's hidden concentration camps and the extent to which the People's Republic goes to maintain what it calls "correct thought".[31] US-based journals like the Foreign Policy Journal and Center for World Indigenous Studies have labeled these policies as "cultural genocide".[32][33] Some parties refer to these camps as "concentration camps".[16][7][34][35][6] The Times of Israel wrote a piece comparing these vocational camps to the U.S. Japanese-American concentration camps during World War II as well as the British Palestine internment camps for Jews.[36][37] The European Union and Turkey were invited to visit part of Xinjiang by China in order to examine the situation themselves.[38][39] The EU initially declined, due to worries that the tour might be “choreographed” by the Chinese government, but it was open to visit Xinjiang at a later date I think its safe to say you need to stop nitpicking over ethnic cleansing and genocide when you can't even identify obvious events that are such things. quote:In January 2018, Abdurahman Hasan, a Uyghur businessman from Kashgar, was interviewed by BBC News in Turkey and asked the Chinese government to shoot his 68-year-old mother and 22-year-old wife after learning of the inhuman torture conducted in one of the camps in Kashgar.[73] Kayrat Samarkand, a Kazakh citizen who migrated from Xinjiang, was detained in one of the "re-education camps" in the region for three months for visiting neighboring Kazakhstan. On 15 February 2018, Kazakh Foreign Minister Kairat Abdrakhmanov sent a diplomatic note to the Chinese Foreign Ministry, the same day as Kayrat Samarkand was freed from custody.[148] After his release, Samarkand shared his distressing experience and claimed that he faced endless brainwashing and humiliation, and that he was forced to study communist propaganda for hours every day and chant slogans giving thanks and wishing for a long life to Xi Jinping, current General Secretary of the Communist Party of China.[149] I'm sure they'll stop TORTURING PEOPLE when they are nice, safe, non-terrorist Muslims 
CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 02:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 12, 2024 21:07 |
|
|
Yiggy posted:https://psmag.com/ideas/inside-a-uyghur-bookshop-in-istanbul You can't change the culture and way of life by labor/forced education camps. And the CCP know that because they had done it before in the 60s to the "Rightist". Most of the ruling CCP cadres are sons of those oppressed rightist, including Xi Jinping. Whatever they are trying to do with the vocational camp, the goal is not " changing their culture." I think the goal is closer to the Japanese American internment camp.
|
|
#
?
Aug 9, 2019 02:21
|
|