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Elias_Maluco posted:Im prepared to protest on the streets if my fascist prez Bolsonaro decides to intervene along with Trump (like they threatened to do), or if they decide to expel the refugees from Brazil, other than that I dont know how could I have any influence Would you protest in the streets to show your support of Maduro stepping down peacefully?
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Aug 16, 2019 16:05
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BigFactory posted:Would you protest in the streets to show your support of Maduro stepping down peacefully? Not right now, no. I dont think it would have any effect and I know a protest like that would be used internally by bolsonarists as a protest against the left
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Aug 16, 2019 16:32
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Elias_Maluco posted:Not right now, no. I dont think it would have any effect and I know a protest like that would be used internally by bolsonarists as a protest against the left Venezuelans are dying by the thousands and fleeing by the millions due to Maduro but you wouldn’t protest him because bolsonarists might use such a protest to own the libs? Guess what, right wingers across the world are being smug to the bursting point over Venezuela, whacking every socialist party who supported Chavez across the head with ”We told you this would happen” and “Venezuela is what Socialism gets you”. Maduro has done greater harm to the international left and the people of Venezuela than anyone except Bolton could dream about.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:43
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Noshtane posted:Venezuelans are dying by the thousands and fleeing by the millions due to Maduro but you wouldn’t protest him because bolsonarists might use such a protest to own the libs? It's absurd and embarrassing that you think one goon protesting in Brazil would do anything, and that you're going to tell him off for saying he won't do the obviously ridiculous thing.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:45
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Mischievous Mink posted:It's absurd and embarrassing that you think one goon protesting in Brazil would do anything, and that you're going to tell him off for saying he won't do the obviously ridiculous thing. What good would one Brazilian protesting US military intervention do?
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Aug 16, 2019 16:52
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BigFactory posted:So you probably approve of exhausting non-military options before you get to that completely undesired outcome, right? Like cutting off the ability for top Venezuelan government and military officials to profiteer off the country? Sort of like sanctions? Sanctions are bad and make things materially worse, though
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Aug 16, 2019 16:57
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Noshtane posted:Venezuelans are dying by the thousands and fleeing by the millions due to Maduro but you wouldn’t protest him because bolsonarists might use such a protest to own the libs? there is something so beautiful about "you don't know how bad you look right now" reaching its final form: "you not trying to coup a government I hate is really bad optics." pure, crystallized liberalism. remember that picture of Guaido during the coup attempt, boldly staring off into the distance, wondering "why won't the poors just do the right thing and die for me?" there is more than your aesthetic sense involved here
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Aug 16, 2019 17:00
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brugroffil posted:Sanctions are bad and make things materially worse, though The alternative might just be MOABs and drone strikes. Choose wisely
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Aug 16, 2019 17:00
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Mischievous Mink posted:It's absurd and embarrassing that you think one goon stopping using plastic bags would do anything, and that you're going to tell him off for saying he won't do the obviously ridiculous thing. Yeah, you're right, people shouldn't bother, defeatism is the only truth. Burn the whales and gently caress the oil.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:00
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:there is something so beautiful about "you don't know how bad you look right now" reaching its final form: "you not trying to coup a government I hate is really bad optics." pure, crystallized liberalism. Demanding that Maduro steps down ≠ begging for the US to start bombing. This isn't hard, even you should be able to figure it out. Maduro isn't some hero of the revolution, he is a criminal and a traitor to the socialist cause, so even the most die hard tankie should protest him too.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:05
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Noshtane posted:
The dudes posting in this thread all seem to really, really like him It’s weird.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:06
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Noshtane posted:Yeah, you're right, people shouldn't bother, defeatism is the only truth. Burn the whales and gently caress the oil. as a reminder, the opposition you are supporting is currently arguing: 1. we must starve Venezualans, to bring them food. 2. we must purge their doctors, to bring them health care. 3. we must sell off their industries, to bring them prosperity. 4. we must burn them in the streets, to bring them justice. if you are waiting for me to call Maduro good, you will be waiting a long time. unfortunately, "better than the opposition" is currently a much, much lower bar.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:08
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BigFactory posted:So you probably approve of exhausting non-military options before you get to that completely undesired outcome, right? Like cutting off the ability for top Venezuelan government and military officials to profiteer off the country? Sort of like sanctions? That's not what the Sanctions accomplish
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Aug 16, 2019 17:12
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:
What did he do wrong?
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Aug 16, 2019 17:12
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as a reminder, the opposition you are supporting is currently arguing: The opposition is not arguing this but Maduro is literally doing it. The guy you support is doing everything you falsely accuse the opposition of wanting to do. Also, defeatism when it comes to protesting injustice is still as stupid as defeatism in the face of global warming.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:14
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BigFactory posted:The dudes posting in this thread all seem to really, really like him It’s weird. It's that type of mentality where people would rather see the world burn than admit that they where wrong. You see it in brexiteers and climate change deniers too.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:18
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BigFactory posted:What good would one Brazilian protesting US military intervention do? Lots would protest against a war that would involve our country
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Aug 16, 2019 17:19
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BigFactory posted:What did he do wrong? the big one was he went along with the extremely stupid idea to tie his country's currency to the price of oil, which made them significantly better off while the price of oil was high but meant they would be doubly-hosed by any kind of oil price crash. the whole barely-controlled paramilitary as pressure release valve strategy can be most charitably described as a mixed bag, and while a lot of the reports about his personal corruption reek of "and also they eat babies" i have zero doubt whatsoever him and his friends are making good money off arbitraging their positions of power for those willing to pay. better than this guy is not a high bar. the guy bragging about his plan to purge the country of doctors in cooperation with The Guy Who Brought You Guatemala does not reach it.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:19
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Noshtane posted:The opposition is not arguing this but Maduro is literally doing it. the opposition is arguing that they need to starve venezuelans, in order to feed them. that is the literal, expressed purpose of the latest round of sanctions. the opposition is arguing that they need to purge the country of doctors, in order to bring them health care. one cannot permit the perfidious Cuban to operate within one's borders, if one is to be free of leftist taint. the opposition is arguing that they need to sell off Venezuelan industry, in order to bring them prosperity. Guaido put out an itemized loving list of how he planned to privatize government offices. and the opposition is arguing that they need to burn Venezuelans in the streets, in order to bring them justice. how else would one handle the problem of a black guy who someone said was a thief. how does that wonderful liberal shibboleth go? "do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good?" in this case it's more "let the bad at their jobs be the enemy of the full-out monstrous."
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Aug 16, 2019 17:23
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"We can't let Venezuela have free elections because the "opposition" might win and do Hypothetical Things. The fact that the current regime is in fact doing all of those things now not only doesn't mean more than my fantasy scenario but it actually has no weight whatsoever in my analysis." --I believe this is what is called "Marxist praxis"
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Aug 16, 2019 17:28
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Undoubtedly Venezuela and her people would be better off if they weren't being completely hosed over by almost the entire international community. Sanctions on Venezuela are pure cruelty at this point.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:30
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in this case it's more "let the bad at their jobs be the enemy of the full-out monstrous." https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...4170704105.html That’s pretty darn bad at your job. Bad day at the office.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:31
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M. Discordia posted:"We can't let Venezuela have free elections because the "opposition" might win and do Hypothetical Things. The fact that the current regime is in fact doing all of those things now not only doesn't mean more than my fantasy scenario but it actually has no weight whatsoever in my analysis." there there. if you want to watch the indiscriminate murder of hundreds of thousands for the crime of their continued existence being insufficiently convenient to US foreign policy, you've still got Yemen.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:34
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BigFactory posted:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.al...4170704105.html yup. astonishingly so. and yet, the opposition cannot find someone to oppose him with a stance on death squads better than "well, MINE will use power tools." crazy, huh
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Aug 16, 2019 17:35
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the opposition is arguing that they need to starve venezuelans, in order to feed them. that is the literal, expressed purpose of the latest round of sanctions. The. Guy. You. Support. Literally. Does. All. Those. Things. Already. Read those ten words. Read them again. Starvation as a weapon and tool of political pressure, denying medical aid for the same reason, selling off venezuelan assets to imperialist ambitions, torture centers and targeted racist killings and oppression of indigenous people. You are supporting the worst dictator the continent.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:36
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Noshtane posted:The. Guy. You. Support. Literally. Does. All. Those. Things. Already. you are supporting people who, as their sales pitch to their foreign backers, promise to do all that but harder, as they view them as unalloyed goods. better than Maduro should not be a high bar. and yet. oh, boy, And Yet.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:39
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M. Discordia posted:"We can't let Venezuela have free elections because the "opposition" might win and do Hypothetical Things. The fact that the current regime is in fact doing all of those things now not only doesn't mean more than my fantasy scenario but it actually has no weight whatsoever in my analysis." The argument isn't about free elections. It's about whether US or international intervention would have that end outcome, and whether sanctions contribute to that end or hinder it.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:40
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Noshtane posted:Venezuelans are dying by the thousands and fleeing by the millions due to Maduro but you wouldn’t protest him because bolsonarists might use such a protest to own the libs? As someone who lives in a country bordering Brasil I'm afraid Bolsonaro is crazy enough to start a war and try to involve the whole region
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Aug 16, 2019 17:43
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:yup. astonishingly so. When you conduct voter fraud and ban your opponents from elections you end up eventually scraping the bottom of the barrel for opposition, right? Would you run against Maduro if you thought you could be jailed or disappeared?
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Aug 16, 2019 17:47
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Pacho posted:As someone who lives in a country bordering Brasil I'm afraid Bolsonaro is crazy enough to start a war and try to involve the whole region They sure want that, his son (Eduardo, the same one he wants to nominate brazilian ambassador in the USA) even openly advocated for it But that would only happen if Trump gave the order, not even them are crazy enough to think Brazil could do that by itself
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Aug 16, 2019 17:49
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BigFactory posted:The dudes posting in this thread all seem to really, really like him It’s weird. I think it needs to be pointed out that a good portion of the latin american left is pretty chuddie: Homophobic, Misogynist, Nationalistic, Militaristic, Chauvinist, etc. We call the old-guard "the dinosaurs" and the young chuddie-lefties "Machoprogres". "Fatherland or death" is an actual cry of the left here and they totally resent the "New Left" that is more progressive, calling them postmodernists, sjws and other alt-right terms Guess which portion of the latinamerican left supports Maduro the most?
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Aug 16, 2019 17:51
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you are supporting people who, as their sales pitch to their foreign backers, promise to do all that but harder, as they view them as unalloyed goods. The fact that Maduro is close should be enough for you to say “yikes maybe they can do without this loving guy”.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:52
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fnox posted:The fact that Maduro is close should be enough for you to say “yikes maybe they can do without this loving guy”. no question. you go back through my posts you'll find me promoting "the colectivos toss him out on his rear end" as a desirable outcome. not one I put a lot of money on happening, all things considered, but a desirable one. in related news, the guys who tried to start a war between Colombia and Venezuela, on the grounds that they couldn't get Venezuelans to get behind them, are proudly running on We Will Be Worse.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:00
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:no question. you go back through my posts you'll find me promoting "the colectivos toss him out on his rear end" as a desirable outcome. not one I put a lot of money on happening, all things considered, but a desirable one. in related news, the guys who tried to start a war between Colombia and Venezuela, on the grounds that they couldn't get Venezuelans to get behind them, are proudly running on We Will Be Worse. So if the fairy tale outcome won’t happen, what’s next best thing? Assassination? Murked by one of his generals?
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Aug 16, 2019 18:06
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you are supporting people who, as their sales pitch to their foreign backers, promise to do all that but harder, as they view them as unalloyed goods. Please link me this sale pitch. No, Bolton is not and does not run the opposition, despite what tankies might think. Your guy Maduro on the other hand, he speaks for himself through actions and his actions are worse than those of Pinochet.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:06
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BigFactory posted:When you conduct voter fraud and ban your opponents from elections you end up eventually scraping the bottom of the barrel for opposition, right? Would you run against Maduro if you thought you could be jailed or disappeared? and so death squads go from atrocity that must be opposed unconditionally, to a negotiable blemish on otherwise Very Fine People. moral arguments are hard, huh.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:09
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Noshtane posted:Please link me this sale pitch. No, Bolton is not and does not run the opposition, despite what tankies might think. bolton does not run the opposition, you say. surely, then, you can find me someone in the Venezuelan opposition who has denounced the butcher tasked with removing Maduro. just one, who has commented "actually, siding with Team Sledgehammer Massacres For The Ethnically Questionable is a bad idea." the slightest gesture to demonstrate they are not a wholly owned and operated subsidiary of their proud American backers. because I recall that time Guaido's foreign PR tour was cut short, and notable Maduro mouthpiece Bloomberg informed us "the US state department has ordered him back to Venezuela THIS INSTANT young man." and I cannot help but wonder if you have a different set of opposition figures in mind.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:15
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and so death squads go from atrocity that must be opposed unconditionally, to a negotiable blemish on otherwise Very Fine People. I like the free and fair election idea. That’s what I’m for.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:21
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BigFactory posted:I like the free and fair election idea. That’s what I’m for. sounds good to me too. unfortunately, the opposition has made it clear they have no interest in them unless they're assured victory, and Maduro has made it clear he has no interest in them unless he's assured victory, so we find ourselves back at square one in a hurry.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:27
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and I cannot help but wonder if you have a different set of opposition figures in mind. Well, how about those who Maduro arrested for the crime of being polled as likely to win over him? And a guy who support Maduro shouldn't really throw stones in glass houses seeing how your guy is being propped up by Russia and China, not exactly paragons in the democracy department those two.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:30
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