|
oddium posted:hello i'm trying to learn this game after doing everything important in eu4. right now it's 780 and i'm some tribal guy on the volga river It depends on the situation. If you're in a rush to gobble up provinces, I'd personally go for the big one, but generally the single province de jures are fine too. Generally I feel like once you have de jure CB's you've already gotten past the hardest part, so I usually just go for the single counties unless there's a threat of it being gobbled up by a stronger neighbour close by.
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2019 20:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 20:12 |
|
|
oddium posted:hello i'm trying to learn this game after doing everything important in eu4. right now it's 780 and i'm some tribal guy on the volga river If memory serves, the dutchy DB will grant you the dutchy title, and some vassals. The county CBs should give you ownership of the counties. If the titles mattered, you could do the two county CBs, and then usurp the dutchy once you have all the de jure land.
|
|
#
?
Aug 12, 2019 21:25
|
|
|
I'd check and see if the current owner of the duchy has more than one county. If he's a one-county duke and there are no other counts in the duchy, then the duchy title is destroyed when you conquer his county and you can recreate it for more prestige (provided you have the gold, of course).
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
As Khagan of Liao (Khitan Nomad) I just reformed Tengri, selecting Temporal Leadership, Warmongering, Bloodthirsty, Ancestor Veneration and Eternal Riders. Suddenly I don't have an heir and one of my vassal clans is going to inherit? I have like 7 sons, all of which have loads of prestige, what gives? They are all buddhist, and I can't make them convert, but that wasn't a problem before I reformed. The vassal khan is buddhist too though, which makes this very confusing. Did I just gently caress myself and should I find a way to convert to Buddhism?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 02:37
|
|
|
I’m curious about mending the schism. Am I supposed to go to war with Rome in order to put in a pentarch? I started out Strategos of Siciliy in 769 after a few runs in Ireland and decided I want to try to form the Roman Empire, but am curious about the Pentarchy and how to install them in the 5 sites.
Dirk Pitt fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Aug 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 08:06
|
|
|
Here is a copy of the base game from the humblebundle: GEXDA-5I74X-VCHBI if you are reading this thread and wanna try it out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 08:32
|
|
|
Newbie question: My wife had a claim on a petty kingdom, which I, king of my own petty kingdom, dutifully pressed and gave to her. For some reason, she didn't want to form an alliance for "political reasons" and some clown came in soon after because she had like 50 troops and took it from her and I couldn't even join the war to defend her. What gives? Why can't I form an alliance with my own drat wife who has 100 approval and is also my lover??
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 09:20
|
|
|
Hey, just a quick question (bit of a newbie question, but I haven't used gavelkind in forever) but if -for example- I have three duchies and three sons under gavelkind, if I give two sons the secondary duchies prior to my death, will the last son inherit my remaining duchy upon my death, without my other sons getting additional slices of the pie? If so, what happens if one of the two sons I land pre-death is my first-born? Will that cause issues? Like, will I take over as them in their own duchy, instead of the son I left unlanded until my death?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 09:36
|
|
|
Major Isoor posted:Hey, just a quick question (bit of a newbie question, but I haven't used gavelkind in forever) but if -for example- I have three duchies and three sons under gavelkind, if I give two sons the secondary duchies prior to my death, will the last son inherit my remaining duchy upon my death, without my other sons getting additional slices of the pie? I'm pretty bad at this stuff myself but I'm pretty sure your plan will work. Titles go from eldest to youngest. If you've got say three duchies and four counties with three sons then the first son gets a duchy (not sure how it determines which), then second son gets a duchy, then third son gets a duchy, then first son gets a county, then second son gets a county, then third son gets a county, then first son gets the last county. This is if I remember how it works correctly. So theoretically if you give 2/3 of the duchies away to two of the sons beforehand, than the remaining duchy should go to the remaining duchy-less son? Trickyblackjack posted:Newbie question: The political concerns malus, as far as I can gather, indicates that they think there's a good chance they'll want a war with you for expansion and don't want a pesky alliance getting in the way. I'm really not sure on this though, but it's what I'm seeing from looking at all kinds of forum posts through a google search. Dirk Pitt posted:I’m curious about mending the schism. Am I supposed to go to war with Rome in order to put in a pentarch? I started out Strategos of Siciliy in 769 after a few runs in Ireland and decided I want to try to form the Roman Empire, but am curious about the Pentarchy and how to install them in the 5 sites. Yup, you're gonna have to take Rome. Honestly this is extremely easy. The Pope's a wuss. Just fabricate a claim and go nuts. Speaking of Rome, it's worth knowing that you can really throw a wrench in a crusade by sailing to Rome and occupying it. Iceatollah posted:As Khagan of Liao (Khitan Nomad) I just reformed Tengri, selecting Temporal Leadership, Warmongering, Bloodthirsty, Ancestor Veneration and Eternal Riders. Suddenly I don't have an heir and one of my vassal clans is going to inherit? I have like 7 sons, all of which have loads of prestige, what gives? They are all buddhist, and I can't make them convert, but that wasn't a problem before I reformed. The vassal khan is buddhist too though, which makes this very confusing. Nomadic succession shouldn't have anything to do with religion. Does the vassal khan set to inherit have more prestige than your heir? Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 10:02 on Aug 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 09:53
|
|
|
From the wiki:quote:Khagan: Usually goes to the dynastic heir of the previous khagan. However, another clan chief (khan) can inherit based on population ratio and difference in prestige. Children cannot inherit the khagan title, so if the dying khagan has no adult male relatives of the correct culture, another khan inherits the title. (Mutters about the time my carefully groomed pope lost his zealous trait, thus docking 5 suitability points for the trait alone and another 15 from all the mutual zealous-approves-of-zealous opinion bonuses that most of the other cardinals sported…  )…on an unrelated note, and just to vent: is there an official CK2 term for that feeling when you forgot that an invasion CB was used to start a war after 5 in-game years of fighting and you end up staring at a demesne count of 120/11. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 13:27
|
|
|
Tippis posted:demesne count of 120/11. lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 13:34
|
|
|
Honky Dong Country posted:Nomadic succession shouldn't have anything to do with religion. Does the vassal khan set to inherit have more prestige than your heir? The other Khagan has maybe 1/8th of my total population, but a bit more prestige. And I am set to lose everything, not just the khagan title. I have a feeling its because I no longer count as a "pagan" religion after the reformation, and none of my children are eligable to inherit because non of them share my new non-pagan / dharmic religion. I'm gonna try having a kid with a concubine / seducing one up, which should mean it will come out as my new religion and so be eligable to inherit the khanate, but lose the khagan title. Reformation is a real pain in the rear end for the succession issues it throws up, and the game could do a better job of explaining this. I've already made a bloodline this playthrough, does that mean I can't make any others with new characters?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 13:53
|
|
|
Iceatollah posted:The other Khagan has maybe 1/8th of my total population, but a bit more prestige. And I am set to lose everything, not just the khagan title. I have a feeling its because I no longer count as a "pagan" religion after the reformation, and none of my children are eligable to inherit because non of them share my new non-pagan / dharmic religion. I'm gonna try having a kid with a concubine / seducing one up, which should mean it will come out as my new religion and so be eligable to inherit the khanate, but lose the khagan title. Reformation is a real pain in the rear end for the succession issues it throws up, and the game could do a better job of explaining this. I think it gets harder to get bloodlines if your current character already has bloodlines. I had a Byzantine run where I had made like 4-5 bloodlines because Imperial Elective had rulership jumping around different branches of the family so a couple branches had saint bloodlines, a couple others had forged ones, etc. And honestly I'm pretty certain that religion has absolutely no impact on nomadic succession. Nomads don't vote or anything. E: In other news, I'm loving around with 769 Venice and by 807 poo poo's already getting weird. Somebody pressed a woman's claim on the excommunicated King of the Longbards (who embargo warred me like a loving dick) and won. Turns out the lady they installed on the throne was a vassal of the Byzantines so all of Italy turned purple. Shortly afterward I swore fealty to the Basileus for the sake of my trade network. Saxony has swallowed East Francia, Norway and Sweden are remarkably well blobbed up. Ireland is almost entirely unified and has pushed into Wales. Serbia went berzerk and took Bulgaria and Wallachia. Somehow Aragon has survived and remains in Christian hands, and prolly will since the Umayyads just got owned by Shias. In the east the Abbasids just got owned by decadence and are now a hot mess. Even India has seemed to come together into cohesive kingdoms. The Icelings in Mercia are steadily uniting England, while France is a mostly shattered mess, amazingly without a single realm under Karling rule anymore. This is likely because Saxony used to own all of Francia a couple decades ago and lost it until they only had East Francia left. Honestly none of that is shocking on its own, but I am surprised to see the current state of the map in only 807. E2: Lmao Serbia has now taken Pannonia. They could possibly become the Empire of Carpathia at this rate. Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 14:54 on Aug 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 13:58
|
|
|
I'm finally getting into CKII after having it in my Library for 6 years. Is Ireland still the recommended start for beginners? Also, I picked up the Humble Bundle DLCs that allow for starts earlier than 1066. Should I start off at one of these earlier dates? One thing that I'm still not sure about is how to see how many troops an opponent can muster before I declare war.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 15:50
|
|
|
Iceatollah posted:The other Khagan has maybe 1/8th of my total population, but a bit more prestige. And I am set to lose everything, not just the khagan title. I have a feeling its because I no longer count as a "pagan" religion after the reformation, and none of my children are eligable to inherit because non of them share my new non-pagan / dharmic religion. I'm gonna try having a kid with a concubine / seducing one up, which should mean it will come out as my new religion and so be eligable to inherit the khanate, but lose the khagan title. Reformation is a real pain in the rear end for the succession issues it throws up, and the game could do a better job of explaining this. I was apparently right, my worst son converted to the new religion and he is now the heir of the whole shebang. Lovely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 15:57
|
|
|
SirPhoebos posted:I'm finally getting into CKII after having it in my Library for 6 years. Is Ireland still the recommended start for beginners? Ireland 1066 is a good start. Any earlier you'll have to start as tribal, which is its own game, and in that area specifically you'll have to deal with Vikings. If you look at a character, above their stats panel you'll see some of their overall information. One of the icons is a helmet, which indicates the amount of troops they can pull in. This counts personal, retinue, and vassal leve I believe, but not mercenaries, holy orders and the like that they can purchase.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 16:04
|
|
|
Started a new game, and used the console to reform Norse, Romunva and Slavic, along with having the Byzantines mending the schism, just to see what kind of weirdness might happen
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Iceatollah posted:I was apparently right, my worst son converted to the new religion and he is now the heir of the whole shebang. Lovely. Godamn that's weird. I've never known religion to be a factor in nomad succession. I even dug through the wiki and I can't find any mention of it at all. I'd love to know exactly how this works myself. Randaconda posted:Started a new game, and used the console to reform Norse, Romunva and Slavic, along with having the Byzantines mending the schism, just to see what kind of weirdness might happen I'm betting some serious blobbing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 16:16
|
|
|
Honky Dong Country posted:Godamn that's weird. I've never known religion to be a factor in nomad succession. I even dug through the wiki and I can't find any mention of it at all. I'd love to know exactly how this works myself. Its super weird, I already had the khaganate pass from Tengri to Buddhist once already. Perhaps, seeing that I set "temporal" and became the head of the Tengri religion, the game was freaking out that I didn't have any eligable successors to that title? Like the mechanics in place to stop the Caliph becoming Catholic?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 16:33
|
|
|
Major Isoor posted:Hey, just a quick question (bit of a newbie question, but I haven't used gavelkind in forever) but if -for example- I have three duchies and three sons under gavelkind, if I give two sons the secondary duchies prior to my death, will the last son inherit my remaining duchy upon my death, without my other sons getting additional slices of the pie? You cannot land your primary heir under gavelkind.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 16:41
|
|
|
Another newbie question: The built in tutorial made fabricating claims look really easy, but on the couple of starts that I tried, my Chancellor was topping at 10%/year odds of success. Is that normal or are there ways to game fabrication chances to make them more likely?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
SirPhoebos posted:Another newbie question: The built in tutorial made fabricating claims look really easy, but on the couple of starts that I tried, my Chancellor was topping at 10%/year odds of success. Is that normal or are there ways to game fabrication chances to make them more likely? It's hit or miss. The better the chancellor the better the odds. Plus they get bribed by the target with some regularity. If you start noticing that your chancellor has more money than he should (bribes are usually 50 gold, and an unlanded chancellor shouldn't have dick for income, so it's a dead giveaway) then pick him up and reset him. Every time you reset the fabricate claim order the target will have to re-bribe him. As a result I generally reset the order periodically anyway, bribe or no bribe. If you're real lucky, a chancellor set to fabricate on a duchy capital will poo poo out a claim on the whole duchy and not just the county! Technowolf posted:You cannot land your primary heir under gavelkind. I think his intention is to give the non-primary heir the shittier titles to try and guide what the primary heir ends up with a little better. Iceatollah posted:Its super weird, I already had the khaganate pass from Tengri to Buddhist once already. Perhaps, seeing that I set "temporal" and became the head of the Tengri religion, the game was freaking out that I didn't have any eligable successors to that title? Like the mechanics in place to stop the Caliph becoming Catholic? The religious head title isn't set as your primary is it? I mean I doubt it's this, since khaganates are empire-level titles, but figured I'd ask. E: Man my current Doge is one holy somebitch. He's been with the Benedictines so there's all those wonderful traits that got him labeled "the Blessed" while he's still alive as well as being gifted a saint's fingerbone. Then my chancellor went off and found the Bones of St. Peter. After that I bribed an abbot to let me steal the Crown of Thorns (alright so between that and having a few people murdered maybe he's not so pious when the door's closed.) Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Aug 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
Why does the Pope hate me so much for asking for a religious war? It was against some Caliph who hated me and had a lot of troops, so I was hoping to declaw him a bit. We won, although the declawing wasn't really effected. My miscalculation. But how come the Pope hates my guts to the tune of a full -100, and subsequently excommunication, for asking for that war?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 23:19
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Why does the Pope hate me so much for asking for a religious war? It was against some Caliph who hated me and had a lot of troops, so I was hoping to declaw him a bit. We won, although the declawing wasn't really effected. My miscalculation. But how come the Pope hates my guts to the tune of a full -100, and subsequently excommunication, for asking for that war? Most of the time when you get some kind of favor from the pope his opinion of you is going to take a hit. I'm pretty sure that this is to keep you from getting his good opinion and abusing the gently caress out of it repeatedly. A giant war against a Caliph is a pretty big ask so you're not gonna be getting anything from him any time soon. Don't think I've ever seen a full -100 followed be excommunication though. What's the malus say exactly?
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
In my game I've had Santiago in the empire for quite a while, and had made sure that my vassals had cleared the weird Abbasid infestation from one of the churches. Nevertheless, for the last couple decades my occasional check of Catholic Moral Authority has placed Santiago as only partially held, and I checked and I checked and repeatedly confirmed that yes everybody's my vassal and I just couldn't understand what the problem was. It turns out that Galicia was controlled by a bunch of Jewish lords and ladies, they'd installed Rabbis in the temples, and thus the game counted Santiago as only partially Catholic controlled. Well. Solvable problem, that. Santiago and Galicia are now firmly in Catholic hands after a truly gratuitous number of title revocations when the Galicia viceroyalty ran out, and any other Jews in positions of power have firm cause to hate my guts for the next several decades. They hadn't done anything to me, their viceroy consistently liked me just fine and hadn't caused me any problems nor had bordergored like certain other Spanish viceroys. But I had to cater to the prejudices of the realm, which held that if a different religious group was administering a province for me then it wasn't owned by my choice of religion. Bit of a weird flex, but what's imperial power good for not occasionally abused to harm an entirely innocent, well behaved minority I guess.
|
|
#
?
Aug 13, 2019 23:50
|
|
|
Honky Dong Country posted:Most of the time when you get some kind of favor from the pope his opinion of you is going to take a hit. I'm pretty sure that this is to keep you from getting his good opinion and abusing the gently caress out of it repeatedly. A giant war against a Caliph is a pretty big ask so you're not gonna be getting anything from him any time soon. Don't think I've ever seen a full -100 followed be excommunication though. What's the malus say exactly? Yeah makes sense to avoid abuse of the mechanic. I guess I was surprised the Pope wasn't all up for some crusadey type poo poo. The target did have about 64k troops, so maybe that's enough to push to that level of ire. That and it's the Pope's prererogative to be a complete gently caress. The malus says "Asked for Religious War". It appears that it won't expire for another 29 years. On a similarish, semi-inverted note, is it me, or do people who like you a lot also often slander you? I assume when you are "offered proof" of someone "visciously slandering" you, this is you catching the bastardy annoying "vicious rumours" modifier at its genesis, right? If so, do you need to expose the person to stop the modifier occurring? The other options are threatening them with exposure or keeping the info to myself. Anyway, I've just been offered proof and the culprit has a +100 liking of me! She is a queen vassal of mine, and also my Hermetic apprentice. OneSizeFitsAll fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:03
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:Yeah makes sense to avoid abuse of the mechanic. I guess I was surprised the Pope wasn't all up for some crusadey type poo poo. The target did have about 64k troops, so maybe that's enough to push to that level of ire. That and it's the Pope's prererogative to be a complete gently caress. Yep that's definitely just to keep you from milking the pope's good opinion like no tomorrow. Resulting in excommunication seems like serious overkill though. And don't be surprised about your vassals just generally being dicks. Unless they really like you, they're pretty much always going to be looking out for number one. They'll undermine their liege and fellow vassals and just generally make a nuisance of themselves. To be fair though, if you're not doing the same as a vassal yourself then you're loving up. I don't always be a complete asswipe to my liege unless I'm ready to well and truly gently caress em' but you better believe that when I"m on the council I'm always a Malcontent and I join every Increase Council Power faction I can forever. If you don't you'll end up with that prick securing absolute rule and/or outlawing vassal wars. Half the time it still happens because your fellow Councillors are stupid. So yeah it's no surprise that you're getting slandered and yeah that's vicious rumors malus being born. If you take the intrigue focus (not the seduction one) and use the Spy On decision on somebody you'll get a buncha pop ups letting you say poo poo about your target like that they're gay or they're screwing goats or going full Elizabeth Bathory or something. I use that focus a lot when a lot of murder is required because it'll also pop with options to throw your target in jail, hire somebody to murder them, or even give you an excuse to revoke a title from a vassal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:40
|
|
|
What's an easyish start for someone getting back into this game that isn't Ireland or the British isles? I picked up the DLC Humble Bundle and I'm looking for a low-stress character that I can play while figuring out all of the new poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:47
|
|
|
Honky Dong Country posted:Yep that's definitely just to keep you from milking the pope's good opinion like no tomorrow. Resulting in excommunication seems like serious overkill though. This is true but all I'll say is that with a +100 opinion of me, she must be one cold, Machiavellian bitch. What about stopping the malus then - I guess I have to expose her? The other two options mean keeping it private that she's done it. Also is there a way to increase the likelihood that you are offered proof in the first place? Scheming with my spymaster maybe?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:49
|
|
|
The character who offered the proof might be (almost definitely is) trying to frame your apprentice.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:53
|
|
|
OneSizeFitsAll posted:This is true but all I'll say is that with a +100 opinion of me, she must be one cold, Machiavellian bitch. What about stopping the malus then - I guess I have to expose her? The other two options mean keeping it private that she's done it. McGavin posted:The character who offered the proof might be (almost definitely is) trying to frame your apprentice. This is quite possible, yeah. But even if it's true unless you're having serious opinion problems with your vassals, I wouldn't worry about it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 00:58
|
|
|
TheOneAndOnlyT posted:What's an easyish start for someone getting back into this game that isn't Ireland or the British isles? I picked up the DLC Humble Bundle and I'm looking for a low-stress character that I can play while figuring out all of the new poo poo. Matilda of Tuscany or Roger of Apulia in 1066 would be pretty good for what you're asking. Both are small enough to be easily graspable but large enough that you can bully your neighbors without much trouble. They're both also in good positions where you can get really ambitious with them if you want once you're comfortable with the game.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 01:11
|
|
|
Has anyone else witnessed the People's Crusade actually succeeding? Since in my new "Haesteinn of I've seen it happen in the past, but drat, I thought it was almost guaranteed to fail - much like in real life! Still; assuming they survive long enough for me to get enough ships to carry a large force in one go, they'll make for a nice and ripe raiding target at least 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 04:01
|
|
|
Major Isoor posted:Has anyone else witnessed the People's Crusade actually succeeding? Since in my new "Haesteinn of I don't know about that crusade specifically but I've seen the Children's crusade succeeding. Complete with angels descending from the heavens to smite muslims and all. Now that i think about it maybe that had something to do with the Norse Jerusalem owning Saxony...
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 05:07
|
|
|
Yami Fenrir posted:I don't know about that crusade specifically but I've seen the Children's crusade succeeding. Complete with angels descending from the heavens to smite muslims and all. hahaha wow, I've gotta see that happen! I kinda hope the muslims get their act together and push the peasants out of Jerusalem, now. Just so I can (hopefully) see some more crusade shenanigans!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 05:20
|
|
|
Yeah the children's crusade succeeding is pretty nuts. If you become its patron and pour the appropriate amount of money into it to actually get it to the target that thing spawns with an insane amount of troops and one hell of a leader. I've seen it work twice and both times the little bastard had so many men it was a slam dunk.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 11:49
|
|
|
in my one and only and current byzantium game i supported the childrens crusade at every point possible and they succeeded. they slowly got murdered after that by the muslims though until they ended up at a single county that i think one of my dukes ate
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 13:32
|
|
|
Yami Fenrir posted:
This was after my children's crusade event line. I still have no idea how the hell they became norse, and ended up taking over saxony. Maybe one of the children in the crusade was secretly norse? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 16:15
|
|
|
Davincie posted:in my one and only and current byzantium game i supported the childrens crusade at every point possible and they succeeded. they slowly got murdered after that by the muslims though until they ended up at a single county that i think one of my dukes ate Yeah their winnings don't stand up well over time. I even tried on the second one I saw to keep an alliance with them and try to keep them afloat like a good christian ruler but it was hopeless. I think regular crusader lords tend to hold up better because they've already got some power besides their new holy land turf and usually some alliances and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 16:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 20:12 |
|
|
Hello one of the humblebundle newbies here  Some buildings give boni like +40% attack to heavy cav. Are those global, only for troops currently standing on that county, or only for troops raised in that barony? I started my first serious game as a king (Bavaria) and have a reminder thing on top that says I can create two Duke titles. When would be a good time to do that? I seem to be just fine with counts and barons. Gavelkind looks very scary, so the thing to do is murder your wife and/or all children after the first one yes? Or alternatively join an order and do the celibacy thing to end the killing. Do my vassals build upgrades at some point, or do I have to pay for all their poo poo like walls or a school myself? Cheers sauer kraut fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 19:49
|
|
