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IMO they just need a way for the bots to start valuing what players value, even if it's not 1:1, so degenerate strategies become self correcting. I guess maybe that's tricky when you want them to also be drafting some semblance of an actual deck so you have some reasonable expectation for what's open as the draft progresses though.
Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 16:34
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Kalli posted:I know I almost definitely missed the conversation at some point but it seems weird they don't just seed the start of draft season with a bunch of bot drafts and just use something like Eternal's asynchronous drafting. Because then cards don’t wheel. Personally, I still think asynchronous drafting would be better than bot drafting, but apparently WotC decided the wheel is important.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:37
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they knew players would bitch no matter what draft format they put in Arena so they went with the one that took the least effort.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:47
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It's a shame that it is impossible to have a database update based on player choices and valuation. Perhaps some day computers will be able to learn via some sort of distributed network.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:48
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They put drafting bot updates in the patch notes so I'd guess they're getting some sort of data, but they just recently managed to implement patching that doesn't require you to redownload the entire client so I'm not holding my breath for auto-updates anytime soon.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:54
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Last week’s LR had one of the bot designers say he imagined they’d be an easy way for beginners to learn drafting before graduating to drafting against humans on Arena, then was annoyed when, no, it turns out you graduate to nothing instead.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:55
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Don't worry if you keep drafting and maybe buy the season pass that will show them how important it is to bother improving it.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:57
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vegetables posted:Last week’s LR had one of the bot designers say he imagined they’d be an easy way for beginners to learn drafting before graduating to drafting against humans on Arena, then was annoyed when, no, it turns out you graduate to nothing instead. That was probably Ryan Spain because I heard him talk about it on his twitch stream too. It's hard to beat bot drafting for convenience, so I wouldn't expect it to ever go away, but having human pods for traditional would be a good thing.
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Aug 16, 2019 16:59
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That time ben stark went 0-3 in a paper rna draft event because he tried to force gates
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Aug 16, 2019 17:02
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Sinteres posted:That was probably Ryan Spain because I heard him talk about it on his twitch stream too. It's hard to beat bot drafting for convenience, so I wouldn't expect it to ever go away, but having human pods for traditional would be a good thing. I fee like if you called the current draft style what it is, "bot draft" and the human draft something else, you'd see a lot of players turn their noses up at bot drafts and gravitate towards traditional drafts against humans because gamers have pretty negative attitudes about the word bot. Also you can charge more for some reason.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:05
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Cactrot posted:I fee like if you called the current draft style what it is, "bot draft" and the human draft something else, you'd see a lot of players turn their noses up at bot drafts and gravitate towards traditional drafts against humans because gamers have pretty negative attitudes about the word bot. Yeah I wouldn't call it bot draft in the client. Just leave it as ranked bo1 and have bots for that since it's the one based on quick play and throw in human pods for the players who want to spend more time playing bo3 in traditional. More options would be even better, but at some point you start splitting the player base which is something they clearly want to avoid.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:09
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The strategy in WAR was to draft Grixis to every time Also white was loving terrible in that set, way worse than M20
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Aug 16, 2019 17:21
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MikeCrotch posted:The strategy in WAR was to draft Grixis to every time was it as bad as black in AVR
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Aug 16, 2019 17:35
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Sinteres posted:Did other limited formats in Arena have such blatant strategies that only worked because of bot drafting, or is this one the most prominent so far? M19 had the Boros run you over deck or the mill deck, Guilds had Dimir, Allegiance had both the Defender creatures deck and a Gates/Mill deck, War had a few different bullshit things that could just wreck you. So yeah, on Arena there's always at least one stupidly powerful limited deck that can be forced super easy because the bots are dumb. I feel like Heart-piercer Bow isn't THAT bad compared to the others because if you can draft enough removal then they sit there with a bunch of artifacts while you bash their head in.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:54
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MikeCrotch posted:The strategy in WAR was to draft Grixis to every time my experience was WU was far and away the best non grixis color pair, the trick was it needs to be drafted as hard control, trying some aggro proliferate thing doesn't work. also tbf rarely ended up in WU without opening time wipe or teferi but it was really good. lots of people considered WG the best proliferate deck too, though i think GU was a little better. the problem with white was WR and BW were absolute dogshit with no plan or plans that just didn't work in the format, and only really came close to coming together at all when building around huatli (WB) or feather (WR)
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Aug 16, 2019 17:55
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WU was fine if you got a time wipe, but that was pretty much it. The commons were just so deep in Grixis and it was always seemingly open so there wasn't much of a reason not to draft it.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:02
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redneck nazgul posted:was it as bad as black in AVR Green in Battle for Zendikar might be worse than black was in AVR. I know BFZ was not a good format, but I had a lot of fun and did very well forcing the devoid colors so I am always going to have good memories of limited.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:08
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I don’t think the bows are that great. If you get a weaponsmith it’s fine but it’s pretty drat janky against a decent deck. It’s certainly not as crazy as the gates deck in RNA, where a turn 3 ram could just run you over and every gate synergy card ruled. I think the Temur elemental deck of any variation is insanely strong The problem with bot draft is that unless you get a really specific group of cards, you can keep drafting the same ideal deck every time. So why ever draft white in M20 unless you get a great group of flyers? Mike N Eich fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 18:11
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MikeCrotch posted:The strategy in WAR was to draft Grixis to every time I think all my wins were with UB, I don't remember splashing for red. I do remember how awful it felt to lose to the little kid WG proliferate deck when I didn't draw removal spells.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:11
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Sinteres posted:That was probably Ryan Spain because I heard him talk about it on his twitch stream too. It's hard to beat bot drafting for convenience, so I wouldn't expect it to ever go away, but having human pods for traditional would be a good thing. It's funny because a lot of purists were against leagues at first since you lost single-pod play but the convenience of not waiting was totally worth it, and iirc they left the old drafts around for a while to see if they maintained popularity and they shriveled up quickly. So they were right that convenience is greater than purity to some extent, but I still am not interested in playing exploit the bots. At all. I didn't even finish the free draft I got from some promo code. Then I see them spending all their dev time on stupid animations for mythics and cats and alt art junk and I get angry.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:15
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Bugsy posted:Green in Battle for Zendikar might be worse than black was in AVR. I've given it some thought, and I can't think of R/W/U equivalents for AVR Black or BFZ Green. Maybe white in the one set with the big color imbalance, way back when?
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Aug 16, 2019 18:41
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The Lord of Hats posted:I've given it some thought, and I can't think of R/W/U equivalents for AVR Black or BFZ Green. Maybe white in the one set with the big color imbalance, way back when? white was pretty bad in OOT yeah  divination over serra angel was also a defensible pick in Elyv fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Aug 16, 2019 |
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Aug 16, 2019 18:49
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Judgement didn't have enough good white and green to make up for torment and Odyssey.
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Aug 16, 2019 18:55
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redneck nazgul posted:was it as bad as black in AVR nah this stuff only comes up on arena. With humans, war of the spark can't support 8 grixis drafters so at some point you'll have a better time getting into white or green rather then force something that clearly isn't open. with bots every color will be drafted evenly, and there's zero self-correction. you should be taking solid grixis commons over green and white bombs
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Aug 16, 2019 19:06
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I was really tempted to start getting into draft, and I've done a couple now, but if the bots really narrow things down this much I feel like I may as well just crack packs instead.
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Aug 16, 2019 19:16
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I seem to recall that blue was pretty bad in Onslaught block drafting but the memory is a bit hazy.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:10
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I miss 3 set blocks  Drafting from one big set isn't nearly as fun or diverse as drafting from a big set and two small sets.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:14
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Sinteres posted:I was really tempted to start getting into draft, and I've done a couple now, but if the bots really narrow things down this much I feel like I may as well just crack packs instead. I don’t think it narrows things so much as keeps certain builds open at all times, and if they’re the optimal build there’s little incentive to build something inferior
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Aug 16, 2019 20:30
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Elyv posted:
I think you mean 14, 13 was a really good format (exalted) Salvor_Hardin posted:I seem to recall that blue was pretty bad in Onslaught block drafting but the memory is a bit hazy. Onslaught had the UR wizards deck with Lavamancer's Skill and mistforms which was arguably the best archetype if it came together. In Legions/Scourge it wasn't as good but nowhere near unplayable.
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Aug 16, 2019 20:34
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Sinteres posted:I was really tempted to start getting into draft, and I've done a couple now, but if the bots really narrow things down this much I feel like I may as well just crack packs instead. Drafting on Arena is fine
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Aug 16, 2019 20:44
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Lone Goat posted:I think you mean 14, 13 was a really good format (exalted) Hmm OK. I just remembered that elves and goblins were the most streamlined tribes with some of the best payoffs and wizards/birds were comparatively weaker with Zombies being in the middle. But that was a long time ago.
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Aug 16, 2019 21:14
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urza’s saga was the format where if there were seven black drafters at the table and you weren’t one of them you were the one making a mistake.
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Aug 16, 2019 21:22
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:Drafting on Arena is fine
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Aug 16, 2019 21:28
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Tibalt posted:It really is. In real life when you'd face the 7 other people who drafted with you, yeah, being the only WB drafter is going to give you a better shot of 3-0 then being the third RG drafter at the table, but if you're not squeezing in your game next to the two very loud X Wing players you're not getting the authentic experience anyway. I've played next to a french guy yelling quotes from the dawn of war games for his orks in a bad cockney accent. It was surreal.
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Aug 16, 2019 21:44
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:urza’s saga was the format where if there were seven black drafters at the table and you weren’t one of them you were the one making a mistake. Last draft set to have pestilence at common right?
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Aug 16, 2019 21:44
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Salvor_Hardin posted:Hmm OK. I just remembered that elves and goblins were the most streamlined tribes with some of the best payoffs and wizards/birds were comparatively weaker with Zombies being in the middle. It was nearly 20 years and i think blue was extra rear end if you didn't get Lavamancer's Skill, but who knows~
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Aug 16, 2019 22:00
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Lone Goat posted:I think you mean 14, 13 was a really good format (exalted) ah thanks, I definitely mix up m13-m15
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Aug 16, 2019 23:10
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ilmucche posted:I've played next to a french guy yelling quotes from the dawn of war games for his orks in a bad cockney accent. It was surreal. oh, they were playing age of sigmar?
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Aug 17, 2019 00:01
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M15 was when they reprinted the titans and no other good cards if I recall
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Aug 17, 2019 00:03
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MikeCrotch posted:M15 was when they reprinted the titans and no other good cards if I recall Titans didn't show up after M12 so thats probably something else
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Aug 17, 2019 00:22
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