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PT6A posted:"because it's good, and proud Italian though I am, I want all the best stuff in my restaurant." This is a good answer. A long wine list isn't necessarily a good wine list.
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Aug 4, 2019 11:33
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It’s possible that the steakhouse was forced to take the Napa chards in exchange for favorable prices on the Napa cabs. I think it’s rare that a restaurant somm has the financial freedom to put what they want on a list. Which is why one of my favorite restaurants in the world is owned by a somm who has been collecting cool poo poo for decades at reasonable pricesOla posted:This is a good answer. A long wine list isn't necessarily a good wine list. Agreed
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Aug 4, 2019 16:42
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got off on a technicality posted:It’s possible that the steakhouse was forced to take the Napa chards in exchange for favorable prices on the Napa cabs. I think it’s rare that a restaurant somm has the financial freedom to put what they want on a list. Which is why one of my favorite restaurants in the world is owned by a somm who has been collecting cool poo poo for decades at reasonable prices Yeah, that sounds quite plausible now that you mention it.
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Aug 5, 2019 19:22
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Ola posted:This is a good answer. A long wine list isn't necessarily a good wine list. To be honest, of the many virtues of that restaurant's winelist, brevity would happen to be fairly far down the list. As would affordability. It has its flaws, but it's clear that whoever was responsible for it just said "hey, we've got a lot of space and a lot of money, I want a lot of really loving good wine on here, that's my selection criteria." And as much as that's the easy way out, it still results in a pretty good wine list. There's less availability in what I'd call the "affordable" end of the list, but what's there is well-chosen.
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Aug 5, 2019 19:27
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got off on a technicality posted:Which is why one of my favorite restaurants in the world is owned by a somm who has been collecting cool poo poo for decades at reasonable prices This is a big part of what I look for too from a wine list, it means they have some vintage depth that one can choose from. I understand that for newer or more cash strapped restaurants it isn’t possible to compete in that sense so maybe it’s an unfair comparison, but I also don’t want to pay $100 for a 2016 cab sav that isn’t going to unwind for another another decade. Leads to a lot of pink, orange and white purchases if it’s a newer place.
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Aug 5, 2019 22:50
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Trimson Grondag 3 posted:Leads to a lot of pink, orange and white purchases if it’s a newer place.  (I haven't found an orange wine I enjoy yet  )
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Aug 6, 2019 06:21
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As someone who rarely likes orange wine, the only internationally available producer I'd recommend is Movia. Don't write the category off because you don't like Radikon or Gravner—they're outrageously overrated producers, especially Gravner. You're probably familiar with Georgian examples—I find them hit or miss (mostly miss), with enormous bottle variation. Australia is the most consistent producer of decent orange wine, but little is exported.
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Aug 6, 2019 12:35
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I don't see how Radikon could be considered overrated. It's close to a style originator. One might want something that is "less orange", but that's on you then. Like, it's not what I reach for if I want something refreshing or white-wine adjacent, but if you have a specific pairing in mind or you're going in with a "gently caress me up fam" mentality it fits the bill.
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Aug 6, 2019 13:26
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got off on a technicality posted:Which is why one of my favorite restaurants in the world is owned by a somm who has been collecting cool poo poo for decades at reasonable prices The Morris I bet? Paul's a good dude.
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Aug 8, 2019 00:48
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Crimson posted:The Morris I bet? Paul's a good dude. Got it in one The last time I was there he found me a 1973 Gattinara for outrageously cheap. Just a tremendous experience
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Aug 8, 2019 00:54
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Matt at Heirloom Cafe has some deep cuts, too. One of the best prix fixes in the bay imo. Re: Orange wine, I’ve always liked Coenobium as a standard - gets a little funky but not crazy out of line. Also domestically I had a Joseph Swan Vineyards Pinot Gris that nailed the skin contact balance.
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Aug 8, 2019 02:57
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Tried a Mayfly sauvignon blanc today. I had read that these are supposed to be refreshing, but I didn't really get that from my glass - tasted a little too acidic for me. On a positive note, I think I'm finally starting to understand the fruit notes reviewers like to mention. I could taste the citrus in that glass of sauvignon blanc when I couldn't do so for the reds I tried previously. I now realize it's because I live in a tropical country and haven't ever really tasted blackberries or blueberries before (aside from the fake cheesecake toppings  ).Have a Cline Zinfandel I'll try next weekend, then probably look at getting a bottle of this riesling since it's easily available here. Thanks by the way for all the great low-cost suggestions in the replies to my previous post - I'm looking out for those if ever they become available over here.
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Aug 12, 2019 02:20
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Acidity is the essence of freshness. I get that high-acid wines aren't for everyone, but a wine is refreshing because of its acidity first and foremost. Do you not find a squeeze of lemon in your water or on some fried fish very refreshing?
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Aug 12, 2019 18:08
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Kasumeat posted:Acidity is the essence of freshness. I get that high-acid wines aren't for everyone, but a wine is refreshing because of its acidity first and foremost. Do you not find a squeeze of lemon in your water or on some fried fish very refreshing? Using the lemon water as a point of comparison, I think the difference for me is drinking a glass of water with a slice or two of lemon (which I find refreshing) versus drinking a glass that's mostly lemon juice with no sugar - the latter just makes my mouth pucker in a bad way and is not enjoyable at all. The glass I had leaned more towards the latter than the former. Maybe I have a low tolerance for acidity? I'm not sure, but I'm willing to try a few other white varietals to figure it out.
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Aug 12, 2019 18:29
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anakha posted:Using the lemon water as a point of comparison, I think the difference for me is drinking a glass of water with a slice or two of lemon (which I find refreshing) versus drinking a glass that's mostly lemon juice with no sugar - the latter just makes my mouth pucker in a bad way and is not enjoyable at all. The glass I had leaned more towards the latter than the former. I suspect your tastes will evolve to tolerate more and more acidity / tannin over time. These days I cheerfully drink wine that would have been way too acidic for my liking 5 years ago. Many wine drinkers I know started with sweet/fruity Napa cabs, progressed to Bordeaux, and ended up in Burgundy/Piedmont
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Aug 13, 2019 06:21
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got off on a technicality posted:I suspect your tastes will evolve to tolerate more and more acidity / tannin over time. These days I cheerfully drink wine that would have been way too acidic for my liking 5 years ago. Many wine drinkers I know started with sweet/fruity Napa cabs, progressed to Bordeaux, and ended up in Burgundy/Piedmont That's entirely possible too - I read in an ESPN article that several NBA stars started out liking sweeter wines like riesling before their tastes evolved. Either way, figuring out my tastes and preferences is going to be a long-running and enjoyable experiment.
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Aug 13, 2019 07:54
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anakha posted:Using the lemon water as a point of comparison, I think the difference for me is drinking a glass of water with a slice or two of lemon (which I find refreshing) versus drinking a glass that's mostly lemon juice with no sugar - the latter just makes my mouth pucker in a bad way and is not enjoyable at all. The glass I had leaned more towards the latter than the former. You almost certainly do have a genetic predisposition towards disliking acidity, yeah. But your description makes it sound as if you experience acidity in a totally different way than other people. I wouldn't want to drink a glass of lemon juice, but I'd probably describe the experience as extremely refreshing. I think it really does speak to what is now becoming more and more accepted: when person X and person Y taste the same thing, it's not just a matter of them experiencing the same taste and person X liking it and person Y disliking it--they literally don't experience the same taste even though they're both tasting the same thing. And since you're new and still capable of being saved: despite the very common misuse, "varietal" is an adjective, not a noun. It means "of a single variety". The word you're looking for is "variety". Using "varietal" instead of "variety" sounds at best ignorant and at worst pretentious, and that combination is the worst kind of snobbery.
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Aug 14, 2019 00:40
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Unrelated aside for the Americans here: Are there any producers of Chardonnay in the US that are doing a reasonable impression of the modern, reductive, flinty style along the lines of Hubert Lamy, PYCM, et. al? I was living in Australia for a few months, and was really struck (no pun intended) by the quality of the Chardonnay there. There are producers making Chardonnay going for under $20 that are a mass-produced, more-than-acceptable replacement for white Burgundy. And without hesitation I'd say that there are literally dozens of examples, many priced at $30 or less, that are better than the best American Chardonnay I've ever had. Why is the US so bad at Chardonnay compared to Australia? Are there producers out there I'm unaware of? I've had many American Chardonnays I love, but they're almost always very expensive, and even the more elegant producers such as Hanzell, ABC, Montelena, etc., are still doing the classic creamy and richly-textured style, but simply a more elegant and toned-down version of it.
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Aug 14, 2019 00:57
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Kasumeat posted:And since you're new and still capable of being saved: despite the very common misuse, "varietal" is an adjective, not a noun. It means "of a single variety". The word you're looking for is "variety". Using "varietal" instead of "variety" sounds at best ignorant and at worst pretentious, and that combination is the worst kind of snobbery.  its usage as a noun dates back almost 80 years you prescriptivist nit
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Aug 14, 2019 01:12
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Kasumeat posted:Unrelated aside for the Americans here: Are there any producers of Chardonnay in the US that are doing a reasonable impression of the modern, reductive, flinty style along the lines of Hubert Lamy, PYCM, et. al? I was living in Australia for a few months, and was really struck (no pun intended) by the quality of the Chardonnay there. There are producers making Chardonnay going for under $20 that are a mass-produced, more-than-acceptable replacement for white Burgundy. And without hesitation I'd say that there are literally dozens of examples, many priced at $30 or less, that are better than the best American Chardonnay I've ever had. Why is the US so bad at Chardonnay compared to Australia? Are there producers out there I'm unaware of? I've had many American Chardonnays I love, but they're almost always very expensive, and even the more elegant producers such as Hanzell, ABC, Montelena, etc., are still doing the classic creamy and richly-textured style, but simply a more elegant and toned-down version of it. I have no idea why there are so few producers of American Chardonnay in the vein of PYCM, either. I'm a fan of Joe Davis' Arcadian winery for his Sleepy Hollow chardonnay that is very much done with what you're looking for as well as Walter Scott in Oregon that probably makes the best version of Chardonnay in the style that you're looking for. Unfortunately, both producers go for above $50.
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Aug 14, 2019 01:28
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Kasumeat posted:Unrelated aside for the Americans here: Are there any producers of Chardonnay in the US that are doing a reasonable impression of the modern, reductive, flinty style along the lines of Hubert Lamy, PYCM, et. al? I was living in Australia for a few months, and was really struck (no pun intended) by the quality of the Chardonnay there. There are producers making Chardonnay going for under $20 that are a mass-produced, more-than-acceptable replacement for white Burgundy. And without hesitation I'd say that there are literally dozens of examples, many priced at $30 or less, that are better than the best American Chardonnay I've ever had. Why is the US so bad at Chardonnay compared to Australia? Are there producers out there I'm unaware of? I've had many American Chardonnays I love, but they're almost always very expensive, and even the more elegant producers such as Hanzell, ABC, Montelena, etc., are still doing the classic creamy and richly-textured style, but simply a more elegant and toned-down version of it. Oregon Chardonnay is right up there. At a recent blind tasting, I got an Oregon producer mixed up with a Roulot ringer that I'd snuck into the flight Walter Scott, Goodfellow, and Evening Land are a couple of names to get you started Having said that, Roulot (also PYCM) is still tops for me. Haven't had any Coche yet so I can't comment there (efb)
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Aug 14, 2019 01:30
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Varietal as a synonym for variety is definitely incorrect, but it's so widespread. I hear master sommelier friends use the term in that way. I think it makes you sound pretentious to use it like that. Like the word variety isn't good enough or fancy enough for the wine world. As someone deeply entrenched in California coastal Chardonnay and Pinot, I really don't know anyone consistently getting good amounts of reduction on their Chardonnay. I really wish it was more commonplace because I loves me some PYCM. It's really ironic too because Pierre-Yves worked under Dave Ramey and counts him as a mentor. One of the only examples of CA Chard with well done reduction I tasted recently was 2014 Grgich Hills Chardonnay, surprisingly. Sometimes Ceritas can have it, but not to a large degree. They're all scared of making a wine that smells like cabbage, but they're not even coming close to that threshold. I wish more of the local winemakers would take some risks and stress the gently caress out of some ferments to induce some beautiful struck matchstick reduction in their wines.
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Aug 14, 2019 07:14
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idk if you want to stress your ferments to pull out reductive qualities vs just work as carefully as possible to protect from oxygen and maybe age on the lees. Stressed ferments seem like they'd be a lot harder to control and lead to a whole poo poo-filled cornucopia of bad results. Believe me, learned that through experience. You can get plenty of reductive qualities out of aging reduction-prone grapes on their lees (without stirring/batonnage), and if you're trying to find that matchstick/flinty expression it's probably a lot easier to do it with the slower aging process than a faster, active ferment. Easier to pay attention to what's happening, easier to catch things before they fall down a hole into stinky swamp-rear end baby diaper. I think Ian Brand makes a few Chardonnays out of Monterey County; I feel like he'd be a potentially good winemaker to check - a lot easier to aim for moderate ripeness and good acid in a place like Monterey than in Sonoma.
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Aug 14, 2019 08:09
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Huh, I thought varietal was a generally accepted term because of how often I saw it in the stuff I've been reading online. Thanks for the correction. E: vv WTF I'm even more confused now. anakha fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 12:11
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Wine Spectator has been spreading lies, I guess. https://www.winespectator.com/articles/whats-the-difference-between-a-variety-and-a-varietal-51666
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Aug 14, 2019 12:23
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idiotsavant posted:idk if you want to stress your ferments to pull out reductive qualities vs just work as carefully as possible to protect from oxygen and maybe age on the lees. Stressed ferments seem like they'd be a lot harder to control and lead to a whole poo poo-filled cornucopia of bad results. Believe me, learned that through experience. There was definitely a thing in the mid-2000s where excessive sulfur was used on a few bottlings as a result of the premox scare, "trapping" wines in a permanently reduced and distinctly poo-filled state. I want to say it was Leflaive maybe got off on a technicality fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 15:27
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anakha posted:Huh, I thought varietal was a generally accepted term because of how often I saw it in the stuff I've been reading online. Thanks for the correction. Varietal is an adjective, variety is a noun. A varietal wine is made from a grape variety.
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Aug 14, 2019 18:51
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got off on a technicality posted:I am not an expert obviously, but as far as I know this stuff (i.e. reduction via careful elevage) is what white Burgundy producers are doing, as opposed to reduction by loving with the ferments. Isn't fermentation naturally reductive in any case? Reduction from elevage happens with your lees absorbing oxygen in the finished wine and also creating sulfur compounds, but at a much slower rate and without the risk of stuck ferments or other issues.
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Aug 14, 2019 19:08
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I highly recommend Jamie Goode's new book Flawless - Understanding Faults In Wine. I won't pretend I fully comprehend it because even the author and his interview subjects don't proclaim to fully understand it. His section on reduction delves deep into the issue, and seems to come down on the side that most of the volatile sulfur compounds in wine are created by the yeasts during fermentation, and is typically caused by the yeast not having access to enough nitrogen in the must. Tying into what you said idiotsavant, Goode explains that maybe this can be exacerbated by storage conditions afterwards, and what likely happens is the formerly chemically entrapped volatile sulfur compounds can become unbound, and able to be sensed and smelled. He interviewed Jean-Marc Roulot and got the breakdown for the so-called "Roulot Method". It would definitely seem that his finishing the wine in stainless steel seems to draw out reduction, but perhaps those compounds being present at all still ties back to his local yeast strains and the nitrogen content of his musts due to growing conditions.
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Aug 14, 2019 23:53
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Thank you guys for the US Chardonnay recs, I'll keep an eye out for those. Regarding reduction, the juice itself definitely plays a huge factor. There's a local winery here in Ontario that makes one bottling of Chardonnay from entirely Niagara fruit and one from entirely Prince Edward County fruit. The latter is significantly cooler and extremely limestone-rich and comes out extremely reductive, and the former shows just a touch. The winemaking is identical for both bottlings, though I'm not familiar with the details. The winemaker did train at Hubert Lamy and Newton-Johnson, both known for their reductive style. On the other hand, it can't possibly just be terroir, because otherwise Australia wouldn't be able to produce the style consistently while the US doesn't.
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Aug 15, 2019 03:00
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A really lovely explanation (I make natural wine, I am definitely not a chemist or biologist so consider everything in layman's terms): metabolically the yeasts normally jump on basic building-block stuff like the basic sugars in grapes and basic elemental compounds etc and make roughly 50/50 alcohol/CO2 plus a tiny bit of other stuff that has actual flavor effects. When a yeast population (ie fermentation) is stressed - by lack of nutrients compared to what the yeast normally requires, to lack of available oxygen in the must, to excessive must temperatures, etc - it can switch metabolic pathways, and that switch causes the yeast to produce a bunch of gnarly sulfur compounds that end up getting even gnarlier if you don't do anything to treat them. IIRC sulfides become disulfides become mercaptans, and basically "matchstick" becomes "stinky boiled eggs" becomes "someone ate all the cheese they could and took a giant poo poo on my front porch". "The juice itself" IS terroir. Reductiveness as terroir is... uh... complicated, though. I think reductiveness in wine will always primarily speak of process, as vinification decisions lead directly to the amount of reductiveness one might get from a wine. "Oh, this Syrah is always very reductive." Yes, well, you limited aeration during fermentation to a strict minimum, your presses were as quick as possible to limit oxygen exposure, you went into stainless steel that doesn't breathe at all, and you left the wine on its lees for two years. Congratulations, you made a wine that smells like burning tires and electrical fires. In a similar way, afaik lab yeasts generally require higher minimal nutrient limits than "native" (i loving hate that term so much) yeasts, so if you grow your chardonnay on a cooler hillside somewhere and inoculate with lab stuff, your ferments may or may not generate more sulfides. Is that terroir? And as a little wrap-up two-factor drop of shittiness, a lot of CA winemakers are under a lot more pressure to sell some wine and pay their rent/grape costs. I'm sure all you industry guys know that it's way easier to sell fruity Chard to more people than flinty, high-acid gunsmoke. It's infinitely more satisfying when you meet the guy or gal who loves the gunsmoke and who appreciates you for leading them to it, but it's way easier making $$$$ with some fruity stuff that maybe has a little (or a lot of) oak on top. And that gunsmoke means some extra time in barrel, which is time spent occupying rented space and time spent not getting sold as wine. And oops, you went too far and now you have stinky eggs and need to RO or fine with copper or do more poo poo to save your messed-up wine. I'm sure you can find flinty CA chard out there, but I'm sure that it isn't too easy either. Like I said, I think Ian Brand did like a 4+ year barrel-aged chard. I know Chad Stock at Minimus in Oregon has hosed around with all sorts of different techniques; Minimus might have something? I haven't had Renaissance chard in a long, long time, and the chances of you finding any old 90's stuff is zero to none, but they're a mayyyyyyyybe. Though if you can get your hands on anything like 2004 or older just loving do it.
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Aug 15, 2019 06:34
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or just go try a bunch of new cali pet-nats, you'll definitely fine a few made in the past couple of years full of hosed-up, reductive poo poo
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Aug 15, 2019 06:42
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idiotsavant posted:"The juice itself" IS terroir. Yes absolutely, that's what I'm saying. FWIW, there's a marked difference, both from a sensory and chemical perspective, between the kind of pleasantly-reductive matchsticky Chards we're talking about here and the unpleasant mercaptany wines that result from wine gone wrong. I wish I remembered the name of the sulfur compound responsible for the distinctive reduction aroma that's so fashionable. Anyone? Regarding the overall CA Chard picture, I understand what you're saying about the risks and dealing with the reality of the market. But if those are the factors, why are Australians able to mass-produce high-quality, consistent, inexpensive, reductive Chardonnay when California can't? Australia does have a better selection of legitimately cool-climate sites with mineral-rich soils, but even from lesser sites, they're making some pretty decent Chard. I've had some Chardonnay from Margaret River, which is a very similar climate to St. Helena, Napa Valley, which is better than anything I've had from California. And additionally, why can they sell said wine when California can't? Having spent some time in Australia, it's really hard to believe the answer is because the Australian market is more sophisticated. . . . I don't mean for this to be an accusation, it's something I just find legitimately perplexing.
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Aug 15, 2019 07:27
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Kasumeat posted:Having spent some time in Australia, it's really hard to believe the answer is because the Australian market is more sophisticated. . . .  We also have excellent Riesling for $20, I think most Australians associate chard with nineties cat piss and it keeps the prices under control.
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Aug 15, 2019 07:54
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I have a bunch of rambling thoughts; I’ll try to keep them halfway coherent. The general American palate kind of sucks. Lots of sweet, lots of fruit, not a lot of acid, no bitter no astringency no hard tannin. See: Americanized Chinese food, Thai food, Italian food etc. Fruity oak-bomb CA chard feels like the standard for what people expect, as gross as it is. I think there was a big reaction to this in the late aughts with some wineries aiming for higher acid, more mineral-driven chards (iirc Lioco was a good example) but maybe winemakers were still afraid of scaring consumers away with reduction? This was all before natural wine crashed the party and opened the CA wine discussion up even more, so I can see being wary of making something that Wine Spectator or whoever might dump on. There’s also the thing where you might have a really delicious bottle of wine from Europe, and as a winemaker you go “oh holy poo poo that was good, i’d love to make that kind of wine” and you go looking around California for sources and go visit European wineries to learn techniques and get advice and try to make the wine. But there’s a thin, weird balance between imitation and inspiration, and I’m not sure how successful the CA wine scene has been in managing it. I made an Albarino in 2016 that I was really excited about, because it was salty and Albariño-y and had good acid to it but was also lush and chewy and unmistakably Californian. There’s CA Albariño out there that echoes Rias Biaxas, and Pinot that makes people go, “oh, how Burgundian!” but finding the line between using a style to express terroir vs just copycatting feels difficult. I’m not sure if that’s because of the relatively short history of CA wine, and then it all gets muddied up with the judgement of Paris and Parkerization and the rise of natural wine and new new CA winemakers trying every technique under the sun? Phone-posting so this may or may not be clear. I’ve been thinking about this a bunch going into harvest, thus the word vomit
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Aug 15, 2019 18:41
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You know what, I think you're right about the American palate being different. Again to go back to comparing it with Australia, one of the big differences between Aussie wine and American wine, the tremendous difference in price and value aside, is that Australian wines are way more likely to be legitimately dry and way more likely to be acidified. I don't wanna get into it about whether those are good things, but clearly there's a difference in the profile they're going for. And regarding imitation vs. inspiration, I agree that that's definitely a factor as well. Call it arrogance, pride, or whatever, but American winemakers are way more likely to say more or less exactly what you're saying about your Albarino: this is California, I'm going to make wine that's unapoligetically Californian—even the IPOB guys. Australians tend to be a little more interested in chasing a style from elsewhere in the world, especially because their wine regions are generally less established and there's less . . . confidence in their own wines.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:29
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I agree with both of you but to me it is overly reductive (ha!) to talk in terms of high acid vs low etc etc. I didn't love high acid wines because I'd tasted a bunch of cheap crap over the years that was highly unpleasant. Then I had some great Roulot and was like wow I taste the ripping acidity like citrus lasers in my mouth and it's actually a really enjoyable feeling. I think there can be high acid styles that are universally enjoyable, and many ways to do high acid that are poo poo. It's too easy to blame the uninformed American consumer for their infantile tastes when in fact I suspect stuff that aspires to sophistication can be pretty mediocre
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Aug 15, 2019 21:06
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The only American wines I have liked are hipster natural pet-nats. I have probably just not tried the right poo poo, but in my experiences American is overpriced. It probably does not help that lipsticky pinot is my least favorite style of wine.
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Aug 16, 2019 06:53
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My biggest matchstick aroma/taste was drinking Boekenhoutskloof Wolftrap white blend out of South Africa. Honestly I enjoyed the effect. Then I had the next year's vintage same exact wine and the effect was way less pronounced. Mysterious.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:24
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Comb Your Beard posted:My biggest matchstick aroma/taste was drinking Boekenhoutskloof Wolftrap white blend out of South Africa. Honestly I enjoyed the effect. Then I had the next year's vintage same exact wine and the effect was way less pronounced. Mysterious. It's not easy to control at all. Winemakers who get it year after year in Burgundy are incredibly talented at what they do. Edit: Although I shouldn't attribute it all to skill. I've heard it attributed to soil types lending themselves to nitrogen poor musts, and that combined with super chilly cellars leading to stressed out yeasts. Crimson fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Aug 17, 2019 |
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Aug 17, 2019 09:34
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