|
School of How posted:Even if those figures are true, do you really think a developer making a quarter a million dollars a year is actually 2.5 times more productive than a developer making 100K? 5 times more productive than a programmer making 50K? I doubt it. Those salaries, if true, are completely illogical. You can’t grasp that there are difficult problems to solve in software engineering, and that there are people who can solve them and then there’s you. Not everyone works as the sole maintainer on line of business CRUD rehashes in dotNET.
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 03:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
rsjr posted:You can’t grasp that there are difficult problems to solve in software engineering, and that there are people who can solve them and then there’s you. Not everyone works as the sole maintainer on line of business CRUD rehashes in dotNET. I remember that time when a company took it to twitter to vent their frustration that they offered 500k per year to a Google engineer and he refused. He was making over $3 mil per year at Google. There aren't many people who pull this kind of money, but you can bet your rear end he worked for them.While nobody knew who exactly was said person, some enterprising journalists narrowed down the possible candidates to a few people and all of them had a huge impact on the Google infrastructure and design. The kind of people that you could say "made Google Google".
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 03:31
|
|
|
Volguus posted:I remember that time when a company took it to twitter to vent their frustration that they offered 500k per year to a Google engineer and he refused. He was making over $3 mil per year at Google. There aren't many people who pull this kind of money, but you can bet your rear end he worked for them.While nobody knew who exactly was said person, some enterprising journalists narrowed down the possible candidates to a few people and all of them had a huge impact on the Google infrastructure and design. The kind of people that you could say "made Google Google". This turned out to be a mistake for the Goog because when you pay someone that much money, after a few years they're set for life and have better things to do that burn the midnight oil down in the Self-Driving Lab (or they have enough money to get together with a couple of their coworkers and launch their own self-driving technology firm, and hope to get acquired by Google - or one of their competitors! - for 10x-100x what they would have made if they'd stayed).
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 03:36
|
|
|
FMguru posted:The Waymo (self-driving car) division at Google had multiple engineers who had stacking multiples for hitting keystones and retention that reached $8-$10 mil/yr. Oh yeah, they're not making that mistake again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 03:38
|
|
|
2nd Rate Poster posted:Here's 29 pages worth of total compensation data from non-senior software engineer employees at google. https://www.levels.fyi/salary/Google/SE/L4/ The average is 258,000 dollars. Yeah, you can hit that total comp surprisingly easily in Austin, SF, NYC, and a few other places if you're willing to go in to the office. Harder to hit it remote and in the middle of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 06:15
|
|
|
Got through to the final stage at AWS  got to go to London and do a day's worth of interviews. Another way that the AWS process is weird; usually when going for jobs in IT in the UK the recruiter asks you salary expectations up front, but AWS tell you what you'll get at the end with no prior knowledge it seems.Edit: To keep things on track. Should I tell my boss at all about this? I'm going to have to take a day out anyway and the last time I handed in my notice he was so blindsided that he asked that I tell him next time round. It feels like a courtesy and I have some degree of sanity/protection with it being socialist Europe. But my mind is saying it would be a terrible idea. Cancelbot fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 08:50
|
|
|
School of How posted:The only logical explanation is oversaturation. From 2010-2012 I received a total of 8 job offers. These were all without whiteboard interviews or take home projects. Since 2013 I've received a total of one job offer. Yet I've interviewed more times than I can count. A lot of those "rejections" come after I refuse to do the whiteboard or take home project. Many of them come without any explanation. Back in 2010-2012 I was rejected too, but not nearly as often, and it was always after I bombed the interview or some other explainable reason. Everyone is beating around the bush, but it's because you're a loving rear end in a top hat.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 08:53
|
|
|
2nd Rate Poster posted:Stop shifting the goal posts mother fucker, you wanted sign of an undersatured market here it is. If everyone has their pick of devs salaries just don't go up towards infinity. A very small percentage of companies paying ludicrously high salaries to a very small percentage of their employees does not prove the market is "undersatured" [sic]. Salaries are not set my the free market, anyways. There can be multiple reasons why the top 1% of salaries are so high. Undersaturation is not the only explanation. Also, during the salary negotiation process, the size of the market is never mentioned. It's not like the company will say "The last programmer we employed we had to interview 20 people to find him, but for you, we only interviewed 10 people, so that means the market is smaller, and you get a higher salary" (or vice versa). On the other hand, if I ask an interviewer how many people they've interviewed for the position, and they tell me 15 people, and then I ask them why they rejected the all those people, and they tell me "none of them were a cultural fit", then that is direct evidence of oversaturation. If I go to the grocery store and see that the price of apples has gone up 10x, it could mean there is a shortage of apples, or it could mean that walmart just decided one day to jack up the price for no reason.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 09:46
|
|
|
School of How posted:If I go to the grocery store and see that the price of apples has gone up 10x, it could mean there is a shortage of apples, or it could mean that walmart just decided one day to jack up the price for no reason. Yes. This is a thing that often happens.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 10:12
|
|
|
Cancelbot posted:It feels like a courtesy and I have some degree of sanity/protection with it being socialist Europe. But my mind is saying it would be a terrible idea. How long have you been in your current job? If it's less than two years you have no sanity or protection (for anything short of your boss literally saying 'you're black and I don't like that so I'm firing your rear end') and lol if you think the UK is socialist. You have essentially no right to go to an employment tribunal for your first two years of employment. Thanks New Labour/Lib Dems/Tories!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 10:15
|
|
|
4 years, and yeah the socialist part was sarcastic. Was more the principle of giving my manager some courtesy, or will it backfire?
Cancelbot fucked around with this message at 11:03 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 10:38
|
|
|
Cancelbot posted:4 years, and yeah the socialist part was sarcastic. Was more the principle of giving my manager some courtesy, or will it backfire? It will backfire, you have no obligation to your boss outside what is in you contract.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 11:11
|
|
|
Cancelbot posted:Edit: To keep things on track. Should I tell my boss at all about this? I'm going to have to take a day out anyway and the last time I handed in my notice he was so blindsided that he asked that I tell him next time round. It feels like a courtesy and I have some degree of sanity/protection with it being socialist Europe. But my mind is saying it would be a terrible idea. Your boss may be lovely about it all, and four years buys you some protection, but ffs just book a doctors appointment RobertKerans fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 11:28
|
|
|
Cancelbot posted:To keep things on track. Should I tell my boss at all about this? You can't ask other people this. More precisely, if you need to ask other people this, the answer is "don't tell your boss". At my last job my boss and I became great friends so I had no problem giving him a bit of a heads up and he kept it private and we're still friends now. If you're unsure at all, then don't do it, you can only trust your own gut on this.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 12:24
|
|
|
Thanks for the replies! Yeah my gut was not to so I went with that. I realise its a dumbass question to ask but I have been burned hard by "surprising" someone by handing my notice in as well. I don't owe my employer a drat thing but I like to be nice to the people I work with; yet they're not compatible feelings.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 12:41
|
|
|
Cancelbot posted:Thanks for the replies! Yeah my gut was not to so I went with that. I realise its a dumbass question to ask but I have been burned hard by "surprising" someone by handing my notice in as well. I don't owe my employer a drat thing but I like to be nice to the people I work with; yet they're not compatible feelings. It's not a dumbass question. It's all well and good to try to be all robotic about your work relationships but in the real world humans make connections and emotions exist and it's totally understandable to feel bad about leaving a boss in the lurch when they're not the reason you're leaving. I don't really get the totally adversarial approach this thread often takes toward colleagues and superiors. putin is a cunt fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 13:25
|
|
|
Hmm... I wonder if these two posts are related  School of How posted:Does anybody here work a job with minimal work hours? My current gig is the best, I basically come in every Monday through Thursday at 2PM, and leave by 5PM. Basically a 12 hour work week. I've been doing this for the past 2.5 years or so. I really like his work schedule (for obvious reasons) but I feel like this work schedule is starting to get to me. I feel like my next job switch is coming up, and am afraid my next job is going to require me to do a full 8 hour work week, which I really don't want to do. Basically the reason why my boss lets me work so few hours is because I always deliver working code every day. Most programmers can't close a single ticket unless you give them one week or more to do it. My boss can come to me with a problem, and I can usually get it done within 10 or 15 minutes, and that includes testing and deployment. Is it possible to find a job that where I can come and go as I please as long as I get all work done? School of How posted:Most industries operate under a seniority system. In my opinion, it's a far superior system than any other
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 13:33
|
|
|
a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I don't really get the totally adversarial approach this thread often takes toward colleagues and superiors. I think it's more a question of 'if you have to ask'. If you and your boss really are that cool then fine, give them the heads up, but then you're not going to need to ask in the thread if it's a good idea or not. If you don't know the answer to that question then you should 100% play it safe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 14:45
|
|
|
feedmegin posted:I think it's more a question of 'if you have to ask'. If you and your boss really are that cool then fine, give them the heads up, but then you're not going to need to ask in the thread if it's a good idea or not. If you don't know the answer to that question then you should 100% play it safe.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 14:47
|
|
|
a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I don't really get the totally adversarial approach this thread often takes toward colleagues and superiors. I think it's these old dying forums trying to hold on to what made Goons Goons from back in the day.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 15:19
|
|
|
a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I don't really get the totally adversarial approach this thread often takes toward colleagues and superiors. Boss makes a dollar I make a dime Keeping Boss at arm's length Is not a crime
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 15:29
|
|
|
I think a lot of it is the gently caress-or-be-hosed nature of late stage American capitalism and the at-will nature of most American employment talking, honestly. It's hard to hold faith in your fellow man when you're constantly suspicious of them, and sadly a lot of hard experience has proven this suspicion to be justified in many cases - not all of course, but many - so what can you do except take the safest course of action?CPColin posted:Boss makes a dollar
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 15:33
|
|
|
School of How posted:that is direct evidence of oversaturation That's much more likely to be evidence of racism and sexism, actually.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
if you've been wondering what lengths people will travel to avoid confronting ugly truths about themselves, then this is the thread for you.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 18:50
|
|
|
rotor posted:if you've been wondering what lengths people will travel to avoid confronting ugly truths about themselves, then this is the thread for you. How!!?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 19:06
|
|
|
a hot gujju bhabhi posted:I don't really get the totally adversarial approach this thread often takes toward colleagues and superiors. w/r/t superiors, I think it's understandable -- them having slightly different incentives/responsibilities than the people working under them means it is sensible to be a bit careful. Doesn't mean it has to be an adverserial relationship, just that you can get hosed over quite easily by people who have power over you, very often even if they aren't trying to do that. Also see: capitalism.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 19:10
|
|
|
Tell your boss when you have the actual job with a start date. The courtesy here is to schedule the start date with enough time to transfer work and knowledge to not inconvenience the team. Use your best judgement on how far out it should be. Who the gently caress tells their boss when they’re just interviewing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
RobertKerans posted:w/r/t superiors, I think it's understandable -- them having slightly different incentives/responsibilities than the people working under them means it is sensible to be a bit careful. Doesn't mean it has to be an adverserial relationship, just that you can get hosed over quite easily by people who have power over you, very often even if they aren't trying to do that. Also see: capitalism. Definitely plays in that being a manager often requires you to withhold information from your direct reports. Sometimes it's stuff that understandably belongs that way, like personnel matters. But sometimes it's stuff that might materially affect you. Back when I had a boss who was a really good friend of mine, there were times when he'd have to say "yeah I can't tell you that Because Reasons." I guess since then, I've played it cordially with my managers and I'm certainly not adversarial about it. But until/unless the managerial relationship is out of the picture we aren't friends, either. I'm also friends with former bosses but that's been after one/both of us is out of the company.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 20:24
|
|
|
Yeah, you can be friendly with management, but you can't ever really be friends.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 20:33
|
|
|
FMguru posted:Yeah, you can be friendly with management, but you can't ever really be friends. After you leave on amicable terms, it could happen! Still kinda awkward running into my old bosses though so maybe not.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 20:38
|
|
|
rsjr posted:Tell your boss when you have the actual job with a start date. The courtesy here is to schedule the start date with enough time to transfer work and knowledge to not inconvenience the team. Use your best judgement on how far out it should be. I did. I trust my boss. I used to not tell anyone until my two week notice, but these days I lean in to trusting people. What are they going to do? Fire me? Programming is an undersaturated market, I find it easy to get jobs.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 20:46
|
|
|
FMguru posted:Yeah, you can be friendly with management, but you can't ever really be friends. At my last gig my teammate got promoted to management and he became my boss. We remained friendly, but when it came time for me to job search, I had to keep him out of the loop. e: lifg posted:I did. I trust my boss. At that same gig one of our entry-level people announced his intentions to his boss that he planned on leaving for a different city once his girlfriend finished university. It apparently worked out well for him, but I and a few others couldn't help but think "Why the gently caress would do you that?!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 20:57
|
|
|
Acer Pilot posted:After you leave on amicable terms, it could happen! Still kinda awkward running into my old bosses though so maybe not. My last job, I had a 1:1 with my boss to give notice, and he's giving me a high five because we pretty much agreed I had nailed down a crazy good gig. At the end he tells me he's about to go to his boss to give his own notice. Next time I was in town (I worked remote and both jobs were in NYC) we had like a three hour dinner and it was pretty much a therapy session for both of us over why we quit. So it definitely can happen!
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 21:11
|
|
|
Munkeymon posted:That's much more likely to be evidence of racism and sexism, actually. You can't be sexist or racist if you don't have a choice. If you receive one resume per week, you physically can't be picky, even if you wanted to. If you receive 100 resume's per hour, it's very easy to be discriminatory.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 22:09
|
|
|
Oh my god, you are precious 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 22:11
|
|
|
School of How posted:You can't be sexist or racist if you don't have a choice. If you receive one resume per week, you physically can't be picky, even if you wanted to. If you receive 100 resume's per hour, it's very easy to be discriminatory. I have a lead position open on my team. I get far less than one candidate a week pass the hr and tech test phone screen and 100% of those have washed out before the on site. Know why? Engineers aren’t fungible and the opportunity cost of a bad hire is much more than doing without. But you won’t internalize that even though it’s exactly what you are running into.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 22:19
|
|
|
Hughlander posted:Engineers aren’t fungible Hughlander posted:I get far less than one candidate a week pass the hr and tech test phone screen and 100% of those have washed out before the on site. If you're rejecting so many people, then you really don't need a new developer. If you truly needed a new developer, you'd actually hire one instead of wasting everyone's time. School of How fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Aug 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 22:51
|
|
|
Hey the thread feng shui is all out of whack I guess How!! is contributing to the usual aim of the thread by being maximally wrong about basically everything and getting dunked on but after some amount of time I would hope we return to our regularly-scheduled Oldie thread
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 23:17
|
|
|
I like How. Nothing shows us what we have in common like someone as wrong as How.
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 23:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 02:56 |
|
|
lifg posted:I like How. Nothing shows us what we have in common like someone as wrong as How. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 14, 2019 23:40
|
|
