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Have you tried a good and healthy MMO
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Aug 13, 2019 18:32
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Actually online gaming in general a great way to kickstart acknowledgement that you have begun the permanent process of physical and mental decline.
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Aug 13, 2019 18:41
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raminasi posted:Does anyone have advice on dealing with the ego challenges that come from having younger coworkers leveled higher than you? It’s really just a stupid ego thing, I have no reason to think anyone at any part of this has made a bad decision, but knowing that doesn’t make it just go away. I'm someone who self-educated regarding most programming activities and rose somewhat fast to the point of becoming a systems architect at a company with maybe 400 devs at 30, as an outside hire that went above folks who were there for 15+ years. It was kind of a shitshow to get in there, but to my defense, I came in as someone with specific skillsets that were complementary to what they had there, not because I could do the job better than any of the existing devs at that place. I've left that place and landed at another place where I'm a more regular senior dev. So I'd say the thing to keep in mind when that kind of stuff happens is that these younger folks (or any outside hire) might have a type of expertise or a background that puts them in a different bucket than most of the people already in the organization. And that's the weird thing, they might only need to have a few of these more limited strengths, even though an older dev would have a lot more experience overall. An older more senior dev might know a lot about a fuckton of things in all kinds of contexts and business domains, but it's possible the skill the employer is looking for in a position only focuses on a narrow band of that skill in which the younger person just happened to have more experience. And it might not even be more actual experience, just more recognized experience, of which the folks making the hiring decisions are actually aware.
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Aug 13, 2019 19:38
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Cuntpunch posted:The weird thing in my experience is that supposing a certain level of seniority - dodging meetings or proposing new times seems to be met with more of a "he's a busy guy doing a lot of work" rather than "he's avoiding meetings or being greedy with his time." a cowoker recently got a middle-management promotion and he half-joked "not replying to email is how i demonstrated my readiness for this role"
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Aug 13, 2019 19:43
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CPColin posted:I marked 12:20 – 1:05 every day as a private event marked "Tentative" to stop my boss scheduling stuff that bumps right up against my lunchtime and it worked fine for a few months until yesterday, when Boss sent an invite for 1:00 – 2:00. Just leave at 11:15 for lunch “to make sure I get back in time”
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Aug 13, 2019 20:13
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raminasi posted:Does anyone have advice on dealing with the ego challenges that come from having younger coworkers leveled higher than you? It’s really just a stupid ego thing, I have no reason to think anyone at any part of this has made a bad decision, but knowing that doesn’t make it just go away. This is just a function of getting older and working in any industry. It's even more humbling when you see exactly why they're promoted above you, like, "oh yeah, they work longer hours and understand this poo poo way better."
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Aug 13, 2019 20:31
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lifg posted:This is just a function of getting older and working in any industry. It's even more humbling when you see exactly why they're promoted above you, like, "oh yeah, they work longer hours and understand this poo poo way better." You can always tell yourself what anyone else will “Get gud grandpa”
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Aug 13, 2019 20:34
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raminasi posted:Does anyone have advice on dealing with the ego challenges that come from having younger coworkers leveled higher than you? It’s really just a stupid ego thing, I have no reason to think anyone at any part of this has made a bad decision, but knowing that doesn’t make it just go away. Honestly evaluate them as a peer. Are they more talented? Smarter? Work harder? Have they produced more meaningful contributions? If any of the above is true, isn’t it only logical that they are rewarded with a higher position? Be glad you work for a company that promotes on merit and not something like seniority. What if your promotion went to a slightly older / more senior person who you thought was less deserving?
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Aug 13, 2019 21:14
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rsjr posted:Be glad you work for a company that promotes on merit and not something like seniority. Most industries operate under a seniority system. In my opinion, it's a far superior system than any other and here is why: Amongst competent people, it's very hard to "rank" each person. For instance, it's very hard to say whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is a better basketball player. They both play pretty drat well, and can do everything a basketball player needs to be able to do. On the other hand, if you go to an elementary school basketball game, it's much easier to tell who the best players are, who the worst are, and the ones in the middle. I can't speak for other industries, but within the aviation industry, there is no logical way to say pilot A is "better" than pilot B. If they both are able to get the job done and not crash, then they both are equal, therefore the only way to fairly give out promotions is to give it to the one with most seniority. If they were to come up with some metric to differentiate between "good" and "great" pilots, then pilots would try to maximize that metric to further their career, and that would jeopardize safety. If the programming industry embraced seniority, then you'd see far fewer programmers trying to "out-program" their co-workers in an attempt to make themselves seem better that everyone else, to get a promotion. It would result in better software quality and better working conditions.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:23
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So you just want a promotion by virtue of being at the company the longest? Even at Union jobs you have to take an exam if you want to go to the next level of your role. Being at a company for a long time alone does not warrant a promotion. More vacation days though? Sure.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:33
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School of How posted:Most industries operate under a seniority system. In my opinion, it's a far superior system than any other and here is why: Amongst competent people, it's very hard to "rank" each person. For instance, it's very hard to say whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is a better basketball player. They both play pretty drat well, and can do everything a basketball player needs to be able to do. On the other hand, if you go to an elementary school basketball game, it's much easier to tell who the best players are, who the worst are, and the ones in the middle. You’re just pissed you’re no longer a pilot.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:34
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Programming is not aviation. If you hire a pilot to take you to the bottom of a lake you are an idiot. On the programming side, smart people routinely hire programmers to take them to the bottom of a lake. A facet of the seniority in programming is in identifying when you are flying to the bottom of a lake and then convincing people to consider building a submarine. That is an entirely different skillset from flying from point a to point b safely and efficiently multiple times a day. 2nd Rate Poster fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 13, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 22:36
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School of How posted:Most industries operate under a seniority system. In my opinion, it's a far superior system than any other and here is why: Amongst competent people, it's very hard to "rank" each person. For instance, it's very hard to say whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is a better basketball player. They both play pretty drat well, and can do everything a basketball player needs to be able to do. On the other hand, if you go to an elementary school basketball game, it's much easier to tell who the best players are, who the worst are, and the ones in the middle. Did you try to sneak a LeBron / Jordan derail into the lovely programmers thread? Settle down. Let’s get you hired first before we start talking promotions kind goon.
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Aug 13, 2019 22:47
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Acer Pilot posted:So you just want a promotion by virtue of being at the company the longest? Even at Union jobs you have to take an exam if you want to go to the next level of your role. But that exam only tests base qualifications. If everyone is capable of being at the next level, then everyone will pass the test. The promotion will go to the person with the most seniority. In the programming industry, they'd make the test 1000 times harder, such that only one person will ever pass the test, and then give the promotion to that person. As oversaturation worsens, these tests get harder and harder. I did a google onsite a few months ago. It was 6 hours straight of whiteboarding. At some point, that won't be enough, and they'll have to up it to 12 hours of whiteboarding. Then that won't be enough, and they'll have to increase it again to 18 hours of whiteboarding. At some point it'll become the only way to get a programing job is to spend all your time practicing whiteboarding, and none of your time getting good at actual programming. That sucks.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:04
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Did you tell any of the google interviewers with their quarter of a million to three quarters of a million yearly total comp. that the market was oversaturated?
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Aug 13, 2019 23:11
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Go ahead and name another industry where you can start at six figures without accreditation and 0 years of experience then think about why there are ridiculous interviewing requirements for software.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:12
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What's wrong with making a test harder? If you are hoping to get the best candidates then you are within your rights to make the interview harder. Jobs don't exist to employ you, they exist to make a company money. There are so many other jobs in the industry you can get without doing a full day onsite. I got several offers for surprisingly very little effort or even whiteboarding this year and that was just passively. If you want a job in software, are qualified, and people can stand being in a room with you, there are a lot of opportunities out there. Not FAANGs if you don't want to whiteboard though.
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Aug 13, 2019 23:13
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This thread has really gone to poo poo since School of How started posting. Y'all aren't going to convince them of anything. I miss the old thread. 
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Aug 13, 2019 23:16
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Acer Pilot posted:What's wrong with making a test harder? If you are hoping to get the best candidates then you are within your rights to make the interview harder. Jobs don't exist to employ you, they exist to make a company money. Because it's not realistic. Whiteboarding is very different from actual programming. Seniority is the way almost every single industry works, there is no reason why software can't be that way either. quote:There are so many other jobs in the industry you can get without doing a full day onsite. I got several offers for surprisingly very little effort or even whiteboarding this year and that was just passively. quote:If you want a job in software, are qualified, and people can stand being in a room with you, there are a lot of opportunities out there. Not FAANGs if you don't want to whiteboard though. I disagree. 10 years ago I would have agreed with you, but now-a-days it's much different. Blinkz0rz posted:Go ahead and name another industry where you can start at six figures without accreditation and 0 years of experience then think about why there are ridiculous interviewing requirements for software. You can't start in software with 6 figures. That's extremely rare. Maybe if you're valedictorian at MIT or something, but the vast majority of entry level developers will make like 50K in their first job. 2nd Rate Poster posted:Did you tell any of the google interviewers with their quarter of a million to three quarters of a million yearly total comp. that the market was oversaturated? Google wants you to think that it's possible to make that much, but I doubt many people actually make that. Some executives no doubt make a quarter a million per year, but I doubt any rank and file developers make that kind of money. Also, oversaturation does not have an immediate effect on salaries. The best example I can think of is the acting industry, which everyone agrees is oversaturated. There are orders of magnitude more aspiring actors than there are working actors, yet actor salaries are still pretty good. Oversaturation just means it's harder to land a job because there is more competition. The only reason why tech companies pay ridiculous salaries is because they think they have to since all other tech companies pay ridiculous salaries. One of these days there will be a recession and it'll put an end to the ridiculous salaries. The very few developers making over 150K will be forced to either take a pay cut, or find a job somewhere else. Why pay someone 150K, when the marker is flooded with people just as good willing to work for much less. At this point, there's a lot of people that'll gladly take a job making 50K, because 50K is much more than the 0 they're making now. School of How fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 13, 2019 23:58
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School of How posted:My experience tells me otherwise. Literally 100% of companies I interview with have some kind of take home project or whiteboard session. I would absolutely LOVE to interview with a company that doesn't do takehomes or whiteboards, but I don't think they exist anymore. I literally just told you they existed and have received offers from some of them. Also, what region are you based in? It's pretty common on the west coast to start off with six figures. And I wasn't a valedictorian genius either. E: maybe you should look into one of those industries where seniority gets you promotions.
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Aug 14, 2019 00:23
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School of How posted:For instance, it's very hard to say whether LeBron James or Michael Jordan is a better basketball player. They both play pretty drat well, and can do everything a basketball player needs to be able to do. Actually, you'll find that even though Michael Jordan has more seniority, LeBron James still holds a better position currently because they are rated on their actual skill rather than any seniority. The system works! 
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Aug 14, 2019 00:40
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He’s got to be trolling, right? FAANG salaries are pretty well documented
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Aug 14, 2019 00:46
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School of How posted:The best example I can think of is the acting industry, which everyone agrees is oversaturated. There are orders of magnitude more aspiring actors than there are working actors, yet actor salaries are still pretty good. Hahaha, what the gently caress. No they aren't, not outside of of a trivially small group
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Aug 14, 2019 00:46
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This thread has really gone to poo poo since School of How started posting. Y'all aren't going to convince them of anything. I miss the old thread. Are you suggesting that the market for School of How's posts has become oversaturated?
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Aug 14, 2019 00:50
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CPColin posted:Are you suggesting that the market for School of How's posts has become oversaturated? 
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Aug 14, 2019 01:04
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CPColin posted:Are you suggesting that the market for School of How's posts has become oversaturated?
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Aug 14, 2019 01:18
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I suggest we implement some sort of test before posting so we can improve the quality of submissions and we don't waste time with sub par posters.
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Aug 14, 2019 01:20
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I have been posting since 2007, can I just skip the test and start posting or can you guarantee me that I can post after completing said test? Better yet, can we can just forego all that and promote me to senior poster for my years of many service?
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Aug 14, 2019 01:25
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How about we just institute fully automated luxury gay space communism so we don’t have to write software at all?
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Aug 14, 2019 01:38
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RobertKerans posted:Hahaha, what the gently caress. No they aren't, not outside of of a trivially small group Have you ever seen hollywood auditions? LIke 500 people show up to the audition, but only one person gets the role. If tv/movie production companies wanted to pay their actors 10 cents per hour they could probably get away with it, as there are people willing to endure those wages in chances of hitting it big in that industry. The only reason why they don't is because of the unions and minimum wage laws. The difference is that in an acting audition, you can see the amount of people you're up against. When you're applying online to a programming job, you can't see the other people that are going through the process alongside you, so you have no idea how much competition exists.
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Aug 14, 2019 01:49
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Pretty sure they were responding specifically to the bolded part of your post, not the "oversaturated" part.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:01
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I think what they're trying to say is that you should be happy with 10 cents an hour. There are just so many progamers out there and, since everyone is equally skilled, we have no options!! You know what else needs to come back? Lifetime commitment to a single company.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:08
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School of How posted:Google wants you to think that it's possible to make that much, but I doubt many people actually make that. Some executives no doubt make a quarter a million per year, but I doubt any rank and file developers make that kind of money. Here's 29 pages worth of total compensation data from non-senior software engineer employees at google. https://www.levels.fyi/salary/Google/SE/L4/ The average is 258,000 dollars. Just go away. 2nd Rate Poster fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 02:10
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rsjr posted:Let’s get you hired first be super glad to act as a referral for How for his application to any of my companies competitors
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Aug 14, 2019 02:36
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2nd Rate Poster posted:Here's 29 pages worth of total compensation data from non-senior software engineer employees at google. https://www.levels.fyi/salary/Google/SE/L4/ The average is 258,000 dollars. How do you know that information is truthful? How do you know that google isn't just paying the owners of levels.fyi to make it look like engineers actually make that much? WHy do you just trust a number posted on an internet website? Are all numbers posted on websites trustworthy? Even if those figures are true, do you really think a developer making a quarter a million dollars a year is actually 2.5 times more productive than a developer making 100K? 5 times more productive than a programmer making 50K? I doubt it. Those salaries, if true, are completely illogical.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:42
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School of How posted:
I do developer interviews for a Fortune 100 company and I intentionally avoid whiteboards and takehomes. I ask developers to talk through code that they've previously worked on (personal projects, or get permission from a previous employer to share code. Most previous employers I've found do not care if you share a stupid CRUD service sample.) So they exist. You're obviously trolling at this point but i'm just responding so junior lurkers don't take anything you are saying as remotely true.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:44
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I work at a Google competitor. The salary information is accurate. It closely matches our ranges. Does it shock you to the core to know this oversaturated market will value some developers over you by such a large amount.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:53
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School of How posted:How do you know that information is truthful? How do you know that google isn't just paying the owners of levels.fyi to make it look like engineers actually make that much? WHy do you just trust a number posted on an internet website? Are all numbers posted on websites trustworthy? Because a lot of us know Google engineers personally and discuss comp. Or, there are posters in this thread who are Google engineers and know their own bottom line. It's also not necessarily about developer productivity, in terms of code churned out. It's about the value the software creates for the company, which can be many multiples the cost of compensating the engineer. In a highly competitive labor market, you must share more of that value with the employee if you want good ones to work for you. I'm sorry that this evidence shatters your worldview that the market is oversaturated, but the reality is you can go to a FAANG company and make several hundred thousand dollars a year just converting tickets to code. It's also not a rarity at all to make >$150K at a not-FAANG company. kitten smoothie fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Aug 14, 2019 |
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Aug 14, 2019 02:55
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School of How posted:How do you know that information is truthful? How do you know that google isn't just paying the owners of levels.fyi to make it look like engineers actually make that much? WHy do you just trust a number posted on an internet website? Are all numbers posted on websites trustworthy? When I was at Oracle, they gladly converted top performers from India to US based and would give them 4-6x bumps in comp as part of the relocation.
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Aug 14, 2019 02:57
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School of How posted:How do you know that information is truthful? How do you know that google isn't just paying the owners of levels.fyi to make it look like engineers actually make that much? WHy do you just trust a number posted on an internet website? Are all numbers posted on websites trustworthy?
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Aug 14, 2019 02:58
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