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japtor
Oct 28, 2005

Roadie posted:

I want a USB-C Alt Mode port, specifically, which they don't have.
The second TB3 port (on that and others) should provide that afaik.

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Binary Badger
Oct 11, 2005

Trolling Link for a decade


Apple finally updates its USB-C Digital AV Multiport Adapter to HDMI 2.0, and it now supports 4K @ 60Hz on supported monitors, adds HDR10 and Dolby Vision compatibility.

https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MUF82AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter

It'll be in stock in Fruit Stands starting, ehm, midweek next week.

Here's an Apple Tech Support page detailing the differences between the old and the new Multiport adapter.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207806

Binary Badger fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Aug 9, 2019

Roadie
Jun 30, 2013

japtor posted:

The second TB3 port (on that and others) should provide that afaik.

I already have a separate Thunderbolt 3 device, and since the designers of these specs are assholes who never bothered to allow for a Thunderbolt 3 hub, the only way for me to route everything through the minimum number of cables is to find a hub that ALSO has a USB-C Alt Mode port.

japtor
Oct 28, 2005

Roadie posted:

I already have a separate Thunderbolt 3 device, and since the designers of these specs are assholes who never bothered to allow for a Thunderbolt 3 hub, the only way for me to route everything through the minimum number of cables is to find a hub that ALSO has a USB-C Alt Mode port.
Technically I think the spec allows whatever topology, but it’s like FireWire where no one has actually put that into practice. In any case to clarify your port usage, it sounds like you want one TB3 port for the computer, one for a TB3 device, and USB-C port w/DP for a display? For that specifically in a dock, yeah you’re probably boned. If your TB3 device has a daisy chain TB3 port you can use that for the display, or use something like a USB-C to DP cable for the display and use the DP port on the dock.

(Apologies if I’m completely misinterpreting your posts and way off the mark here)

MarcusSA
Sep 23, 2007

Question about battery replacement.

I have a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) that currently has 320 cycles on the battery and last I heard Apple was probably going to stop servicing this model by the end of the year. Would it be worth it to just replace the battery before they stop supporting it? I use this machine pretty much every day around the house and I don't push it too hard so I can't see replacing it anytime soon.

Splinter
Jul 4, 2003
Cowabunga!

MarcusSA posted:

Question about battery replacement.

I have a MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Late 2013) that currently has 320 cycles on the battery and last I heard Apple was probably going to stop servicing this model by the end of the year. Would it be worth it to just replace the battery before they stop supporting it? I use this machine pretty much every day around the house and I don't push it too hard so I can't see replacing it anytime soon.

If you want it to last as long as possible, I'd do it once they announce plans to vintage it. You get a new keyboard/trackpad too (whole top case is replaced), so if you're having any issues whatsoever with either of those parts, that's an added bonus. Also, despite the low-ish cycle count, you can still run into battery issues (especially if the cycle count is low because it is used heavily while attached to a charger). I just had mine replaced (same year/model as yours) because despite having sub 300 cycles, the battery had started to swell which was affecting trackpad use and eventually caused boot issues (couldn't always get through the login screen due to the keyboard not registering or something like that). The Late 2013 15s are still very capable machines for many tasks, and $200 to get a few extra years out of it is much less than you'd spend replacing it.

MarcusSA
Sep 23, 2007

Splinter posted:

If you want it to last as long as possible, I'd do it once they announce plans to vintage it. You get a new keyboard/trackpad too (whole top case is replaced), so if you're having any issues whatsoever with either of those parts, that's an added bonus. Also, despite the low-ish cycle count, you can still run into battery issues (especially if the cycle count is low because it is used heavily while attached to a charger). I just had mine replaced (same year/model as yours) because despite having sub 300 cycles, the battery had started to swell which was affecting trackpad use and eventually caused boot issues (couldn't always get through the login screen due to the keyboard not registering or something like that). The Late 2013 15s are still very capable machines for many tasks, and $200 to get a few extra years out of it is much less than you'd spend replacing it.

OK thanks thats kinda what I was thinking. The battery seems ok but I think you might be right about the cycle count being low due to it being plugged in all the time.

I'll keep an eye out for when they vintage it.

Thanks!

Housh
Jul 9, 2001




This looks good but waiting for reviews: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-usb-c-travel-dock

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

This looks like overpriced garbage that won't work well and will have poo poo support because OWC is selling it.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

For anyone who remembers my saga almost a year ago as my MBP ended up with a few different top cases, four display assemblies, and a couple logic boards...

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

Replacement MBP arrived today. TrueTone is nice so far. Keyboard is quieter and feels a little better to type on. Otherwise it's another MBP. :)

I've more or less finished getting what I need transferred and will send the old one back tomorrow.
The cycle begins again. Today I sent my 2018 MacBook Pro out for its first display assembly replacement.

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

All laptops suck

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

For anyone who remembers my saga almost a year ago as my MBP ended up with a few different top cases, four display assemblies, and a couple logic boards...

The cycle begins again. Today I sent my 2018 MacBook Pro out for its first display assembly replacement.

Is your jizz getting into the computer when you jerk off?

kefkafloyd
Jun 8, 2006

What really knocked me out
Was her cheap sunglasses
Better send your MBP in to get its battery replaced if it's one of the 15 inch 2015 models on the recall list, cause they're now on a no-fly list.

https://www.macrumors.com/2019/08/13/macbook-pro-2015-flight-ban-united-states/

MarcusSA
Sep 23, 2007

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

For anyone who remembers my saga almost a year ago as my MBP ended up with a few different top cases, four display assemblies, and a couple logic boards...

The cycle begins again. Today I sent my 2018 MacBook Pro out for its first display assembly replacement.

Yo what the hell are you doing over there?

That’s some terrible luck.

American McGay
Feb 28, 2010

by sebmojo
The timb of MacBooks.

Mad Wack
Mar 27, 2008

"The faster you use your cooldowns, the faster you can use them again"

check out the new twelve south one instead it's better

Cough Drop The Beat
Jan 22, 2012

by Lowtax
I've had my still quite capable late 2013 retina MBP going strong for 6 years now with absolutely zero issues besides a frayed Magsafe charger and you've had the same Macbook repaired how many times??? Man, that is comically horrendous bad luck.

I'm thinking I might go for an Air eventually though... if they ever update the keyboard to not be a piece of flaming garbage like the rumors say.

Cough Drop The Beat fucked around with this message at 04:33 on Aug 14, 2019

Data Graham
Dec 28, 2009

📈📊🍪😋



A couple days ago a small wasp that had somehow found its way into my room landed directly on my laptop (2014 MBP 13") and immediately crawled inside the vents.

I never saw him come out.

A month from now or whatever''s gonna be fun

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Cough Drop The Beat posted:

I've had my still quite capable late 2013 retina MBP going strong for 6 years now with absolutely zero issues besides a frayed Magsafe charger and you've had the same Macbook repaired how many times??? Man, that is comically horrendous bad luck.
I feel like it's gotten worse in the last 3-5 years, but that's probably just my experiences. My 2006-2013 Macs (laptops, iMacs, Minis) rarely had to go in for service -- maybe at most once in their lifetimes.

With the newer models I'm convinced that the moment I have to send a machine out once that it's all downhill from there and I'll end up replacing the machine. Apple's design team spits out products that are increasingly difficult to service, and I think the results even from Apple's official repair channels suffered for that.

The only upside is that Apple at least continues to stand by their product and usually replace the machine for me, but the entire process is still fairly disruptive to my work.

Star War Sex Parrot fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Aug 14, 2019

Krispy Wafer
Jul 26, 2002

I shouted out "Free the exposed 67"
But they stood on my hair and told me I was fat

Grimey Drawer

Star War Sex Parrot posted:

I feel like it's gotten worse in the last 3-5 years, but that's probably just my experiences. My 2006-2013 Macs (laptops, iMacs, Minis) rarely had to go in for service -- maybe at most once in their lifetimes.

With the newer models I'm convinced that the moment I have to send a machine out once that it's all downhill from there and I'll end up replacing the machine. Apple's design team spits out products that are increasingly difficult to service, and I think the results even from Apple's official repair channels suffered for that.

The only upside is that Apple at least continues to stand by their product and usually replace the machine for me, but the entire process is still fairly disruptive to my work.

That makes sense. Their stuff is more reliable, but if you get a problem one it’s more difficult to fix it. And unlike iPhones, Apple isn’t just going to pull a refurb out of the back. They’re going to try and fix that janky laptop.

Apple would probably encourage you to buy extra iCloud space so your workflow isn’t disrupted.

Lawen
Aug 7, 2000

My Late 2009 iMac 27" has been a beast and given me nearly 10 years of service but has recently started acting up a bit. The screen will just stop working randomly. Everything else is fine and I can still share screen via Finder or connect to it via VNC, it's just that the display turns off completely, backlight and all. I assume it's a thermal issue, it probably got hot enough that an old (poorly annealed) solder point lost contact and now as it heats and cools the connection sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I don't have much to lose at this point so I'm going to try this process of removing the video card and baking it in the oven to see if it helps but if anyone has experience with this problem or the "bake" process, I'm all ears.

Regardless of whether I can resurrect it, it's time for a new one. So, a couple questions about the 2019 iMac 27"...
1. RAM is user-serviceable again, right? So I should buy it with the default 8GB and then buy two of these to slap in and I'll save $450 with no downside?
2. The $400 bump to the i9 is worth it, right? I'll be using it for audio production (LogicX, Ableton, Native Instruments stuff, etc.) and devops-y stuff (running a bunch of dockers, a small CI/CD pipeline, a kubernetes lab, etc.) in addition to using it as a web browsing/video watching normal workstation. I'm thinking that the bump to the i9 should help with the first two things and add a little extra longevity to the system (I'd love to get another 9-10 years of use out of this one).
3. The VEGA GPU upgrade...worth it at $450? I have a separate gaming PC and I don't really do anything with motion graphics or animation. I do a bit of Photoshop/Lightroom but not frequently. I assume that the upgrade from the 580X to the VEGA isn't worth it in my situation but maybe I'm wrong?

Lawen fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Aug 15, 2019

Last Chance
Dec 31, 2004

Lawen posted:

My Late 2009 iMac 27" has been a beast and given me nearly 10 years of service but has recently started acting up a bit. The screen will just stop working randomly. Everything else is fine and I can still share screen via Finder or connect to it via VNC, it's just that the display turns off completely, backlight and all. I assume it's a thermal issue, it probably got hot enough that an old (poorly annealed) solder point lost contact and now as it heats and cools the connection sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I don't have much to lose at this point so I'm going to try this process of removing the video card and baking it in the oven to see if it helps but if anyone has experience with this problem or the "bake" process, I'm all ears.

Regardless of whether I can resurrect it, it's time for a new one. So, a couple questions about the 2019 iMac 27"...
1. RAM is user-serviceable again, right? So I should buy it with the default 8GB and then buy two of these to slap in and I'll save $450 with no downside, right?
2. The $400 bump to the i9 is worth it, right? I'll be using it for audio production (LogicX, Ableton, Native Instruments stuff, etc.) and devops-y stuff (running a bunch of dockers, a small CI/CD pipeline, a kubernetes lab, etc.) in addition to using it as a web browsing/video watching/etc normal workstation. I'm thinking that the bump to the i9 should help with the first two things and add a little extra longevity to the system (I'd love to get another 9-10 years of use out of this one).
3. The VEGA GPU upgrade...worth it at $450? I have a separate gaming PC and I don't really do anything with motion graphics or animation. I do a bit of Photoshop/Lightroom stuff but not frequently. I assume that the upgrade from the 580X to the VEGA isn't worth it in my situation but maybe I'm wrong?
imac 2019 user comin' in hot:


1. yes, except buy four of them and max it out at 64gb like i did and ride thelightning :getin:
2. maybe, work accidentally bought me the i5 2019 instead of the i9. for my similar but slightly lighter workflow it's fine. I feel like the RAM really helps even things out though
3. probably not needed unless you want to attempt to run games. my work doesn't involve anything gpu related and I went with the integrated gpu and drive two additional displays ( 4k and a 1440p) and it's more than fine.

Housh
Jul 9, 2001




I baked my 2010 27" iMac GPU 3x and it's annoying garbage. I currently use it as a second monitor in target display mode and it's been running fine for now.

American McGay
Feb 28, 2010

by sebmojo
Buy a refurb 10-core iMac Pro for $5,000 :getin:

Lawen
Aug 7, 2000

Last Chance posted:

imac 2019 user comin' in hot:


1. yes, except buy four of them and max it out at 64gb like i did and ride thelightning :getin:
2. maybe, work accidentally bought me the i5 2019 instead of the i9. for my similar but slightly lighter workflow it's fine. I feel like the RAM really helps even things out though
3. probably not needed unless you want to attempt to run games. my work doesn't involve anything gpu related and I went with the integrated gpu and drive two additional displays ( 4k and a 1440p) and it's more than fine.

Awesome, thanks. Definitely sounds like the stock GPU will be plenty for me.
Did the stock 8GB RAM come as 2x4GB chips with 2 banks empty (so that I could throw in 32GB more and have 40GB) or 4x2GB with no empty slots? 64GB is tempting but if I can have 40GB for $150 I'd be fine.

Housh posted:

I baked my 2010 27" iMac GPU 3x and it's annoying garbage. I currently use it as a second monitor in target display mode and it's been running fine for now.

Ugh, that sucks. I figured that baking the card was going to be a long shot. Did it make things worse or just not help? Right now I could stick the iMac in a closet and leave it running as a headless plex/torrent/usenet server and that'd be better than it being completely dead.
I hadn't thought to try target display mode but that would help me isolate the problem. I figure the issue is either that the display panel is losing power or that the output from the GPU to the display is going in and out. If it works reliably in target display mode I'll know the problem is with the GPU rather than the display. The tricky part will be finding the right cables/dongles...

BobHoward
Feb 13, 2012

The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Lawen posted:

So, a couple questions about the 2019 iMac 27"...

Last Chance posted:

imac 2019 user comin' in hot:

More advice from a recent 2019 iMac buyer

You will have 40GB if you add two 16’s; there are four sockets and the factory 8GB is 2x4GB. That is probably enough RAM. It’s what I bought, I got exactly the same Crucial modules Last Chance linked (although I bought them on amazon since they were cheaper there), and they’re working fine.

However, if you want 64 or more, you should go with two of these 32GB SODIMMs rather than buying 4x16GB.

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-2666MHz-Memory-Computers-M471A4G43MB1/dp/B07N124XDS/

And yes, you can install four of these to reach 128GB in the non-pro 27” iMac, despite Apple claiming the max supported memory is 64GB. I think this is because 32GB sodimms weren’t on the market yet when the 2019 iMac shipped.

The i9 for $400 is worth it if you’re going to thrash the cpu. The cpu is socketed so technically you can upgrade to an i9 later, but the procedure for opening the machine is not for the faint of heart, requires you to buy special tools, and also a kit of the special double sided sticky tape needed to put it back together. Furthermore, Intel charges close to $500 for an i9-9900k, so it only makes sense to do this if you’re able to resell the cpu you take out. The 3.7-to-4.6 i5 is the unlocked i5-9600k, which apparently can be sold for about $200 to PC overclockers, but IMO the hassle isn’t worth it. I ended up not doing it even though I planned to (and did) open it up to replace the stock fusion drive with a cheap, big NVME ssd.

Finally, if you’re not in a rush, buy it from Apple’s refurb store. You save 15%, still get a 1 year warranty, and aside from the plainer box it came in, I can tell you mine looked exactly like new. Scan their listings once a day or so and have a firm idea of exactly what config is acceptable. Don’t be tempted just because something close pops up; Apple’s RAM prices are not worth it even at 15% off. If my experience is anything to go by, you won’t have to wait too long anyways: it took me only about five days to get exactly what I wanted (8gb/i9/vega/2TB fusion), checking once or twice a day. I figure that config’s probably a bit rare, too; most of the Vega listings had been upgraded to the 512GB ssd and 32gb ram or more.

American McGay
Feb 28, 2010

by sebmojo
Absolutely buy refurb if you can stand to wait a week or two. They're technically better than retail units because they've been gone through and checked on everything, and they come with the exact same warranty as well. There's no reason not to buy one.

You can use https://refurb-tracker.com to set up a specified loadout that you're looking for and get notified by email whenever the shop is updated and it's available.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Lawen posted:

My Late 2009 iMac 27" has been a beast and given me nearly 10 years of service but has recently started acting up a bit. The screen will just stop working randomly. Everything else is fine and I can still share screen via Finder or connect to it via VNC, it's just that the display turns off completely, backlight and all. I assume it's a thermal issue, it probably got hot enough that an old (poorly annealed) solder point lost contact and now as it heats and cools the connection sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I don't have much to lose at this point so I'm going to try this process of removing the video card and baking it in the oven to see if it helps but if anyone has experience with this problem or the "bake" process, I'm all ears.

Regardless of whether I can resurrect it, it's time for a new one. So, a couple questions about the 2019 iMac 27"...
1. RAM is user-serviceable again, right? So I should buy it with the default 8GB and then buy two of these to slap in and I'll save $450 with no downside?
2. The $400 bump to the i9 is worth it, right? I'll be using it for audio production (LogicX, Ableton, Native Instruments stuff, etc.) and devops-y stuff (running a bunch of dockers, a small CI/CD pipeline, a kubernetes lab, etc.) in addition to using it as a web browsing/video watching normal workstation. I'm thinking that the bump to the i9 should help with the first two things and add a little extra longevity to the system (I'd love to get another 9-10 years of use out of this one).
3. The VEGA GPU upgrade...worth it at $450? I have a separate gaming PC and I don't really do anything with motion graphics or animation. I do a bit of Photoshop/Lightroom but not frequently. I assume that the upgrade from the 580X to the VEGA isn't worth it in my situation but maybe I'm wrong?

I was looking at iMacs recently and that $400 to upgrade from six cores to eight is so gross when you can get a 12 core Ryzen 3 CPU full-stop for $499

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

I bought a 6 core Ryzen 2600 for $130 and it's a really good value. Don't look for value with Macs at least when it comes to specs. But they should consider doing some cheapo Mac minis with amd.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

Mu Zeta posted:

I bought a 6 core Ryzen 2600 for $130 and it's a really good value. Don't look for value with Macs at least when it comes to specs. But they should consider doing some cheapo Mac minis with amd.

This isn't like normal "apple tax" tho, nor am I specifically suggesting Apple work with AMD (although that'd be really cool if it meant getting more performance gains for less). Historically their pricing hasn't been super out-of-step with Intel in terms of how different CPU configs were valued.

This feels like it's the sort of situation where AMD pushes Intel to lower their own prices but then Apple takes their sweet time rolling out their own price changes to reflect that (if ever, and they don't just wait a year and then 'hey top of the line iMacs got a $200 price cut!' or whatever).

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

American McGay posted:

Buy a refurb 10-core iMac Pro for $5,000 :getin:

Lmao. You can make a 32C/64T Threadripper machine with 64GB of ram and two video cards for that kind of scratch.

Then just install MacOS in a VM. It would be faster than the iMac Pro.

American McGay
Feb 28, 2010

by sebmojo

ratbert90 posted:

Lmao. You can make a 32C/64T Threadripper machine with 64GB of ram and two video cards for that kind of scratch.

Then just install MacOS in a VM. It would be faster than the iMac Pro.
:frogout:

American McGay
Feb 28, 2010

by sebmojo
It's me. I'm the guy that posts in the Mac Hardware Megathread about how Apple products are overpriced and you can put together similar hardware on your own in a hackintosh and save money.

trilobite terror
Oct 20, 2007
BUT MY LIVELIHOOD DEPENDS ON THE FORUMS!

American McGay posted:

It's me. I'm the guy that posts in the Mac Hardware Megathread about how Apple products are overpriced and you can put together similar hardware on your own in a hackintosh and save money.

That definitely wasn’t my aim in posting what I did- more pointing out how the shifts AMD has recently made and their effects on Intel’s product lineup make Apple’s pricing look really out of step. I wish Apple were quicker/more proactive in responding to that kind of stuff but I also get that it’s kind of antithetical to their style.

FlapYoJacks
Feb 12, 2009

American McGay posted:

It's me. I'm the guy that posts in the Mac Hardware Megathread about how Apple products are overpriced and you can put together similar hardware on your own in a hackintosh and save money.

Normally I wouldn't but the iMac Pro truly is a ripoff.
I do have a MacBook pro, iPhone, Apple Watch, and a iPad Pro.

MarcusSA
Sep 23, 2007

Electric Bugaloo posted:

That definitely wasn’t my aim in posting what I did- more pointing out how the shifts AMD has recently made and their effects on Intel’s product lineup make Apple’s pricing look really out of step. I wish Apple were quicker/more proactive in responding to that kind of stuff but I also get that it’s kind of antithetical to their style.

I kinda get what you are saying but it’s also like saying that I wish Nintendo would drop the price of the switch because the Tegra chips are cheaper now.

asecondduck
Feb 18, 2011

by Nyc_Tattoo

MarcusSA posted:

I kinda get what you are saying but it’s also like saying that I wish Nintendo would drop the price of the switch because the Tegra chips are cheaper now.

This argument doesn't quite work now because Nintendo just updated the Switch with a new Tegra revision with a smaller die size that's almost certainly more expensive than the previous one :v:

Housh
Jul 9, 2001




Lawen posted:

Ugh, that sucks. I figured that baking the card was going to be a long shot. Did it make things worse or just not help? Right now I could stick the iMac in a closet and leave it running as a headless plex/torrent/usenet server and that'd be better than it being completely dead.
I hadn't thought to try target display mode but that would help me isolate the problem. I figure the issue is either that the display panel is losing power or that the output from the GPU to the display is going in and out. If it works reliably in target display mode I'll know the problem is with the GPU rather than the display. The tricky part will be finding the right cables/dongles...
My GPU was completely dead and it would put the computer into a constant boot loop with crazy glitchy gpu failure artifacts until it was completely dead. I baked it and it lasted a year or two before I had to bake it again as the ambient temperatures give cold solder joints and gotta reflow that crappy card again. There was a big thread of us and people who had apple care or even paid for a new card got another one that would just last 1 or 2 years. That's why I'm happy with a PC desktop and choose to get nvidia.

After baking it and the pain of opening it a few times it seems to be fine. I just leave it on 24/7 as a second screen and plex server for my music collection.

I'm curious how much eGPUs are developed

Lawen
Aug 7, 2000

BobHoward posted:

More advice from a recent 2019 iMac buyer

Thanks, this is helpful! 40GB RAM is plenty for now and I can always bump to 64 for another $150 if I see memory pressure creep up. Sounds like, for me, $400 to bump to i9 is worth paying a bit of a premium to not have to deal with the chip swap and resale hassle.

American McGay posted:

Absolutely buy refurb if you can stand to wait a week or two. They're technically better than retail units because they've been gone through and checked on everything, and they come with the exact same warranty as well. There's no reason not to buy one.

You can use https://refurb-tracker.com to set up a specified loadout that you're looking for and get notified by email whenever the shop is updated and it's available.

That refurb-tracker link is awesome, thanks.

Housh posted:

I baked it and it lasted a year or two before I had to bake it again as the ambient temperatures give cold solder joints and gotta reflow that crappy card again

Okay, I can live with that. I get why people were pissed at failures after a few years but honestly after 9-10 years I'm just shocked that this thing is still somewhat functional and useful so if I can get another year out of it with the bake method I'll give it a try.

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Gobbeldygook
May 13, 2009
Hates Native American people and tries to justify their genocides.

Put this racist on ignore immediately!

Housh posted:

I'm curious how much eGPUs are developed
They do work. You can carry around a lightweight laptop then come home and plug into a full power GPU. For gaming purposes they should be compared to either buying a PS4 or a cloud gaming subscription (e.g. GeForce Now is currently in a free open-ish beta and lets you fairly seamlessly play Windows games on your Mac).

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