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420 Gank Mid posted:Finally an interventionist willing to come to a reasonable compromise im down
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Aug 15, 2019 20:27
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Pacho posted:I think we have different concepts of "pressure". What I meant is pressuring the Maduro goverment into giving up, call elections or just plain abandoning Venezuela and having regional and global groups observe new fairer elections and the reconstruction of the country, because the opposition in Venezuela is too weak. I believe other countries in the region have the power to enact pressure this way because they are neighbours and peers Venezuela has to deal with for trade, diplomacy, assistance, etc. I don't believe US sanctions and the spectre of military intervention help in this regard because they just pressure Maduro and the military heads into being more entrenched, as they see no way out I guess they should have been a little more persuasive, right? They let the situation get real ugly.
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Aug 15, 2019 20:32
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BigFactory posted:International pressure is stronger than US pressure, especially since he’s been negotiating with UN member states who signed on to proposed resolutions. No. I just don't see how soft political measure from a governing body that has never actually had leverage to do anything would change things on the ground. China and Russia aren't what's keeping Maduro in place.
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Aug 15, 2019 21:43
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:No. I just don't see how soft political measure from a governing body that has never actually had leverage to do anything would change things on the ground. China and Russia aren't what's keeping Maduro in place. But they are actively preventing the UN from stepping in.
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Aug 15, 2019 22:51
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BigFactory posted:But they are actively preventing the UN from stepping in. Ah, so the China and Russia are standing in the way of the UN authorizing international intervention, not in the way of the Venezuelan people.
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Aug 15, 2019 23:03
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Ah, so the China and Russia are standing in the way of the UN authorizing international intervention, not in the way of the Venezuelan people. Maduro is standing in the way of the Venezuelan people. Well, when he’s not having them murdered.
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Aug 15, 2019 23:34
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Ah, so the China and Russia are standing in the way of the UN authorizing international intervention, not in the way of the Venezuelan people. lol it took 5 or so pages to get him to post his sincere opinion and even then he's doing it in the most oblique way possible useless shitposting of the highest order
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Aug 16, 2019 04:39
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what happens if maduro and the psuv win the next election? or are they not allowed to run?
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Aug 16, 2019 06:03
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jfood posted:what happens if maduro and the psuv win the next election? or are they not allowed to run? psuv & maduro being disqualified appear to be the only conditions team guaido would acknowledge as "free and fair"; they never mention the previously barred candidates were convicted of assassination attempts and armed insurrection, or that fielding no presidential candidate would signal to the national elections department that their party is not active and would require some groundwork to reactivate
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Aug 16, 2019 07:17
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Corky Romanovsky posted:psuv & maduro being disqualified appear to be the only conditions team guaido would acknowledge as "free and fair"; they never mention the previously barred candidates were convicted of assassination attempts and armed insurrection, or that fielding no presidential candidate would signal to the national elections department that their party is not active and would require some groundwork to reactivate You mean how Leopoldo Lopez was charged over a complete fabrication, one so bad that even the prosecutor who convicted him said was illegal and the result of state coercion after he defected? Or how the CNE changed the terms for the recall referendum twice during procedures? Or how the largest coalition party, the MUD, was forbidden from running due to some bizarre interpretation of the rules over “double militancy” that would also apply to the PSUV? Historical revisionism through omission, a Marxist classic. In any case, the answer to this is, the PSUV, yes, Maduro, no. The reason why Maduro can’t run is that he’s been tried and charged with a crime already, of corruption from the Odebrecht case, thus disqualifying him from running. The PSUV wouldn’t field him if they wanted to actually win anyway. This is of course contemplating the possibility that he’ll be able to run, when his best case scenario is that he’s exiled to Turkey after leaving the presidency.
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Aug 16, 2019 07:54
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That seems like the best case scenario to me too. I don’t see any possibility of Maduro leaving Venezuela nor stepping down before his current term is over, and I also don’t believe it’s possible that anyone except a PSUV candidate will win next time. We can only hope it is someone less criminally stupid, although undoubtedly corrupt. At least someone clever and corrupt will probably at least try to keep the lights on and people fed, though. Then maybe gradually in a generation things can get better. I mean, it’s happened to countries like Panama and Lebanon, so maybe Venezuela will be okay in 20 years too. I no longer think there’s any other chance though for something faster that is also good; that chance was lost back when the AN was declared invalid.
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Aug 16, 2019 09:48
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you guys sure are investing a lot of energy and words to try make genocide sound easier
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Aug 16, 2019 10:15
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Tollymain posted:you guys sure are investing a lot of energy and words to try make genocide sound easier The thousands murdered by Maduro don’t count?
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Aug 16, 2019 10:27
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lmao
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Aug 16, 2019 10:32
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the primary source of violence and lack of food in venezuela is the bougie bitches chavez failed to execute
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Aug 16, 2019 10:34
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so probably like, your dad or something (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 16, 2019 10:35
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I guess fnox is fine with sanctions and embargos starving Venezuelans since it's international pressure
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Aug 16, 2019 10:44
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Jose posted:I guess fnox is fine with sanctions and embargos starving Venezuelans since it's international pressure You’re fine with Maduro literally killing, torturing, arresting thousands, displacing and starving millions. You don’t have the moral high ground dude. You don’t give two fucks about starving Venezuelans, much like you didn’t give a gently caress about the people starving before 2017.
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Aug 16, 2019 11:11
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fnox posted:You’re fine with Maduro literally killing, torturing, arresting thousands, displacing and starving millions. You don’t have the moral high ground dude. You don’t give two fucks about starving Venezuelans, much like you didn’t give a gently caress about the people starving before 2017. Every single time you deflect with this poo poo. Oh you're against the embargo? Guess that means you are fine with Maduro killing thousands. It's the same poo poo we saw with Iraq. Oh you're against the invasion? Guess that means you're fine with Saddam killing thousands. Maybe people are simply against making things worse fnox
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Aug 16, 2019 11:39
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Zidrooner posted:Every single time you deflect with this poo poo. Oh you're against the embargo? Guess that means you are fine with Maduro killing thousands. It's the same poo poo we saw with Iraq. Oh you're against the invasion? Guess that means you're fine with Saddam killing thousands. Maybe people are simply against making things worse fnox Fnox is against the embargo.
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Aug 16, 2019 11:42
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BigFactory posted:The US sanctions convinced Maduro to stop turning away humanitarian aid at the border. This is a heavily understated part of that entire fiasco. The only reason there was controversy over the aid trucks is that Maduro very literally closed the border with Colombia to prevent them from getting in. The man was mobilizing police to prevent aid from entering a country under starvation. The first time he allowed Red Cross aid to enter the country was 2 months after that. The Red Cross previously could only operate in the missions they had in the country before the crisis, or at the Colombian border attending refugees. Elias_Maluco posted:You appears to be under the impression that we can actually do anything about it With that attitude you sure as gently caress can’t. Start small? Find a Venezuelan you can help, ask them about their situation and what you can do to help them. It may be too small to make a big difference but at the very least you won’t be hopelessly standing aside. fnox fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 11:45
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You appears to be under the impression that we can actually do anything about it
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Aug 16, 2019 11:53
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I would be happy to support an action that puts a stop to Maduro's crimes that doesn't end up hurting the Venezuelan people more. I don't know what that would look like but you admit you don't either. There are however actions being taken right now by the US though that ARE inflicting additional harm on Venezuelans and I think it's useful to voice opposition against such things. Bad action is in fact worse than inaction
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Aug 16, 2019 11:54
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Zidrooner posted:I would be happy to support an action that puts a stop to Maduro's crimes that doesn't end up hurting the Venezuelan people more. I don't know what that would look like but you admit you don't either. There are however actions being taken right now by the US though that ARE inflicting additional harm on Venezuelans and I think it's useful to voice opposition against such things. Bad action is in fact worse than inaction The US sanctions convinced Maduro to stop turning away humanitarian aid at the border.
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Aug 16, 2019 12:07
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BigFactory posted:The US sanctions convinced Maduro to stop turning away humanitarian aid at the border. Unless that aid provides more benefit than the deprivation brought on by the sanctions then that's a net negative
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Aug 16, 2019 12:27
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Zidrooner posted:Unless that aid provides more benefit than the deprivation brought on by the sanctions then that's a net negative No food + US food = negative food? Why was Maduro blocking aid from the Red Cross until only 2 months after the truck fiasco? Why were they forced for years to only operate in the Colombian border attending refugees? Does that sound correct to you? If the country is starving why is he blocking international aid?
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Aug 16, 2019 12:28
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Zidrooner posted:Unless that aid provides more benefit than the deprivation brought on by the sanctions then that's a net negative Yup it probably does.
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Aug 16, 2019 12:35
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fnox posted:With that attitude you sure as gently caress can’t. Start small? Find a Venezuelan you can help, ask them about their situation and what you can do to help them. It may be too small to make a big difference but at the very least you won’t be hopelessly standing aside.
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Aug 16, 2019 12:51
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fnox posted:No food + US food = negative food? Perhaps he suspected that the trucks may have been carrying arms for para militaries. Like the US has organized, many times before. Perhaps if the US had not established itself as completely untrustworthy for 40 years their involvement wouldn't immediately put a regime into a siege mentality. Perhaps if they stopped organizing assassination attempts that would also help. Why did the Columbian forces set fire to the trucks, pray tell? Just out of frustration with Maduro not letting them in?
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Aug 16, 2019 12:53
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BigFactory posted:Yup it probably does. Sure buddy
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Aug 16, 2019 12:55
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Perhaps he suspected that the trucks may have been carrying arms for para militaries. Like the US has organized, many times before. Perhaps if the US had not established itself as completely untrustworthy for 40 years their involvement wouldn't immediately put a regime into a siege mentality. Perhaps if they stopped organizing assassination attempts that would also help. So you’re saying maduro is paranoid because he’s been starving and murdering Venezuelans for half a decade and fears retribution?
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Aug 16, 2019 13:04
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:An insane position. Yup complete insanity. Couldn’t possibly work. It’s not like that’s how I left the country. Ron Paul Atreides posted:Perhaps he suspected that the trucks may have been carrying arms for para militaries. Like the US has organized, many times before. Perhaps if the US had not established itself as completely untrustworthy for 40 years their involvement wouldn't immediately put a regime into a siege mentality. Perhaps if they stopped organizing assassination attempts that would also help. Now it’s Colombian forces who burned the trucks? That’s some telephone game going on. If there were weapons in the trucks why the gently caress would they burn them? Also, how hard can it possibly be to, you know, unload just the food from the trucks, and then turn the trucks back if the concern is that they’re gonna sneak in weapons? This whole idea of the trucks having anything but food is contradicted by the trucks that DID make it through, and had, who would’ve guess, food aid in them!
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Aug 16, 2019 13:17
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BigFactory posted:So you’re saying maduro is paranoid because he’s been starving and murdering Venezuelans for half a decade and fears retribution? I'm saying they've been paranoid since multiples attempts at assassination dating back to Chavez. I'm saying that the way to fix this was the US not being a belligerent rear end in a top hat since Reagan. I'm saying sometimes there is nothing that can be done to help by outside forces that would not immediately worsen things. Honestly though I don't have time right now to go into exactly how I think I would hope things proceed to resolve this, but the main point is that it cannot be resolved with an F35 flyover. Any direct military involvement from any other state will create a civil war that will kill hundreds of thousands more and leave the country in ruins, likely not to recover for generations
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Aug 16, 2019 13:23
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fnox posted:Yup complete insanity. Couldn’t possibly work. It’s not like that’s how I left the country. The reports I've seen are that it was not Maduro forces that burned the trucks, rather it was an attempt to justify the US intervention that was imminent at the time before the insanity that is the Trump admin decided to not bother. I'm also skeptical that any foreign aide being offered is being okay'd to be distributed by the government forces, rather that there is insistence on bringing it in with NGO personnel, but I'll admit I don't know if that's the case. It's certainly been true in other circumstances. Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 13:40
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BigFactory posted:Fnox is against the embargo. right he wants "international pressure" but rejects any actual proposed or enacted measure that can be shown to have concrete negative effects, that way he gets to shout about how The Left is keeping Venezuela down while also low-key advocating for increased pain
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Aug 16, 2019 14:07
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brugroffil posted:right he wants "international pressure" but rejects any actual proposed or enacted measure that can be shown to have concrete negative effects, that way he gets to shout about how The Left is keeping Venezuela down while also low-key advocating for increased pain Such as? Ron Paul Atreides posted:The reports I've seen are that it was not Maduro forces that burned the trucks, rather it was an attempt to justify the US intervention that was imminent at the time before the insanity that is the Trump admin decided to not bother. It is ridiculous to assume that an US intervention was imminent even if you believe the trucks were intentionally burned. The reason why it was a lose/lose for Maduro is because he was stubbornly blocking aid and until then denying there was any sort of humanitarian crisis. It’s after that whole thing that he was forced to accept aid because of how ridiculous of a concept it is to send the loving military to block a truck with food when your country is starving.
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Aug 16, 2019 14:56
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fnox posted:Such as? US intervention was imminent. Bolton had plans to deploy troops. They are not behaving rationally and that is contributing to the insanity of the situation.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:24
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fnox posted:With that attitude you sure as gently caress can’t. Start small? Find a Venezuelan you can help, ask them about their situation and what you can do to help them. It may be too small to make a big difference but at the very least you won’t be hopelessly standing aside. Well Im not doing so well myself to be able to help with money, nor I live anywhere near where refugees are living, so I dunno what I could offer. Also helping venezuelans is cool and good, but that alone wont do anything to bring down Maduro Im prepared to protest on the streets if my fascist prez Bolsonaro decides to intervene along with Trump (like they threatened to do), or if they decide to expel the refugees from Brazil, other than that I dont know how could I have any influence I get your frustration and I know the situation is dire, but I dont think we (I mean, we the regular people) can really do anything to expel Maduro from power
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Aug 16, 2019 15:31
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:US intervention was imminent. Bolton had plans to deploy troops. They are not behaving rationally and that is contributing to the insanity of the situation. You mean the “5000 troops” scribble that was very much intentionally flashed before the cameras? Yeah no, there has never been any imminent danger of US attacks on Venezuela. No troop movements, no carriers in the area, no nothing. You could maybe argue that “advisors” where being prepared for an upcoming civil war but since that failed to happen, Trump lost interest in Venezuela other than tightening sanctions to show that he’s sticking it to the commies.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:51
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Honestly though I don't have time right now to go into exactly how I think I would hope things proceed to resolve this, but the main point is that it cannot be resolved with an F35 flyover. Any direct military involvement from any other state will create a civil war that will kill hundreds of thousands more and leave the country in ruins, likely not to recover for generations So you probably approve of exhausting non-military options before you get to that completely undesired outcome, right? Like cutting off the ability for top Venezuelan government and military officials to profiteer off the country? Sort of like sanctions?
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Aug 16, 2019 16:02
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