Pakistan vs India: I can see the future and it is a bright flash

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Pakistan vs India: I can see the future and it is a bright flash

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Gatts: Jan 2, 2001; Goodnight Moon; Nap Ghost

Climate change or Nuclear Armageddon?

Put in your bets ladies and gentlemen! For me, who knew nuclear Armageddon would happen first and so quickly? Perhaps the fallout will accelerate climate change.

Something may or may not have happened, it could have been terrorism or a skirmish with military/militia, India is having elections and Modi was losing so he decided to make a poo poo of it and bomb Pakistan to stir up anger and votes for him/his party. Both sides have plenty of douchebags who don't care about gently caress all except their own pockets and appetites.

My relatives who live in Pakistan, Lahore, are giving me videos of the news that Pakistan is retaliating against Indian Forces and firing on them. Things are heating up. Could they go back down? Probably after Indian elections. But right now the atmosphere is tense. There are people on the ground in Pakistan with the attitude of "gently caress it. Bring it. Let's experience nuclear war and see what it's about. Exciting times!" and the reason is cause a lot of people have gently caress all to live for and there isn't exactly a great future plus being on the weaker end of things so they're like, if we die, we die, can't do much about it, let's go whole hog.

India and Pakistan have had a rough history since Pakistan separated and formed mostly along religious lines and the main contested area is Kashmir. There is a river or such where India gets the majority share of water and Pakistan less but is critical for the area. It has been rife with conflict. Pakistan harbors terrorists or militia that are radicalized and India has taken a dump with leadership that is rear end backwards and even their own scientific community is like "WTF you smokin? 5,000 years ago India did not have airplanes you gently caress stop this poo poo." and they building the largest statue of some dude while their people starve and are poor. The places suck to live, people are ignorant, and life is cheap. I've been there. Pakistan for the first time has a leadership in Imran Khan that may give some relief from corrupt politicians that rape the country and doesn't require the military to step in and save a failed state and it gets messed up by Modi's desperate election bid.

Pakistan vows retaliation after Indian airstrikes, as hostilities rise between nuclear powers
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/26/india/india-pakistan-line-of-control-incursion-intl/index.html

But in happier times have Mark Wiens travel through Pakistan to enjoy good food and hopefully not get the runs to give you a picture of Pakistan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mIzRYh8jGA

What's gonna happen?

# ? Feb 27, 2019 05:11

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# ? May 9, 2024 15:58

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Um. What's the backstory on the 5,000 year old aircraft...?

# ? Feb 27, 2019 07:36

dr.gigolo: May 9, 2006

unfortunately probably nothing good.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 07:40

frankee: Dec 29, 2017

Tree Bucket posted:

Um. What's the backstory on the 5,000 year old aircraft...?

Indian flying palaces and chariots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vimana

# ? Feb 27, 2019 07:50

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

To quote DEFCON, now at Level 4:

quote:

...If hostilities break out, it is likely to be limited. In the event of a nuclear conflict, it will not involve the United States.

At this time, The DEFCON Warning System feels it is prudent for the public to make itself more aware of the events occurring between India and Pakistan in the unlikely event that escalation continues. At all times, citizens are urges to learn what steps to take in the event of a nuclear conflict.

We will continue to monitor the situation...

# ? Feb 27, 2019 07:50

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

2 indian planes shot out of the sky by pakistan air force

# ? Feb 27, 2019 08:13

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

I look forward to reading brown mose's analysis on the IADF system which shot them down

# ? Feb 27, 2019 08:28

Morbus: May 18, 2004

Tree Bucket posted:

Um. What's the backstory on the 5,000 year old aircraft...?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...demon-had-airpl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Indian_Science_Congress_ancient_aircraft_controversy

# ? Feb 27, 2019 08:30

Gatts: Jan 2, 2001; Goodnight Moon; Nap Ghost

Flights to Pakistan from the US to have been suspended

# ? Feb 27, 2019 13:09

Flayer: Sep 13, 2003; by Fluffdaddy; Buglord

Does the captured Indian pilot have any precedence in these border skirmishes between Pakistan and India? I feel like if Pakistan holds on to the pilot for an extended period of time it will keep this thing going on and on.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 13:23

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

Based on todays news, India is getting themselves owned.

There is no agreement on how many jets are down yet.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 14:30

biglads: Feb 21, 2007; I could've gone to Blatherwycke

tino posted:

Based on todays news, India is getting themselves owned.

There is no agreement on how many jets are down yet.

Pakistan claim two shot down (India admits it lost one MiG-21) while India has claimed one downed Pakistani aircraft which has been denied by Pakistan. At least, that's what it was a couple of hours ago.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 17:36

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

https://twitter.com/DEFCONWSALERTS/status/1100748005005639680

# ? Feb 27, 2019 17:38

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Grouchio posted:

https://twitter.com/DEFCONWSALERTS/status/1100748005005639680

https://twitter.com/DEFCONWSALERTS/status/1100798542275379203

# ? Feb 27, 2019 17:54

Plastic_Gargoyle: Aug 3, 2007

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=222337

Data on the MiG-21 that was shot down.

Note that even after the Bison upgrade the MiG-21 doesn't have the best safety record in Indian service, though I don't know if it has ever been determined why.

Edit: it was also reported yesterday that the Pakistani CAA has ordered the country's airspace closed.

Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Feb 27, 2019

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:07

biglads: Feb 21, 2007; I could've gone to Blatherwycke

Plastic_Gargoyle posted:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=222337

Data on the MiG-21 that was shot down.

Note that even after the Bison upgrade the MiG-21 doesn't have the best safety record in Indian service, though I don't know if it has ever been determined why.

Edit: it was also reported yesterday that the Pakistani CAA has ordered the country's airspace closed.

I understand the Indians had agreed the purchase of a load of Rafales from France but the procurement process is accused of being riddled with corruption and the tender may have to be re-opened. Losing some MiG-21's might expedite getting the Dassault deal through and some of the corruption stuff handily forgotten. :tinfoil:

# ? Feb 27, 2019 18:42

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

I keep hearing of escalation from Twitter and DEFCON. Should I ignore those and continue to hope for no nukes?

# ? Feb 27, 2019 20:39

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

While I tend to scoff at people bemoaning the loss of American global leadership this is certainly one particular situation where I'd rather have Barrack or even Bill in the White House rather than Donald.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 21:56

Yuli Ban: Nov 22, 2016; Bot

Aaaand now there's a blackout in Karachi. I assume that's normal, though.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 22:08

WAR CRIME GIGOLO: Oct 3, 2012; The Hague
tryna get me
for these glutes

biglads posted:

I understand the Indians had agreed the purchase of a load of Rafales from France but the procurement process is accused of being riddled with corruption and the tender may have to be re-opened. Losing some MiG-21's might expedite getting the Dassault deal through and some of the corruption stuff handily forgotten.

This is good for Macron

# ? Feb 27, 2019 22:10

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

Is there any sign of things eventually deescalating?

# ? Feb 27, 2019 23:48

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Depends what happens in the next 48 hours, if nothing, it de-escalates.

# ? Feb 27, 2019 23:54

Willo567: Feb 5, 2015; Cheating helped me fail the test and stay on the show.

https://twitter.com/omar_quraishi/status/1100856929193201665

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:00

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Yuli Ban posted:

Aaaand now there's a blackout in Karachi. I assume that's normal, though.

there seem to be some reports of hearing planes but in and of itself Karachi or parts thereof losing electricity is unremarkable.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:00

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

trump will make a bunch of vague statements and then say he deserves nobel peace prize for stopping a nuclear war

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:03

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

Morbus posted:

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsa...demon-had-airpl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Indian_Science_Congress_ancient_aircraft_controversy

Wow, that wiki article gets weirder and weirder the longer you read it.

Turtlicious posted:

Depends what happens in the next 48 hours, if nothing, it de-escalates.

Yep, that sounds pretty reasonable.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:07

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

Willo567 posted:

Is there any sign of things eventually deescalating?

Relax, Modi won't do poo poo. See that Doklam standoff w China. He just want some free election points.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 00:13

Plastic_Gargoyle: Aug 3, 2007

I've been checking Indian and Pakistani airspace on Flightradar24 periodically today, and I noted just now that there are two flights inbound to the airport in Jammu. While Pakistani airspace remains empty, this can't be a bad sign. I hope.

# ? Feb 28, 2019 04:28

Dr Kool-AIDS: Mar 26, 2004

https://twitter.com/dhume/status/1100963511386157056

# ? Feb 28, 2019 12:02

RandomPauI: Nov 24, 2006; Grimey Drawer

gently caress, I didn't realize Steve Zissou was so militant

# ? Feb 28, 2019 12:09

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

Bah, how could he be allowed to de-escalate then?

# ? Feb 28, 2019 12:47

tino: Jun 4, 2018; by Smythe

The Chinese forums are having a ball because it was the JF17 shot down the Indian Mig

https://twitter.com/AMShahidLatif/status/1100743853496324096?s=20

# ? Feb 28, 2019 13:48

DrPop: Aug 22, 2004

Really? I was under the impression it was an F-16 that took out the MiG. I could be wrong, though.

Also, this seems good.

https://twitter.com/pid_gov/status/1101077823987613697

# ? Feb 28, 2019 14:23

golden bubble: Jun 3, 2011; yospos

tino posted:

The Chinese forums are having a ball because it was the JF17 shot down the Indian Mig

Here is an effort-post someone from the Airpower thread found about the JF-17

Tythas posted:

Have a nice write up of the JF-17 courtesy of the Eagle Dynamics Forum

Long before LanceR and the Bison came around there was Project Sabre II, a Pakistani initiative started in the early 1980s to upgrade its Chinese F-7s (MiG-21FL) with Western avionics. This was encouraged by the US's interest in recruiting Pakistan against Soviet activities in Afghanistan, and made possible due to the thaw in US-China relationships. Pakistan was concerned about India's procurement of MiG-29s, but they were also running a nuclear program, and so they wanted something effective, but cheap. They must have figured it to be a trivial task to drop in Western technologies into bargain bin F-7s, so in 1987 they asked Grumman to study the feasibility of their pitch and this was what they came up with, dubbed the Super-7:

Calling it a radical redesign is something of an understatement. It was completely rewinged and reengined, so it was very much a different animal altogether. The engine proposed was a PW1120, a development of the F-4's F100, or an F404. As an ironic sidenote, the F404 would see use powering India's Tejas light fighter, the JF-17's nemesis.

Incidentally there was another fighter powered by a single F404 around this time: Northrop's F-20 Tigershark, which had just hit the chopping block less than a year prior to Grumman's study. Some of its avionics would make its way into the Super-7, as well as its windscreen. The nose section could house the F-20's APG-67 but ended up with the F-16A's APG-66. The APG-67 instead would go on to find a home in Taiwan's homebrewed F-CK-1 (not to be confused with the FC-1, aka JF-17), which, in another twist of irony, came about because the US would not allow F-20s to be sold for fear of souring relations with the PRC!
The Super-7 wound up awkwardly close to an F-20 and annoyingly far away from a MiG-21, and Grumman suggested to Pakistan that they'd be better off just buying an existing design. Then in 1989, the political situation turned on its head again with the Tiananmen protests and the end of the Soviet-Afghan war leading into a focal shift to discouraging Pakistan's nuclear weapons tests. This meant the withdrawal of Grumman and the end of the the Super-7, as far as the US was concerned.

China and Pakistan built upon the Grumman study and worked out the Super-7, later called the FC-1, through the 90s. The Soviet collapse left the Russian aircraft industry scrambling to stay afloat, and so Mikoyan wound up enlisted to expedite the development of the FC-1 as well as selling R&D data for their F-16-esque Izdeliye 33.

The first prototype was rolled out in 2003. These early prototypes are distinguished by fixed splitter plate intakes.

In 2006 the fourth prototype PT-04 was rolled out with the diverterless intakes and much enlarged LERXs seen on production JF-17s. Block 1 LRIP started shortly after in 2007, with Block 2 production originally planned for 2011 iirc but only started at the end of 2013. Officially now it's referred to as the JF-17, JF standing for "Joint Fighter" as opposed to domestic Chinese nomenclature of "Jian" (fighter).

The JF-17 is comparable to the F-16 in size, being less than one foot smaller in every dimension. Empty weight is around 14,000lb compared to the F/A-18C's 23,000lbs. Internal fuel is 5,130lb, less than half of the F/A-18C's 10,860lb. The JF-17 was initially powered by an RD-93, a derivative of the RD-33s from the MiG-29. China wants to replace the RD-93 with the indigenous WS-13. Static thrust figures vary slightly between sources but generally are in the ballpark of 11,000lbf dry to 18,500lbf wet, comparable to a single F404.
For BFM numberjunkies, TWR is obviously not stellar. A 2x heaters loadout will not likely break 1:1 static TWR until below 80% internal. It should be pointed out that it's nevertheless an improvement on the J-7's 14,550lbf wet output, which has something on the order of 4,500lbs internal gas and won't break even until half fuel.
Block 1 and initial Block 2's do not have any inflight refueling gear, although later Pakistani Block 2's have received a fairly ridiculous looking fixed probe.

Armament:

This isn't an exhaustive list for the JF-17's armament. Some weapons of note:

PL-5(E-II)
- The Chinese designation for the R-3/13. Not a lot of information for what the E-II version would be equivalent to, but likely aims to match L/M Sidewinder.

PL-12
- Also seen referred to as the SD-10 for export, this is the Chinese ARH BVR missile. The tailfins have a distinctive forward-swept root. It likely uses an R-77 derived seeker in an 8in AIM-7-like package, so while it looks like an AIM-120 it's something more like an "AIM-77".

MAR-1
- This is an indigenous Brazilian anti-radiation missile generally similar to the AGM-88. 100 rounds were purchased by the Pakistan Air Force.

C-802
- Export version of the YJ-8 anti-ship missile. Visually similar to the Exocet, but it's turbojet-driven like the Harpoon.

LS-6
- This designation encompasses a family of JDAM-ER-esque PGM kits.

Hatf-VIII
- Also known as the Ra'ad, this is a Pakistani air launched cruise missile.

The JF-17 has a GSh-23-2 under the port intake in a housing similar to the one on the MiG-21bis.

Avionics:
The radar for Blocks 1 and 2 is a KLJ-7 mechanically scanned planar array radar, capable of tracking 10 and engaging 2 with a typical detection range of a MiG-21-sized target around 40nm. It's also got all the standard bells and whistles of a modern multirole radar, including synthetic aperture mode and nominal ground moving target track capability.

A targeting pod known as WMD-7 has been shown off but doesn't seem to have achieved adoption yet. HMS had been envisioned early on, with a Chinese HMS unit tested in 2006 and Pakistani hoped for fleetwide adoption in 2008, but currently it's been pushed back to (yet another) Block 3 feature.
In terms of defensive aids, the JF-17 allegedly is equipped with a self protection jammer on top of the vertical tail, and a dedicated external EWAR pod is also available as the KG300G. In addition to standard RWR, it has a rear hemisphere missile warning system, located on the base of the vertical tail. Countermeasure count is difficult to assess but at least 36 tubes in a paired array are visible on the dorsal root of the stabilizers with another pair in the corresponding ventral position.

The JF-17 Block 3 is supposed to come out this year, but who knows if it will actually come out or be delayed.

golden bubble fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Feb 28, 2019

# ? Feb 28, 2019 17:16

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101105653320282114

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101106042690142211

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101106575844925440

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101107725088354304

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101106731910746112

https://twitter.com/KashmirIntel/status/1101108332041891840

Typo fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Feb 28, 2019

# ? Feb 28, 2019 17:21

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

I take it that de-escalation has not yet occured?

# ? Feb 28, 2019 23:53

Turtlicious: Sep 17, 2012; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

It's looking good.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 00:23

Tragicomic: Jun 6, 2011; by Modern Video Games

Would a nuclear exchange, purely between Pakistan and India, reduce human population enough to mitigate climate change?

# ? Mar 1, 2019 03:45

svenkatesh: Sep 5, 2016; by FactsAreUseless

Tragicomic posted:

Would a nuclear exchange, purely between Pakistan and India, reduce human population enough to mitigate climate change?

Nuclear winter can be a great way to reverse global warming!
#SayYestoWar

# ? Mar 1, 2019 03:51

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# ? May 9, 2024 15:58

Paradoxish: Dec 19, 2003; Will you stop going crazy in there?

Tragicomic posted:

Would a nuclear exchange, purely between Pakistan and India, reduce human population enough to mitigate climate change?

Not unless they're nuking China or the US for some reason.

Nuclear winter might help, though.

# ? Mar 1, 2019 03:52

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