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536 posted:Are the people of Venezuela hungry today yes. that's the point of the embargo and sanctions quote:and have they been since at least 2018? not sure. USA propaganda makes it tough to get a clear read on the situation
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Aug 13, 2019 14:14
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fnox posted:It's loving sad, really. You really have nothing else, and the reason why you keep avoiding talking about Maduro's treatment of indigenous people is because, unlike the Orlando Figuera case you cling to, these hundreds of dead are of no use to your agenda. Conversely, they are useful to yours. And that's not sad at all.
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Aug 13, 2019 15:25
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Condiv posted:not sure. USA propaganda makes it tough to get a clear read on the situation They have. I mean, they have. This is not in contention. There’s been shortages since 2013 and I lived through them. The fact that you can’t explain those shortages with “sanctions” should undo your entire thesis. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Conversely, they are useful to yours. And that's not sad at all. Maduro will pay for what he did, once he’s removed. The sheer absurdity of focusing on a single violent event for years when thousands have been murdered by Maduro’s forces within that period shouldn’t be understated. It’s ridiculous, it’s sad, it’s the result of indoctrination. fnox fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 15:42
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fnox posted:They have. I mean, they have. This is not in contention. There’s been shortages since 2013 and I lived through them. The fact that you can’t explain those shortages with “sanctions” should undo your entire thesis. I don’t consider you a particularly trustworthy source since you’re extremely ok with the embargo and Bolton making sure there are no peace talks
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Aug 13, 2019 16:02
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Condiv posted:I don’t consider you a particularly trustworthy source since you’re extremely ok with the embargo and Bolton making sure there are no peace talks Ask any of the 4 million people who have left. Go to any Venezuelan, in person, and see if a single one will give you any answer other than “you would have to be insane to say otherwise”. Dear god are you loving seriously asking if there were food shortages before the sanctions? Are you this delusional?
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Aug 13, 2019 16:19
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fnox posted:Ask any of the 4 million people who have left. Go to any Venezuelan, in person, and see if a single one will give you any answer other than “you would have to be insane to say otherwise”. I’m definitely not asking you anything. I don’t think someone who’s happy with the US starving his country while he is comfortable in Sweden is a trustworthy source. And yes I’m not sure on the food shortages. The opposition supporters claim there were, but said supporters have made lots of claims, like maduro burned food aid, maduro ordered Cuban doctors to withhold medically needed oxygen for votes, etc. Of course, I guess not trusting the opposition on everything they say must seem delusional for someone who thinks Bolton and trump are trustworthy
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Aug 13, 2019 16:29
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fnox posted:Maduro will pay for what he did, once he’s removed. The sheer absurdity of focusing on a single violent event for years when thousands have been murdered by Maduro’s forces within that period shouldn’t be understated. It’s ridiculous, it’s sad, it’s the result of indoctrination. Okay, so it's Rwanda over there, is what you're saying, right?
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Aug 13, 2019 16:39
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all it took was one ship being turned away, and the starvation of the Venezuelan people went from atrocity that must be corrected at any cost, to a necessary sacrifice in order to bring them freedom from Maduro. imagine the things fnox will be supporting a year from now.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:39
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Okay, so it's Rwanda over there, is what you're saying, right? Go see it for yourself. I’m not even going to entertain this denialism, it’s loving offensively stupid. There’s 4 million expats, find one, ask them. It is ridiculous to say that there was no hunger in Venezuela before the sanctions and you should be laughed out of any discussion for suggesting that.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:45
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e: nm
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Aug 13, 2019 16:48
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fnox posted:Go see it for yourself. I’m not even going to entertain this denialism, it’s loving offensively stupid. There’s 4 million expats, find one, ask them. I don’t think anyone’s said that though fnox
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Aug 13, 2019 16:56
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Condiv posted:I don’t think anyone’s said that though fnox This is exactly what you’re saying. You’re saying there wasn’t any starvation before the sanctions. That’s what you’re saying with your little snipe from C-SPAM. I want you to go ask a Venezuelan, any Venezuelan, and hear what they have to say about that.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:00
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fnox posted:Ok. How the gently caress do you not know? What loving possible reason would you have to doubt the fact that there were shortages in Venezuela since 2013? I’m telling you to go find a Venezuelan, and ask them, what’s your excuse? I want you to find them, and tell them, that you’re not sure if they starved for realsies or if they’re actually just agents of the Empire. Hmm, if only I had posted about this earlier in the page  Condiv posted:not sure. USA propaganda makes it tough to get a clear read on the situation Oh, there we go. Glad to have cleared things up for you fnox Condiv fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 17:10
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fnox posted:Go see it for yourself. I’m not even going to entertain this denialism, it’s loving offensively stupid. There’s 4 million expats, find one, ask them. I asked you a question. And it's wasn't really about hunger. It was about people being murdered by the government, like the indigenous people you just mentioned. Like in Rwanda in 1994. You are saying it's like that? That was the question.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:11
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Condiv posted:No, I literally said I don’t know fnox. Just because I don’t trust your take doesn’t mean I believe the opposite of what you do. Ok. How the gently caress do you not know? What loving possible reason would you have to doubt the fact that there were shortages in Venezuela since 2013? I’m telling you to go find a Venezuelan, and ask them, what’s your excuse? I want you to find them, and tell them, that you’re not sure if they starved for realsies or if they’re actually just agents of the Empire. Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:I asked you a question. And it's wasn't really about hunger. It was about people being murdered by the government, like the indigenous people you just mentioned. Like in Rwanda in 1994. You are saying it's like that? That was the question. The UN says that. Not me. Read the report.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:14
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fnox posted:Ok. How the gently caress do you not know? What loving possible reason would you have to doubt the fact that there were shortages in Venezuela since 2013? I’m telling you to go find a Venezuelan, and ask them, what’s your excuse? I want you to find them, and tell them, that you’re not sure if they starved for realsies or if they’re actually just agents of the Empire. I'm pretty sure I've explained why I'm unsure in posts on this very page. Hell, you've quoted said posts. Try reading. In any case, regardless of if there was starvation pre-sanctions or not, and regardless of who was responsible for said starvation if it occurred, today we are looking at mass starvation caused by the opposition working alongside monsters like bolton and trump. and for some reason, you still support the opposition despite them starving the people of venezuela (even worse than before if there was starvation back in 2013 as you claim). I can only imagine you still support them because you're safe in another country and it's you that's not starving, but maybe you have other reasons?
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Aug 13, 2019 17:30
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fnox posted:The UN says that. Not me. Read the report. The report doesn't mention Rwanda at all? I am asking YOU if YOU think so. What is the trap you think you're avoiding here?
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Aug 13, 2019 17:32
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:The report doesn't mention Rwanda at all? the Maduro government is probably less genocidal than the civil war era Hutu government 
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Aug 13, 2019 17:39
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Don't help him.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:42
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Don't help him. you're the one making Rwanda comparisons to imply the treatment of Venezuelan indigenous people isn't that bad
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Aug 13, 2019 17:43
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Most D&D posters will immediately get upset and demand to know what your angle is if you ever ask them questions about what they believe in a context that implies you might disagree. It is seemingly viewed as a dirty trick to ask someone who disagrees with you to sincerely explain themselves.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:47
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Don't help him. You loving made the Rwanda comparison, not me, I’m saying that the indigenous people are being murdered under Maduro and are suffering disproportionally. I don’t care about comparing, I care about it being recognized. Condiv posted:I'm pretty sure I've explained why I'm unsure in posts on this very page. Hell, you've quoted said posts. Try reading. Ask a Venezuelan. I’m giving you the answer here. I loving want you to ask them that same question. And no, if there was starvation before the sanctions matters a lot, because it would mean that you’re full of poo poo, and it would mean that you’re wrong in backing Maduro. This dog whistling is loving pathetic, come on little man, were people starving before the sanctions or not? fnox fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 17:53
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GreyjoyBastard posted:you're the one making Rwanda comparisons to imply the treatment of Venezuelan indigenous people isn't that bad Even if that were true, which it isn't, answering yes or no would do nothing to support such an implication.
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Aug 13, 2019 17:56
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Even if that were true, which it isn't, answering yes or no would do nothing to support such an implication. Did you read the report? Is Maduro killing indigenous peoples or not?
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Aug 13, 2019 17:58
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fnox posted:Did you read the report? Is Maduro killing indigenous peoples or not? Sure, why not. What's next? Notice how I answered the loving question? How about you return the favor.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:01
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fnox posted:Ask a Venezuelan. I’m giving you the answer here. I loving want you to ask them that same question. And no, if there was starvation before the sanctions matters a lot, because it would mean that you’re full of poo poo, and it would mean that you’re wrong in backing Maduro. it would mean I'm full of poo poo on what? the opposition intentionally making things worse? the opposition working with trump to starve venezuelans en masse? sorry, but that's the point of the sanctions and the embargo, regardless of the situation before. as for you begging me to decide the truth on "were people starving before the sanctions or not" I'm not going to for the reasons I already told you. finally, I don't support maduro. unlike how you're definitely supporting guaido and the opposition who are starving your country, I'm anti-interventionist and against trump's sanctions and embargoes.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:02
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Sure, why not. What's next? Oh thank you kindly good sir for recognizing crimes against humanity, how brave of you! Should Maduro face trial? Condiv I’m not going to answer you in C-SPAM lol, you have something to say about me, say it here. Were people starving before the sanctions or not, Condiv? Yes or no?
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Aug 13, 2019 18:04
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fnox posted:Oh thank you kindly good sir for recognizing crimes against humanity, how brave of you! Should Maduro face trial? Crimes against humanity? Ah, so it is Rwanda, then! It's a genocide. It's a holocaust. Is that it? Yes or no, fnox.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:06
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fnox posted:Condiv I’m not going to answer you in C-SPAM lol, you have something to say about me, say it here. i already did. I think it's messed up that you support the opposition starving venezuelans while you're in sweden. quote:Were people starving before the sanctions or not, Condiv? Yes or no? I already answered this too. I'm not sure. how are you not getting that? I've said it like 3 times now
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Aug 13, 2019 18:07
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Condiv posted:the opposition intentionally making things worse? the opposition working with trump to starve venezuelans en masse? How are they doing these things? I can actually think of a passable answer, but I'm curious whether you can  Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Crimes against humanity? Ah, so it is Rwanda, then! It's a genocide. It's a holocaust. Is that it? Yes or no, fnox. Yes crimes against humanity, little bit rwanda, little bit genocide, no holocaust. I would assert that a better comparison is the treatment of indigenous people in the United States or a buncha other places. Some ethnic cleansing, a whole lot of resource theft, a lot of state violence under various pretexts, a whole lot of outsourced violence. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 18:10
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Condiv posted:i already did. I think it's messed up that you support the opposition starving venezuelans while you're in sweden. I am in Sweden because I had to start over with no money to get my mother, my father and my grandmother out of the country because Maduro destroyed it. This is not a vacation for me, this is exile, I left alone, with nothing but a bag of clothes and a laptop, and I made it work. You wouldn’t know because you haven’t had to struggle for a thing in your entire life you loving American hypocrite. Did they starve, yes or no? Find the answers, don’t come back until you have them you coward.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:11
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GreyjoyBastard posted:How are they doing these things? I can actually think of a passable answer, but I'm curious whether you can working with the trump administration that are levying sanctions and embargoes designed to starve venezuelans. you could say the opposition are puppets of the US government since bolton announced that peace negotiations would not go forward till maduro resigned and was not up for election, but someone got mad that I wasn't giving the opposition enough agency so now it's clear the opposition told trump they didn't want to pursue peace talks anymore if maduro was in an election and would rather have the us government embargo and starve their citizens.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:13
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fnox posted:I am in Sweden because I had to start over with no money to get my mother, my father and my grandmother out of the country because Maduro destroyed it. This is not a vacation for me, this is exile, I left alone, with nothing but a bag of clothes and a laptop, and I made it work. You wouldn’t know because you haven’t had to struggle for a thing in your entire life you loving American hypocrite. thank heaven that now that you are safely ensconced elsewhere, it has become a good thing to starve Venezuelans. would have been really inconvenient if you'd been one of the Acceptable Losses (tm) to bring about freedom. amazing how people get a lot more eager to call for mass murder of their countrymen, once they know they're safely out of the line of fire.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:14
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Condiv posted:I already answered this too. I'm not sure. how are you not getting that? I've said it like 3 times now This is a problem with a solution, right? Condiv posted:working with the trump administration that are levying sanctions and embargoes designed to starve venezuelans. Humanitarian aid is specifically excluded from the embargo. That means food, clothing, medicine, etc... BigFactory fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 18:15
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:thank heaven that now that you are safely ensconced elsewhere, it has become a good thing to starve Venezuelans. would have been really inconvenient if you'd been one of the Acceptable Losses (tm) to bring about freedom. You did not give a single gently caress when we were starving in 2016, you don’t get a say. You didn’t back any of the previous democratic attempts to replace Maduro, you didn’t back anything other than Maduro, and you have no solutions to offer anyone. Call me whatever the gently caress you want, but bring something to the table, or stand aside.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:17
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fnox posted:I am in Sweden because I had to start over with no money to get my mother, my father and my grandmother out of the country because Maduro destroyed it. This is not a vacation for me, this is exile, I left alone, with nothing but a bag of clothes and a laptop, and I made it work. You wouldn’t know because you haven’t had to struggle for a thing in your entire life you loving American hypocrite. sure I've had to struggle for things. unlike you I'm not wishing war or starvation on the people in the US while I don't have to suffer the consequences. also, don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to complain about maduro hurting venezuela and at the same time cheer as the opposition tears everything apart? quote:Did they starve, yes or no? Find the answers, don’t come back until you have them you coward. sorry, I'm not going to make that determination for a while now. the evidence is not clear enough. you can deal with that and deal with the fact that whatever the situation was before, the opposition has made it worse intentionally.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:20
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BigFactory posted:This is a problem with a solution, right? no, not really. the US is in the middle of attempting to regime change venezuela and has been for a long time (since at least 2012, but probably earlier). the situation is unclear to me and I don't think it's something I can make a strong determination on yet. making such a determination isn't really necessary either, as whatever the truth is, it doesn't change that the US needs to stop trying to regime change venezuela. quote:Humanitarian aid is specifically excluded from the embargo. That means food, clothing, medicine, etc... how noble. starve a country and then offer aid that doesn't match starvation you caused.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:24
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Condiv posted:sure I've had to struggle for things. unlike you I'm not wishing war or starvation on the people in the US while I don't have to suffer the consequences. also, don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to complain about maduro hurting venezuela and at the same time cheer as the opposition tears everything apart? You haven’t had to struggle for poo poo, you don’t know what it’s like to be afraid for your life, for your family’s life, knowing you’re helpless to stop it. You don’t know what it’s like to have your mother call you in tears because her and your father nearly got killed in a kidnapping, and that you’re unable to do poo poo because you’re stuck in a tiny room in Sweden trying desperately to land a job so that you can afford rent for the next month and a plane ticket out for them. You don’t loving know, don’t you dare compare yourself. Did people starve or not Condiv? I want you to give me an answer, you brought this up, you answer it. Tell me, is what I saw true or not? Do you know better than me what was occurring in front of my very eyes?
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Aug 13, 2019 18:26
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Condiv posted:working with the trump administration that are levying sanctions and embargoes designed to starve venezuelans. False dichotomy. The US taking an action does not mean the opposition as a coalition* or its negotiating team has instructed it. admittedly guaido is poo poo on messaging about all this, so I guess "saying nice things about the US" counts as "working to starve the Venezuelan people" Nor was it the opposition that suspended talks! At first I had difficulty finding a source that wasn't the imperialists at NYT, WaPo, or Reuters, but then I remembered an ideologically acceptable site: https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14619 quote:Venezuelan Gov’t Suspends Dialogue as EU Criticizes US Embargo I would like to note that the EU aren't the only backers of the negotiations etc, there are a bunch of Latin American countries in the ICG. * - the coalition's not exactly unified and Guaido / the negotiators seem to be walking a bit of a line, mollifying the radical pro-intervention folks while trying to maintain the moral high ground / keep the ICG participants etc on board with them and with election demands -- As annoying as I sometimes find Venezuelanalysis, here's an article that's maybe positive and may cause some folks in this thread to suddenly oppose the PSUV's suppression strategies (campesino means something like 'peasant farmer'): https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/14620 quote:Venezuelan Campesinos' March on Miraflores Blocked by Police
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Aug 13, 2019 18:28
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Condiv posted:no, not really. the US is in the middle of attempting to regime change venezuela and has been for a long time (since at least 2012, but probably earlier). the situation is unclear to me and I don't think it's something I can make a strong determination on yet. making such a determination isn't really necessary either, as whatever the truth is, it doesn't change that the US needs to stop trying to regime change venezuela. I would think that a little research in Venezuelan newspapers might help. Just because the situation is unclear to you doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be investigating it, right? I’d think the opposite actually.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:30
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