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luxury handset posted:it's a big ditch for stormwater runoff, part of suburban site remediation includes dealing with the huge amount of stormwater generated by a broad expanse of impermeable surface They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system?
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Aug 8, 2019 20:35
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Baronjutter posted:They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system? buddy we cant even maintain the pipes under the ground that carry explosive stuff or potable water
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Aug 8, 2019 20:39
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Baronjutter posted:They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system? The heck are you talking about, they are a proper storm water system for the area! That's why they've become so popular globally. Piping everything into a central dump point for a region might sound appealing, but that's usually less of a solution than building out systems such that the water first flows into these local area ponds, and then when those start filling too fast they drain off to further systems. They also provide more or less stable pseudo-wetland environments that are useful for local wildlife.
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Aug 8, 2019 20:48
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Baronjutter posted:They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system? It's not reasonable to build "big pipes" to handle large rain events. Yes, many of these drainage basins are pipes out somewhere to the storm sewers, but the bufer the water so it doesn't overwhelm the infrastructure. Some of these basins are set to drain completely, some may be designed to stay partially full.
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Aug 8, 2019 21:01
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You do realize that water is absorbed by the land itself, it doesn't all just flow to the nearest river and out to sea? Many urban areas, like Houston, for example, see more of their rainfall absorbed by the ground than could possibly flow through the many bayous. Thus, paving the ground over and running it through pipes leads to flooding that destroys homes and kills people each year. Thus the ponds. Sorry you find them gross!
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Aug 8, 2019 21:08
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:You do realize that water is absorbed by the land itself, it doesn't all just flow to the nearest river and out to sea? Houston also paved over and destroyed all of its wetlands (i.e. nature's sponge). Given the flooding they've experienced... they've slightly started to reconsider that (nah, they're still building a million strip malls).
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Aug 8, 2019 21:21
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:You do realize that water is absorbed by the land itself, it doesn't all just flow to the nearest river and out to sea? It's just not something I've ever seen in the city i live in, even in the newer gross big box areas. I've certainly seen some industrial areas with big underground retention basin things but no where close to the sizes I've seen on good maps of other places. We get a ton of rain here but its non stop light rain rather than storms so we probably dont need to deal with huge surges. Paving over all your healthy wetlands then trying to recreate their function through thousands of ecologically useless trash pits seems like lovely urban planning though.
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Aug 8, 2019 21:36
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Dielectric posted:If it's anything like Wisconsin, the remaining big box retailers will use that empty building as a real estate assessment "comp", claiming that their currently occupied building is now somehow worth less because that empty building is valued lower now. Then they get the assessed value reduced and thus pay lower taxes. Which shifts the tax burden to you, the homeowner. I've done the same thing... back circa 2008-2010, I repeatedly used recent sales of other townhomes to successfully reduce my property taxes. It's not a loophole. The problem is that cities do a lousy job updating valuations, particularly in down markets.
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Aug 8, 2019 21:45
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Your example is pretty different than the dark store loophole. Retail lawyers are arguing that only the physical building should factor in the assessment, not the brand or even the popularity of the area. They are then allowed to argue that the 20 year old abandoned Walmart in the old part of the city that was replaced by a supercenter on the outskirts of town is a valid comparable. So unless you were able to compare your townhome to abandoned ones in the ghetto, it’s not the same.
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Aug 8, 2019 22:53
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Baronjutter posted:They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system? this is a really outdated attitude, and there's a lot of good reasons many planners try hard to avoid this. Water is actually really complicated and expensive to deal with, and the ideal system is often going to more closely resemble a natural stream than a sewer:  There's even a big movement to daylight a lot of those big underground pipes, open them up to the air and make them more natural. They don't have to be a gross concrete slab with shear sides, it can actually be somewhere nice for people to walk and sit.
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Aug 8, 2019 23:16
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Hand Row posted:So unless you were able to compare your townhome to abandoned ones in the ghetto, it’s not the same. Or even better, when Target abandoned their store in one strip mall then built a new store 3 miles away and claimed their OWN abandoned store as a comp. Same with Walmart.
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Aug 8, 2019 23:19
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Baronjutter posted:They don't have big ol' pipes under the roads for that? I never quite understood why a lot of super suburban areas have these gross ponds all over the place, is that to save money vs having a proper storm water system? you don't really want to put all the water into underground pipes, that is a suboptimal solution. all the concentrated water has to come out somewhere, really you're just shifting the problem somewhere else it's much better to let that water get into the ground as much as possible, and then pipe out the remainder. using bioswales or something like that is great because instead of having to deal with a shitload of runoff all at once, you can stretch the runoff out over time as the ground helps to absorb/slow the flow of it, and some of the runoff will go into groundwater as it should and would do if there were no concrete barrier covering the earth Baronjutter posted:Paving over all your healthy wetlands then trying to recreate their function through thousands of ecologically useless trash pits seems like lovely urban planning though. they are definitely not ecologically useless lmao
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Aug 8, 2019 23:44
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Baronjutter posted:ecologically useless trash pits that's a mean way to describe Texas
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Aug 9, 2019 00:41
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The natural wetlands are also gross trash pits. As are the big pipes under roads. Litter sucks.
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Aug 9, 2019 08:26
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Dielectric posted:Or even better, when Target abandoned their store in one strip mall then built a new store 3 miles away and claimed their OWN abandoned store as a comp. Same with Walmart. Circling back to the "retail collapse 2019," the fair market value of a big box 'building' probably is ~$0 nowadays (edit: likely < $0). Hence, all of the demos in favor of new townhomes / restaurants mentioned a few pages back. gaj70 fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Aug 9, 2019 |
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Aug 9, 2019 15:00
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Baronjutter posted:It's just not something I've ever seen in the city i live in, even in the newer gross big box areas. I've certainly seen some industrial areas with big underground retention basin things but no where close to the sizes I've seen on good maps of other places. We get a ton of rain here but its non stop light rain rather than storms so we probably dont need to deal with huge surges. No offense but you live on a weird offshore island with one rather small city on it. There's also not all that much precipitation. Your experiences are going to be quite off for how to handle vast amounts of water across vast paved and otherwise developed lands in and around large urban/suburban areas. (Even so, BC probably should be requiring more use of surface ponds)
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Aug 9, 2019 16:11
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Surface pobds and mandatory green spaces/fields should be a regulatory requirement for any big development. It would encourage denser land use and increase green space in cities.
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Aug 9, 2019 22:35
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Surface pobds and mandatory green spaces/fields should be a regulatory requirement for any big development. It would encourage denser land use and increase green space in cities. Land developers look at that space not being used for suburban wasteland with twitching eyes and shaking fists.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:46
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gaj70 posted:Circling back to the "retail collapse 2019," the fair market value of a big box 'building' probably is ~$0 nowadays (edit: likely < $0). Hence, all of the demos in favor of new townhomes / restaurants mentioned a few pages back. Warehouses, so many Warehouses have gone up by me in recent years.
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Aug 10, 2019 07:04
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Land developers look at that space not being used for suburban wasteland with twitching eyes and shaking fists. Yes, hence why I said mandatory. As in, you know, regulatory requirement. Who cares what developers think, they're scum.
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Aug 10, 2019 20:41
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Where I live they keep trying to force developers to add on green space and community space and non profit art things and what have you to new devlopment, but all the developers do is agree to the project with the community theater or whatever, finish the whole thing, sell it to another company who has no contractual obligations for any of that poo poo and then they just do whatever they want that's legal for the zoning. Now your community theater is just another big retail space on the market and oh yay now it's yet another Crate & Barrel. loving awesome. It's not clear why the city keeps letting themselves get screwed like this, they claim they have no ability to enforce contracts when people sell their property but there is some talk developers just bribe city employees on the reg to structure the contracts such that they are never actually on the hook for anything. Also most of the city council & planning committee are current/ex developers or seem to hold real estate across half the city for some reason. So yeah. Pryor on Fire fucked around with this message at 00:00 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 11, 2019 23:57
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Pryor on Fire posted:Where I live they keep trying to force developers to add on green space and community space and non profit art things and what have you to new devlopment, but all the developers do is agree to the project with the community theater or whatever, finish the whole thing, sell it to another company who has no contractual obligations for any of that poo poo and then they just do whatever they want that's legal for the zoning. Now your community theater is just another big retail space on the market and oh yay now it's yet another Crate & Barrel. loving awesome. One part bribery, one part incompetence.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:47
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Proud Christian Mom posted:One part bribery, one part incompetence. One feeds the other.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:52
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The problem is planning commissions attract two kinds of people because no one else can be bothered, realtors and developers. If your DSA takes over the planning commission poo poo can change real fast.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:54
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RuanGacho posted:The problem is planning commissions attract two kinds of people because no one else can be bothered, realtors and developers. you are forgetting the third component: A Shitload Of Cranky Old People
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Aug 12, 2019 06:34
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Squalid posted:
*except in the lily-whitest suburbs
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Aug 12, 2019 15:44
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Sitting and chilling is a crime in America that gets you shot in the head by a cop (if you're a person of color)
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Aug 12, 2019 15:55
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luxury handset posted:you are forgetting the third component: A Shitload Of Cranky Old People Fair point, my local one was ran by some old guy who thought the best way to eliminate undesirables was to make the housing market and coincidentally his own home as expensive as possible. Thankfully hes gone now.
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Aug 12, 2019 16:00
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Killer-of-Lawyers posted:Yes, hence why I said mandatory. As in, you know, regulatory requirement. Who cares what developers think, they're scum. Politicians who get lots of money from developers.
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Aug 12, 2019 16:04
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Shrecknet posted:I can say confidently that every city I've ever lived in (in America) is definitely not interested in providing anything resembling "a nice place for people to just sit and chill for a minute*" *looks at Central Park*
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Aug 12, 2019 16:38
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Shrecknet posted:I can say confidently that every city I've ever lived in (in America) is definitely not interested in providing anything resembling "a nice place for people to just sit and chill for a minute*" So what trash holes did you live in?
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Aug 12, 2019 16:41
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Manhattan in general is kind of an exception. That was a place that up until fairly recently had been an ongoing meme for Most Crime Ridden Hellhole In America (Central Park specifically. There's a reason why "Don't jog Central Park at night" was a thing) Now it's been gentrified to hell and back and raising a fist anywhere near Times Square will magically spawn 15 cops like you were in an RPG and stole a loaf of bread DeathChicken fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Aug 12, 2019 |
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Aug 12, 2019 16:47
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:*looks at Central Park* Central Park is one of those things like libraries that would never be brought into existence today if it didn't already exist 100 years ago. Also, I feel like "the middle of the richest city in the world" falls squarely into my "for the pleasure of rich whites" exception.
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Aug 12, 2019 17:10
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OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:*looks at Central Park* A nice place for people to chill, because the initial nice place for people to chill already had rich white people chilling on it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_Village#Planning_of_Central_Park
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Aug 12, 2019 17:11
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Shrecknet posted:Central Park is one of those things like libraries that would never be brought into existence today if it didn't already exist 100 years ago. Also, I feel like "the middle of the richest city in the world" falls squarely into my "for the pleasure of rich whites" exception. Ok how about the other couple hundred parks across NYC. And the vast amount of poor people who live there. Also again, what are those cities you lived in with no good parks?
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Aug 12, 2019 17:13
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Shrecknet posted:Central Park is one of those things like libraries that would never be brought into existence today if it didn't already exist 100 years ago. Also, I feel like "the middle of the richest city in the world" falls squarely into my "for the pleasure of rich whites" exception. It's immensely regional. Some places value public spaces and community services a lot to the point where voters will vote additional taxes on themselves for them. Other places don't value it at all. Don't live in those places they suck.
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Aug 12, 2019 17:44
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people here bitch about the cost of public parks but also keep supporting the county spend $2 million a year keeping the local minor league sports stadiums open for private use
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Aug 12, 2019 20:15
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We have a regional parks district that gets a property tax voted in every two years. They run a community center with classes and kids programs, are building a second pool , a camp ground, run festitivals, farmers market, plays, and are expanding the number of parks as fast as they can buy property. Same place is zoning for missing middle housing in the small town, walkable down town core. It's loving great. And the doing it right poo poo is super good for the city, it's pulling off the change while retaining it's character and community. Just walking around I bump into the planning commisioners or the mayor about once a month.
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Aug 12, 2019 20:33
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Even suburban shitholes like LA and Phoenix are dotted with great parks
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Aug 13, 2019 00:21
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Shrecknet posted:I can say confidently that every city I've ever lived in (in America) is definitely not interested in providing anything resembling "a nice place for people to just sit and chill for a minute*" the big issue is something luxury handset brought up, which is that you have to have a system for dealing with surface water anyway. The canals/ponds in that plan for a suburban mall redevelopment are not really optional, that water has to go somewhere. Today they are often just a big ditch and dank field that are kind of gross and unattractive. However if you plan on redeveloping that space into something that's mixed use and even walkable, you're going to need to make changes. Putting in a big pipe underground has been the default choice in a lot of places, but since the fifties we have a better understanding of the hidden costs incurred by such systems. Making these spaces not suck takes a little more money up front, but it's definitely achievable. Also I've noticed new developments I've seen have a bit more attention paid to these issues, clearly reflecting changing tastes and trends in planning. The Mosaic district in Fairfax Virginia, built in the last decade, put a lot of effort into being "walkable," you have to drive there but once you park it is nice and convenient to walk around. I think it's probably going to be typical of how America redesigns its retail spaces in the near future.  It's kind of designed similar to a mall, with a Target and theater as anchors and a large free parking garage. You even have to exit the garage through the Target. Then there are street level restaurants and boutiques with apartments and condos surrounding a central park and square with seating and lots of people just hanging out. It's definitely higher end though, kind of rich diverse in atmosphere.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:22
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