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Count Roland posted:A pen pal is visiting me next week. She grew up in Virginia Beach. I told this to a friend, and asked if she's a [iSouthern Belle[/i]. There are remnants of traditional african-american southern culture all over the Mason-Dixon "south," but they're not really what people mean when they talk about "southern belle" stuff and are instead good. You have to scour Northern Virginia to find hints of the real south anywhere within 25 miles of DC. It's overwhelmingly wealthy cosmopolitan coastal elite until it evens out down toward Fredricksburg or west past Haymarket. Farther south gets more legitimately southern. Virinia Beach is a large and sprawling modern city and extensive suburbs that isn't especially southern in a traditional sense, but you don't have to go far or look hard to find southern stuff. Some Va Beach natives have some southern-ness, but most don't really. Lots of military families originally from all over. If you're looking for southern belles, you can find plenty of people who celebrate that crap around Virginia in Richmond and the rural towns like Winchester, Warrenton and throughout the Shenandoah Valley. A few are actual great-great-great-great-granddaughters of the OG southern belles with the old money and everything.
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Aug 15, 2019 12:34
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steinrokkan posted:Seems more likely the Mediterranean would be dominated by Italians, who are excluded from the map. There was no Italy until the 1870's so that probably was a big issue for Italy dominating shipping prior to that.
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Aug 15, 2019 14:43
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Grape posted:There was no Italy until the 1870's so that probably was a big issue for Italy dominating shipping prior to that. So are you saying they weren’t called Italians until unification?
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Aug 15, 2019 14:45
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Senior Dog posted:So are you saying they weren’t called Italians until unification? I'm saying there was no singular power called Italy that could be theorized as doing heavy sailing around the Mediterranean in that period on the same level as the other five posted. Venice would be interesting to see though.
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Aug 15, 2019 14:50
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Grape posted:There was no Italy until the 1870's so that probably was a big issue for Italy dominating shipping prior to that.
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Aug 15, 2019 14:52
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Toplowtech posted:Genoa and Venice still dominated. The other point I'm saying is that I think Saladman is right, that Barbary pirate and Ottoman presence made the Mediterranean much tricker and fraught shipping territory.
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Aug 15, 2019 15:32
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Grape posted:There was no Italy until the 1870's so that probably was a big issue for Italy dominating shipping prior to that. Ah yes, this thread was recently lacking in pedantry. Anyway, yes, the Barbary pirates were a huge problem, but the scale of the problem kinda showcases that there was significant merchant shipping in the region after all, and their power didn't extend to the Eastern M nearly as much as it did in France / Iberia. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Aug 15, 2019 |
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Aug 15, 2019 15:37
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Senior Dog posted:So are you saying they weren’t called Italians until unification? Venice didn't even speak Italian
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Aug 15, 2019 15:50
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Sampatrick posted:Venice didn't even speak Italian racist
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Aug 15, 2019 15:52
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Peanut President posted:racist Venetian literally isn't the same language as Italian even in the year 2019. Sicilian is similarly actually a distinct language.
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Aug 15, 2019 15:59
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Toplowtech posted:From north to south: Dunkerque, Brest and Bordeaux. Bordeaux is a commercial hub, Dunkerque is mostly north sea commerce and really small next to Anvers and Rotterdam. Brest is mostly transatlantic travel and the French Fleet. Also Cherbourg and Saint-Nazaire.
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Aug 15, 2019 16:02
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That map is strange and misleading. First of all, the periodization is odd (1740-1855). The bigger problem is that it sort of purports to show all ship logs but it actually just exploits data from a few databases and is very much incomplete and not at all an accurate representation of all sea traffic.
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Aug 15, 2019 16:17
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Sampatrick posted:Venetian literally isn't the same language as Italian even in the year 2019. Sicilian is similarly actually a distinct language. tell me more about how the Others are Different
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Aug 15, 2019 16:31
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Sampatrick posted:Venetian literally isn't the same language as Italian even in the year 2019. Sicilian is similarly actually a distinct language. They don’t have an army anymore Also are you sayin you have to speak Italian to be Italian?
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Aug 15, 2019 16:37
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We should just go back to calling it all Latin. The academic standard will of course be Parisian Latin
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Aug 15, 2019 16:47
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Senior Dog posted:They don’t have an army anymore No I'm saying that the idea that everyone on the Italian peninsula is Italian is an idea driven by nationalism and the cultural connections between the major regions of the peninsula are more imagined than they are real. Here, would you say that Basque people and Catalan people are Spanish? Are Bretons French?
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Aug 15, 2019 16:53
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Peanut President posted:tell me more about how the Others are Different Italian unification meant that the powers that be picked one of the regional dialects/languages to become "Italian", and they went with the area with the most cultural prestige, Tuscany. So basically Italian as we know it is based on Central Italian stuff, with emphasis on Tuscany. This means that stuff in the north areas and south areas are appreciably different from the central derived standard Italian, in some cases enough to be considered different languages depending who you ask and which ones we're looking at. It's similar to how "Spanish" came from the Castillian language/dialect. In spite of stuff like Catalan, Galician and so on.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:03
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Sampatrick posted:No I'm saying that the idea that everyone on the Italian peninsula is Italian is an idea driven by nationalism and the cultural connections between the major regions of the peninsula are more imagined than they are real. I never said everyone on the Italian peninsula is Italian. I merely asked if they had to live in a country called Italy to be called Italian. I hope you can see the difference instead of putting more words in my mouth. I also think it’s possible to hold more than one identity and consider yourself both Catalan and Spanish. But I also don’t care whether someone does or doesn’t that’s their deal.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:06
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Sampatrick posted:No I'm saying that the idea that everyone on the Italian peninsula is Italian is an idea driven by nationalism and the cultural connections between the major regions of the peninsula are more imagined than they are real. They were commonly known as Italians throughout this whole period.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:07
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steinrokkan posted:They were commonly known as Italians throughout this whole period. Were they? Or was that more a geographic/regional thing. Like "Iberian" or "Balkan". I have to seriously 100% doubt the idea that prior to the mid-1800's, let alone prior to modern nationalism, anyone meant an ethnic identity when they said Italian.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:20
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I'm sure the borders of what we understand as Italy have changed plenty, but afaict Venice has long been considered part of that, and Italy as a concept is thousands of years old, so this argument seems very entry level pedantic. Like yeah we know that Sicilian is a language come on
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Aug 15, 2019 17:21
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Toplowtech posted:From north to south: Dunkerque, Brest and Bordeaux. Bordeaux is a commercial hub, Dunkerque is mostly north sea commerce and really small next to Anvers and Rotterdam. Brest is mostly transatlantic travel and the French Fleet. Dunkerque was also pirates at the time, no? Also the Barbary pirates were such a huge problem they're actually the reason Portugal is excluded from the map. And that's my obscure EU3 reference for the day. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 17:24 on Aug 15, 2019 |
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Aug 15, 2019 17:21
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Grape posted:Were they? Or was that more a geographic/regional thing. Like "Iberian" or "Balkan". No one spoke of an ethnic identity
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Aug 15, 2019 17:22
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I think a better comparative question might be "Are the Quebecois Canadian?"
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Aug 15, 2019 17:24
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Grape posted:Italian unification meant that the powers that be picked one of the regional dialects/languages to become "Italian", and they went with the area with the most cultural prestige, Tuscany. So basically Italian as we know it is based on Central Italian stuff, with emphasis on Tuscany. That happened in more or less every country with a standardized language. Standard German is based on a Saxonian/Thuringian German if I remember correctly, Standard Slovák is based on a mid-Slovakian dialect.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:25
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Standard English is based on the prestige dialect, Cleveland.
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Aug 15, 2019 17:40
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steinrokkan posted:Seems more likely the Mediterranean would be dominated by Italians, who are excluded from the map. In earlier periods yes, but not by 1740. Pretty sure by then England and France were already dominating.
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Aug 15, 2019 18:03
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Orange Devil posted:Also the Barbary pirates were such a huge problem they're actually the reason Portugal is excluded from the map.
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Aug 15, 2019 18:11
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Aug 15, 2019 18:51
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Grape posted:Were they? Or was that more a geographic/regional thing. Like "Iberian" or "Balkan". Machiavelli refers to one in the sixteenth century - look at the closing exhortation of The Prince, where he expresses a desire that the Italians work to end foreign influence over the peninsula. Analogically, he appears to understand "Italian" as a genus and Lombard, Tuscan, Neapolitan and the rest as species thereof, but there was definitely a sense that there was a broad Italian identity (that could be drawn upon as opposed to French, Germans, Spanish, etc.) in the Early Modern period.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:13
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Machiavelli refers to one in the sixteenth century - look at the closing exhortation of The Prince, where he expresses a desire that the Italians work to end foreign influence over the peninsula. Analogically, he appears to understand "Italian" as a genus and Lombard, Tuscan, Neapolitan and the rest as species thereof, but there was definitely a sense that there was a broad Italian identity (that could be drawn upon as opposed to French, Germans, Spanish, etc.) in the Early Modern period. Yeah, there was absolutely an Italian identity as well as Spanish identity, etc. in early modernity. It wasn’t necessarily a uniform identity and may not have been the most important identity to most but people were certainly distinguished on that basis. It’s a well attested thing. Even though I don’t write about identity, the notarial documents I use from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, for example, explicitly distinguish between Spaniards (in a way that includes both the Crown of Castile and Aragon) and Italians.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:33
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fishmech posted:Standard English is based on the prestige dialect, Cleveland. want to live in the alternate timeline where Chicago is the Standard English
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Aug 15, 2019 19:41
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:We should just go back to calling it all Latin. Ah, the China Model.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:47
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King Hong Kong posted:Yeah, there was absolutely an Italian identity as well as Spanish identity, etc. in early modernity. It wasn’t necessarily a uniform identity and may not have been the most important identity to most but people were certainly distinguished on that basis. It’s a well attested thing. Even though I don’t write about identity, the notarial documents I use from the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, for example, explicitly distinguish between Spaniards (in a way that includes both the Crown of Castile and Aragon) and Italians.
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Aug 15, 2019 19:53
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Peanut President posted:want to live in the alternate timeline where Chicago is the Standard English Are you implying that The Chicago Manual of Style is does not already have a status akin to holy writ?
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Aug 15, 2019 19:59
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Numerical Anxiety posted:Are you implying that The Chicago Manual of Style is does not already have a status akin to holy writ? oh my got, I feckin did it, I jumped to da alternate yunivershe!!
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Aug 15, 2019 20:02
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Peanut President posted:oh my got, I feckin did it, I jumped to da alternate yunivershe!! conducting an experiment like in Herodotus where a child is raised by a mute and we determine if the child then grows up to say "pop" or "soda" or "coke"
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Aug 15, 2019 20:13
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Just like I predicted six years ago: https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-eyes-a-new-real-estate-purchase-greenland-11565904223 Canada, being boxed in by America, will be the next on the list, just to make Americans less confused about their borders.
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Aug 16, 2019 08:05
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Canada and Denmark will have to end their brutal conflict in order to band together against the common enemy.
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Aug 16, 2019 08:10
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Just like I predicted six years ago: I mean, if we're in the politically loaded maps thread, then I totally agree with Trump. The US should also take the western third of Iceland that is on the North American plate too. Europeans should finally stop their colonization of other continental plates.
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Aug 16, 2019 08:17
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