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According to the Technical Manual, the Galaxy Class was intended to have a century lifespan.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:27
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Yeah, the OG Enterprise was in service for forty years (2245-2285).
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Aug 10, 2019 02:45
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Given how many Mirandas and Excelsiors we see running around a century seems like a standard Starfleet ship life expectancy. Just slowly being pushed into less important roles.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:46
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Went through three power plants.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:47
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It's completely unsupported by anything canon but I like to think that post-TUC Starfleet build hundreds and hundreds of Excelsiors and Mirandas for an exploration initiative and that's why we see so many of them bumping around fifty years later.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:55
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Given the registry numbers we see Starfleet just has a loving ton of ships. Excelsior is NCC-2000 launched in 2293 and Voyager is NCC-74656 launched in 2371. Even with small ships like runabouts getting numbers that's a lot of goddamn ships to build in 80 years.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:58
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Zurui posted:It's completely unsupported by anything canon but I like to think that post-TUC Starfleet build hundreds and hundreds of Excelsiors and Mirandas for an exploration initiative and that's why we see so many of them bumping around fifty years later. more like getting bumped off
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Aug 10, 2019 03:23
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Son of Sam-I-Am posted:I like a lot of things, just not Discovery. oh i like discovery but i would never dare say so on here
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Aug 10, 2019 05:45
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Grand Fromage posted:Given the registry numbers we see Starfleet just has a loving ton of ships. Excelsior is NCC-2000 launched in 2293 and Voyager is NCC-74656 launched in 2371. Even with small ships like runabouts getting numbers that's a lot of goddamn ships to build in 80 years. We don't necessarily know that the registry numbers are chronological, though. Just because the Excelsior is 2000 doesn't mean the next ship built is 2001. Some of the number could refer to ship class or type, or place of construction, or whatever.
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Aug 10, 2019 06:17
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They haven't explicitly stated it but it's been consistent in every series except maybe TOS. Older ships have lower numbers, newer have larger ones. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_starship_registries has a list. I think the intention is clearly that they're chronological. Whether Starfleet has actually built 74,913 ships since its foundation I guess is a question but I don't see why not. It's a lot of ships, but given how big the Federation is it's not absurd. E: Also given even runabouts and that little piece of poo poo Scotty was on in TNG get numbers you could run up the total real fast without having to build legions of Galaxy classes or whatever. E2: Still reading stuff since I have nothing better to do, Discovery says as of 2257 Starfleet has 7,000 ships in service. Ron Moore said in a Q&A during DS9's production he thinks Starfleet as of the 2370s has about 30,000 ships in service. He also links this to chronological registry numbers. I'd say that's about as official an answer as we'd get. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 06:24
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Grand Fromage posted:They haven't explicitly stated it but it's been consistent in every series except maybe TOS. Older ships have lower numbers, newer have larger ones. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_starship_registries has a list. I think the intention is clearly that they're chronological. Ex Astris Scientia gave it the usual obsessive analysis and arrived at pretty much your same conclusion: it appears to be roughly chronological but ships last a long time. http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/registries.htm
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Aug 10, 2019 06:45
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Somewhere around 75k ships over more than a hundred years seems entirely reasonable to me. It might suggest a certain degree of density beyond what we typically see - though I think the only big "fleet" battle we see before the DS9 wars is Wolf 359, which I think was also explicitly "uhhh gently caress what do we have near earth, poo poo, gently caress". The codes might also cover Federation ships that aren't going to be doing anything exciting, like those bulk haulers in the old Star Fleet Technical Manual. You'd also probably have some downward pressure if more than one ship is getting the A B C D treatment.
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Aug 10, 2019 06:49
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Starfleet would need logistics so probably a solid quarter to third of its ships are transports/cargo.
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Aug 10, 2019 06:53
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Yea. Outposts might get the codes if it stands for Naval Construction Contract or something like that, too.
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Aug 10, 2019 06:56
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Aug 10, 2019 07:01
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Grand Fromage posted:They haven't explicitly stated it but it's been consistent in every series except maybe TOS. Older ships have lower numbers, newer have larger ones. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Federation_starship_registries has a list. I think the intention is clearly that they're chronological. I wouldn't be surprised if ships work the same way- increasing the number, but not necessarily just increment by one for each ship to help differentiate them. Perhaps jumping to a significant number (like 2000 for Excelsior) for new classes or something.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:08
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As noted above, the original idea was that the first two digits would the class designation and the second two would indicate the construction order. So the Enterprise would be the 17th class and the second ship ordered. This doesn't work at all for anything Next Gen or afterward, though, unless Starfleet produced something like 140 Galaxy-class starships by the end of Voyager.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:28
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Didn’t the constitution class from Doomsday Machine have a registry in the low-1000s?
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Aug 10, 2019 07:36
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Zurui posted:As noted above, the original idea was that the first two digits would the class designation and the second two would indicate the construction order. So the Enterprise would be the 17th class and the second ship ordered.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:42
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Didn’t the constitution class from Doomsday Machine have a registry in the low-1000s? Yeah, NCC-1071. As inconsistent as Trek can be with its canon TOS is by far the least consistent. I tend to ignore it if it fits together in other series but disagrees with TOS.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:47
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Big Mean Jerk posted:Didn’t the constitution class from Doomsday Machine have a registry in the low-1000s? Yeah, it was literally just a burnt off-the-shelf plastic model with the registry numbers rearranged to NCC-1017. This is explained in third-party material by indicating that there was a prior type (Republic-class, I believe) of heavy cruisers that were roughly externally identical to the Constitution-class.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:48
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Nessus posted:I think the tech guide said they made six Galaxies for active service and made enough parts to either build six more or repair the old ones easily. I'm not sure how well this matches up with DS9's big wars... but they might have gone with a proven design, presumably more like "Yesterday's Enterprise" internally, rather than tried to funnovate. It was certainly a top end ship and presumably they made a bunch of Voyagers and Mirandas for other missions. You could handwave it as Starfleet building a fuckton of just barebones or even undersized Galaxies for the war or just before it that don’t have any of the diplomatic or scientific modules the D has. Just weapons, engines, and support gear. And there’s historical precedent, like the USS Wasp being a 3/4 scale Yorktown-class just to eat up allotted carrier tonnage, or the South Dakota-class battleships that were basically improved North Carolina-class ships built without the same treaty restrictions as war became more inevitable.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:58
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The Ticonderoga cruisers use the same hull as the much smaller Spruance destroyers. Got the design and it works, might as well use it again.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:36
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There's also the "not better enough" problem in real procurement. Sure you can design an engine or a hull that's 8% more efficient, and military procurement is going to look at that and shrug because it's certainly not worth the hassle of switching vendors, tooling and training for marginal improvements. The M16 series has been in service for fifty years now, and every project to replace it has been canceled because of the not better enough problem.
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Aug 10, 2019 16:52
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Most likely they’re not in numerical order. Militaries choose (seemingly) random numbers in order to disguise the true size of their forces. In WW2 there were dozens of US Army units that only existed on paper. There were also units that would go into enemy territory and regularly swap their unit insignia to make the Germans think we had more troops there than we actually did.
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Aug 10, 2019 18:07
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man, terra prime from enterprise is one of the more interesting storylines to see now since it feels pretty relevant
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Aug 10, 2019 18:20
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Retrowave Joe posted:Most likely they’re not in numerical order. Militaries choose (seemingly) random numbers in order to disguise the true size of their forces. For anyone wanting to read more about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem
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Aug 10, 2019 18:32
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Wouldn't the D be only, like, a few years older than that at this point? Still in the prime of its life, baby. You know, if they hadn't destroyed it. loving TNG movies. I like the idea that the Galaxies and the Sovereigns were planned together and the idea is that after the Sovereigns had rolled off the lines they'd take over the near-Federation heavy cruiser jobs and the Galaxies would be sent on their long-term exploration missions.
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Aug 10, 2019 18:55
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HUGE SPACEKABLOOIE posted:Forgive me if this has been posted before: https://i.imgur.com/2PPhcrr.mp4 Defiant battles were a good spectacle though.
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Aug 10, 2019 18:59
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Galvanik posted:I never liked these scenes because they didn't fit at all with what we saw on bridges. "Attack Pattern Delta" multiple seconds pass and something happens. I always got the impression that the ship fights were meant to be really slow plodding things. They're slow and plodding for the big guys and faster for the Defiant or a Bird of Prey.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:16
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Yeah you can see all the big ships are just plodding along not even shooting because their bridge crews are playing in the TNG slow turn-based mode while the defiant and smaller ships are using their real time micro strategies.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:30
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MikeJF posted:I like the idea that the Galaxies and the Sovereigns were planned together and the idea is that after the Sovereigns had rolled off the lines they'd take over the near-Federation heavy cruiser jobs and the Galaxies would be sent on their long-term exploration missions. See, I always assumed that the Sovereign was a direct response to the fact that the Galaxies ended up in the battleship role far more often than Starfleet leadership had anticipated.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:37
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Galvanik posted:I always got the impression that the ship fights were meant to be really slow plodding things. They did this with the big space battle in Discovery season two. Just these huge dreadnoughts beating on each other for what seems like hours and hours.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:52
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Reached the bearded glory of season two and on to Elementary My Dear Data. I'm assuming Geordi was lying when he told Data he made that huge model ship by hand, since spending all his free time for months on a gift for his old captain is pretty weird.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:56
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There is no printer too big for Geordi to carry.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:58
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Grand Fromage posted:There is no printer too big for Geordi to carry. Now if his old captain was a woman this would be totally in character. He's a man though. Edit- what the hell, Moriarty notices the holodeck arch and freaks out a little before Geordi tells the computer to create an opponent that can defeat Data. marktheando fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 20:08
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Species 8472... what the heck? Introduced as a threat to the Borg. Wow, woah! Drama ensues, and that all is fine. Bit of a lame Worfing of the Borg to introduce new badguys but whatever. Next we see them there's a single individual, loving with these warrior folks, stalking Voyager Alien style. Mostly fine. It's a bit weird that these dumb hunter guys are even stronger than 8472, but it was just one damaged ship, and later just one individual, so okay. I'll buy it. Ethical dilemma about killing an individual genocidal monster to make Voyager's life easier- good dilemma. Janeway made the good ethical call but you can see why 7 of 9 wanted to kill the thing anyway. Finally we run into a group planning an invasion of the Starfleet headquarters! Oh no! The monsters are targeting earth! ... Except they're a hot(?) lady who wants to have sex with Chakotay, and a kindly old man who are looking for any excuse to be chums. They know everything about the Federation, but seem to believe it's secretly genocidal, all its ideals and history (which they accept as true) are just a long-con to invade Fluidic Space. Janeway basically just has to say, "wait, no, we're cool," and they believe them. End of episode. That was an odd development, so I looked up when the next 8472 episode was... and there is none. That's it. The end of that story. I'm totally on board with the idea of a surprise peaceful resolution with a seemingly genocidal monster. But what the heck was that. They even bring it up in the episode. "Didn't you say you were going to wipe out all life in our galaxy?" "We were just defending ourselves." They're actually totally cool and peaceful and not xenophobic at all. I mean, I guess I can accept the broad strokes. If your first introduction to a galaxy was the Borg, I can imagine why you'd want to possibly wipe it out and emphasize the ship that was working with them. But how did they figure out so much about the Federation without realizing the situation? And more importantly, why was Voyager so utterly convinced 8472 was a bigger threat than the Borg in the first place? Does this mean that Voyager totally hosed everything up, and that a race of ultimately cool and chill guys were about to wipe out the Borg and everything would have been fine? Eiba fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 21:06
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You know the answer already. People have posted it hundreds of times in this thread.
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Aug 10, 2019 21:39
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I've heard generic "Voyager bad" "Voyager ruined X" a bunch, but I honestly had no idea from reading complaints in this thread that 8472 just kind of... fizzles out like that. The Scorpion two parter was surprisingly good, considering all the poo poo Voyager gets here. I don't think it ruined the Borg in any way, and had some okay moral issues. Generally speaking things end up getting followed up on more than people have implied. There are things like character growth things that progress in the background, even without any explicit serialization. So I was beginning to think that all the Voyager hate was hyperbole. There have been a bunch of other species that just get introduced and kind of awkwardly dropped, but they'd done a good enough job building up 8472 that it was still kind of a shock.
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Aug 10, 2019 22:03
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The Borg were fine until the introduction of Unimatrix Zero. Once they brought back the Borg Queen it got ridiculous. I can let the Worfing of the Borg via 8472 go by because that's just a common long running show problem where each threat has to be bigger than the last so they use the previous threat to indicate how big the new one is, over and over. (Like the Daleks in the 2005 Doctor Who) and I'm even sort of okay with the drone kids that Seven begrudgingly adopts, but "Some Borg secretly dream of being real people again in a harmonious forest dimension they can't remember" is just loving stupid.
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Aug 10, 2019 22:21
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