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People are crushing it in here recently and it makes me so happy!
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Aug 8, 2019 23:38
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pumped up for school posted:Under new insurance I'd have to start meeting deductible and OOP limits again, looking at $15k (easy) in OOP by end of year. I have to crunch some numbers but it might be cheaper to get COBRA through current employer at least through the end of the calendar year when it would reset. Insurance is something I have a weak understanding of so any advice would be welcome. I don't know if you can get COBRA if there is something available to you through another employer.
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Aug 9, 2019 00:04
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This thread taught me how to clearly state increases in responsibility and my new boss was able to explain that to HR who took a look at my salary and basically said "No that's not right" so now I'm practically doubling my salary on an internal transfer and I probably wouldn't have gotten anything if I didn't know to raise the issue properly.
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Aug 9, 2019 01:30
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I am in the 3rd of 4 rounds of interviews for a new job. All my previous jobs as a chemist have involved 0 travel. This job, product manager, they say will be 30-50% travel, mostly staying within the US. I think that sounds like fun at least in the short term, my wife is neutral about it but supportive. Obviously I will do everything I can to let them lead with an offer, but is there a rule of thumb for travel requirements that should adjust the number I have in my head? Should I just anchor my internal expectations to the average product manager salary, $110k at Glassdoor (a very large raise)?
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Aug 9, 2019 17:04
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Fhqwhgads posted:This thread taught me how to clearly state increases in responsibility and my new boss was able to explain that to HR who took a look at my salary and basically said "No that's not right" so now I'm practically doubling my salary on an internal transfer and I probably wouldn't have gotten anything if I didn't know to raise the issue properly. Congrats! Most times you have to leave to get this to happen (I just did).
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Aug 9, 2019 17:22
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teardrop posted:I am in the 3rd of 4 rounds of interviews for a new job. All my previous jobs as a chemist have involved 0 travel. This job, product manager, they say will be 30-50% travel, mostly staying within the US. I think that sounds like fun at least in the short term, my wife is neutral about it but supportive. Obviously I will do everything I can to let them lead with an offer, but is there a rule of thumb for travel requirements that should adjust the number I have in my head? Should I just anchor my internal expectations to the average product manager salary, $110k at Glassdoor (a very large raise)? IMO you should ask for the sun and moon with a side order of stars and be content to walk away if they don't meet your price, because ... 1) If you've never had a job that involves a lot of travel before, you will underestimate how much of a drain constant travel is; 2) if they say it's 30-50% travel then it's very, very likely it will actually turn out to be more like 75%; and 3) (related to points 1 and 2) there's about a 90% chance that in about 3 months your currently neutral wife is going to become vehemently opposed to it. At the very least, if you DO take a travel-intensive job because it dramatically increases your income, do not raise your spending accordingly for at least a year. That way if you end up miserable 6 or 9 months from now you can still afford to switch back to a lower paying non-travel job. I have seen people get their lives destroyed by trapping themselves in travel-intensive jobs that make them miserable and their spouses divorce them. If you're going to try it, great, but at least leave yourself an out.
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Aug 9, 2019 21:26
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If you're not young and single, travel suuuuucks.
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Aug 9, 2019 22:26
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i have only traveled in my career, and do it a lot (~150-200 segments a year, probably 300k rear end in seat miles). i have been doing this level of travel (plus or minus a bit) since i was 23 years old. here are a couple things to think about: 1) my wife tolerates it pretty well, because i was doing it when we met. it was part of the package. if i switched in to a job like this from no travel, she would not tolerate it as well. you have to have a serious conversation with her about what it means for the two of you. 2) having a job like this mean that i gave up most hobbies especially those with other people that are regularly scheduled. playing soccer with my buddies in a league? out. singing in an amateur classical chorus? out. 3) i now... do not love traveling for vacation. 4) i don't plan to continue in this role once i start a family, that's loving nuts. if you have kids don't do this unless you hate them. 5) my brain is now wired for this type of role, i now go stir crazy if i'm home for too long. your brain is not wired for this and you will undergo a horrible transformation and become like me 6) make sure you clearly understand their travel policies before you accept the job. travel policies make or break your life. and as stated in another thread, usually the key that unlocks civilization, is revenue. is your role responsible for bringing in the $? totally agreed with Eric that travel estimates are almost always understated and regardless of what happens when you do the math, even if it is actually 50% it will feel like a whole lot more. i think if you do the math on my travel it's like 75%. it feels like 120%.
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Aug 10, 2019 02:32
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Yeah I personally would not be able to deal and I'd use it as an opportunity to practice telling them a number that feels ridiculous to you. 110k is their average? What would they say if you tell them you have one offer for 150k and another for 165k? Maybe that's still too low, I dunno, but naming a number is much less treacherous if you're willing to go for a longshot because you won't accept anything near what you expect them to offer. I think you should feel extremely comfortable with the idea that you can get job offers for 110k at this point - frankly you can see what number they name and confidently tell future employers that you have an offer for that if they open with a lowball. That said, I'm sure seeing a number much higher than your current one is pretty tempting, I get it, but a travel job is not something to jump into lightly. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 10:18
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Thank you all for talking some sense into me. I will read the business travel thread. I am in a pretty good spot for it, no kids, live cheaply, all my friends are long distance already, no group hobbies right now, outside of travel I would get to work from home a lot and my wife works remotely also. If I have a long trip to anywhere interesting maybe she’ll come and work from there so we have nights together. If I get through the next interview the following round is flying me out to senior leadership in London (small company) so after that much interviewing they should be invested enough to let me negotiate! Two jobs ago, I was paid like crap for 8.5 years so I’m a little star struck. But my last job was 6 months and awful so I’m also hesitant to risk another short stint. My other interviews are for positions that look $70-100k so I think I could get something stable and still decent if there are red flags with the travel job. teardrop fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Aug 10, 2019 |
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Aug 10, 2019 12:46
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Another note of travel: it really does effect your health. Even doing things right in regards to habits and maintenance, I felt 5 years younger after I quit my travel job. I'm sort of glad I did it. Gave me opportunities I wouldn't have had, but it's kind of like being an athlete. Don't assume you'll make the long hall, know when it's over, and have an exit strategy for when you're out.
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Aug 10, 2019 14:37
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Ehh, just like anything in life, a job with travel is better for some, less for others based on your individual situation. Pretty much everything KYOON said up there is relevant. I’m going to be 40 and I travel ~80% for work. The other 20%, I work remotely. I love it and I could never go back to a regular job. I do get stir crazy if I’m home too long, but I am married and my wife doesn’t mind as we got together when we were in our mid 30s. Regarding it not being healthy - that’s a personal problem. I still keep up with my exercise regimen when I’m on the road (cardio and weights) and I eat properly. With status, you end up getting a lot of free alcohol, so just stay disciplined with booze and expense account dinners and you’ll be fine. I’m the healthiest I’ve ever been and I travel constantly, but it’s because I’m disciplined.
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Aug 10, 2019 18:11
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Both you and your wife working remotely may sound good on paper but in my experience is not good.
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Aug 10, 2019 19:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Both you and your wife working remotely may sound good on paper but in my experience is not good. This. I'm remote a few days a week; my wife is remote a few days a week. I hate it when we are remote on the same day because I can't get anything done. Our work habits don't line up well, nor do our expectations of how we work. She has long since figured out that she can't really work from home - she has to go to the coffee shop to be successful at remote work, but sometimes tries anyway.
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Aug 10, 2019 22:54
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I have a reverse question (re: thread title) for this thread. I live in the SF bay area and make an astronomical sum of money compared to elsewhere in the USA, but being the bay area, it's still not enough to ever own a house out here or retire. If you know that your current salary is drastically higher than what any incoming offer for a comparable position would be anywhere else, would you give your current salary info in an attempt to anchor the salary on the high end of their pay range? Or is that just begging for a "reject outright, we can't afford him" as an answer? I'm okay with a pay cut to move back east since it'll also cut a zero off of the house prices, but I of course also want to squeeze every last drop from an employer that I can along the way.  If I can use my current income to my advantage in negotiations, I'm all for it.
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Aug 11, 2019 22:56
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Sundae posted:I have a reverse question (re: thread title) for this thread. Let's say I'm hiring for a role that has a market rate of $65-$75k. If the applicant tells me they make $110k in the bay area, I'm going to immediately think "That's not going to happen" and offer the middle of the market rate or lower, ~$70k. If the applicant tells me they need $80k to make the move, I'm going to offer $75k and explain it's the top of the budget and I understand if it means they need to take a pass. I'm not an expert or anything, so this is just an anecdote. I'd love to hear if other hiring managers agree with my reasoning or not.
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Aug 11, 2019 23:11
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Yeah, I think the size/caliber of companies you would likely be applying to will know how to do Baybucks-to-Normalbucks conversion. But it will still be helpful to you since you'll be able to set your ask very high with a straight face, and probably negotiate some peripheral stuff from there.
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Aug 12, 2019 00:34
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Sundae posted:I have a reverse question (re: thread title) for this thread. Upside: You've got the cojones to ask for what you should be getting paid. Downside: Employers will be quick to write you off as being above their price range. Like most rules "never say a number. jfc" has exceptions and you do meet them. Framing is important. "Well, I'm presently making $Baybucks. <mic drop>" tells someone that you're trying to maintain that income. "My current salary is $Baybucks, and I'm interested to hear what you can offer in a lower cost of living area." tells someone that you're up for the pay cut because while number go down, standard of living likely go up. Both anchor high. All the usual caveats of getting practice, negotiating being a skill, and skills getting better with use apply; if you try applying for a couple east coast jobs you're lukewarm on first it'll give you a warm up for the things you actually want to move for.
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Aug 13, 2019 02:09
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Yeah agreed with the above - I do think you should wait until the last possible point in the interview process before you say the number. Get them as invested as you can into hiring you, fulfilling all their needs, have them imagining all the good things you'll do for them before you explain that it's gonna cost 40% more than they wanted.
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Aug 13, 2019 02:48
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teardrop posted:Thank you all for talking some sense into me. I will read the business travel thread. I am in a pretty good spot for it, no kids, live cheaply, all my friends are long distance already, no group hobbies right now, outside of travel I would get to work from home a lot and my wife works remotely also. If I have a long trip to anywhere interesting maybe she’ll come and work from there so we have nights together. If I get through the next interview the following round is flying me out to senior leadership in London (small company) so after that much interviewing they should be invested enough to let me negotiate! I'm head of product management at my org and I don't travel even near 20%. When I was an actual Product Manager (not in product people & process management), I still didn't travel nearly that much. Typical vendor conferences, etc. Webex exists.
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Aug 13, 2019 16:07
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Cacafuego posted:Ehh, just like anything in life, a job with travel is better for some, less for others based on your individual situation. Pretty much everything KYOON said up there is relevant. I'm pushing back on this because I too remained disciplined with my health and still experienced the effects I was describing. People are built differently and responses are not always in our control.
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Aug 16, 2019 00:24
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Xguard86 posted:People are built differently and responses are not always in our control. Agreed, I can’t really argue with that. If you’re traveling a lot for work, as in your general life, you should try to maintain a healthy eating/exercise habit/don’t drink tons of alcohol. With a load of travel, you’re right, it can get pretty difficult at times, especially when you get status and you’re getting access to free food and booze all the time. I suppose it depends on your job too. If I was working all day and having to cram travel in there, that can get pretty stressful and may lead to more eating/drinking easily portable, unhealthy foods. I’m lucky in that I really am only working maybe 2 days onsite per week and I can gently caress off and leave whenever I want so I’m not trying to beat rush hour. It’s not really a binary thing is I guess what I’m trying to say - it’s not great or horrible. It can be either, both, or in between, but it’s what you make of it based on your personality, body type, food preference, etc, etc
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Aug 16, 2019 03:03
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as you stated it's also strongly based on the nature of the job - "travel" is kind of meaningless at some level
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Aug 16, 2019 18:06
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I have an on-site interview tomorrow that I think is a final round interview, so I have a couple of last-minute questions vis a vis compensation discussions: 1. The salary question has come up zero times in the multiple phone screens I've had for this position. That would be good, except that this role is new for them and a somewhat unique title generally speaking, so my reference point for "I want to get paid this much" is tied to my current salary + extra and not really rooted in anything quantifiable beyond that. Do I simply deflect any and all attempts to discuss base compensation until they decide whether or not to make an offer? FWIW the woman who scheduled the interview made it sound like they would make an offer while I was on-site if they liked me well enough, so I feel like I should be prepared to get into it tomorrow. 2. I would have the option of commuting to this office by train instead of driving, and it would sure be nice if they could pay for my rail pass to do so. If I get an offer, do I explicitly say "I'd like you to pay for my rail pass to get me to and from work" or take a more general route and make a counter-offer of X + [Yearly cost of rail pass] and not say that it's for my commute?
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Aug 20, 2019 18:48
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are they for some reason offering to pay for your parking space or something of this nature? you can try to negotiate anything you want if you ask but it's probably a good idea if it's at least somewhat anchored in company norms. if they don't do stuff like this you'll get a better result for asking for X more in salary where X is the pretax cost of your rail pass.
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Aug 21, 2019 01:44
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Yeah, the rail pass sounds like something they'll either a) already hand out automatically b) a lot of extra work for little gain wrap the rail pass into broader discussion on COL
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Aug 21, 2019 02:09
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Blech, just applied for a job and there's a required drop down menu for your salary requirements. Ended up just tacking on 20% to my current salary that's in the same location/industry. I'm willing to take a 5% bump so I figure anything beyond that will be gravy.
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Aug 21, 2019 02:25
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Any good sources for salary data other than Glassdoor, or should I just trust Glassdoor, or would you say ignore this poo poo altogether? Going through a slight career pivot (or almost a re-pivot: was on the marketing track, took a detour into sales for a few years, now heading back, already working cross-functionally at my current company, but want to focus 100% in marketing at my next gig). Having some trouble gauging what I should be reasonably shooting for salary-wise. Currently interviewing with a handful of larger tech startups (some barely startups anymore) for product marketing specialist and content marketing manager roles. Everything I see on sites like Glassdoor or PayScale gives me a pretty poor impression, and makes me think I should just stick to sales. At the same time when I talk to friends in similar positions, they seem to be earning decently, leaving me at a bit of a loss as to what data I should rely on to 1) not sound like an idiot when negotiating, 2) not undersell myself. I'm in a major Canadian city if that helps (so by US standards will probably be underpaid regardless, but yay healthcare). Edit: remembered that I know how to use google, and Robert Half has some decent info it looks like, so maybe nvm... lite frisk fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 04:03
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I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice: Got laid off in January, and after a brutal search took something that provided benefits and some income/upside but not at the level I was before (long story, not going into it here). Went through the process at a large software company, and never once gave a number. I was also an idiot and didn’t ask for the range (I should have). Got through the interview process and the hiring manager finally wanted to talk numbers. I was offered $5k less base but a good overall package (bonus and RSUs). Ended up negotiating for $20k more base (so $15k more per year compared to previous) and they bumped the OTE a few k as well. I was able to do this because I knew my worth and stuck to my guns (and I knew they wanted me). Offer accepted, I start after Labor Day. Here’s the tricky part: I currently work for the CEO of a small company, and my compensation is nearly entirely tied to how much I directly bill customers (basically high end consulting work). I am not billing now and am not scheduled to start a project until after Labor Day. I want to be decent and give notice, but since I’m not billing (and the company isn’t in great financial position right now) it would be easier and cheaper for the CEO to just let me go immediately vs have me stay another two weeks. I can’t afford to do COBRA and not get paid anything for two weeks before my new job starts. I tried to get my new job to start me next week but they can’t move that fast. I think I just need to quit in two weeks vs giving notice and screwing myself when I end up with no income and an insurance gap (and a family who needs it). Yes, I’m an At-Will employee. Yes, its a lovely move. Yes, I think the CEO would just term me if I resigned, since I’m costing him money. Am I crazy?
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Aug 21, 2019 05:24
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The plant manager of the 1000+ employee facility where I work recently quit on 5 days notice. Do what you gotta.
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Aug 21, 2019 05:45
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Ultimate Mango posted:I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice:  You’re burning a bridge with a small company that’s under water.
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Aug 21, 2019 13:32
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Ultimate Mango posted:I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice: It is not your job to make an industry fair. If it wasn't for America's Actually Factually Insane and Cruel Insurance System I'd say be honest and leave now, but since you have a family to care for hold onto that insurance until you can make that smooth transition.
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Aug 21, 2019 13:43
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I would probably do what you plan but you do have 60 days to accept COBRA as long as you pay your premium before day 60. Also your employer may not offer COBRA coverage if it is a very small company as they can be exempt I believe. So if your new coverage starts on labor day you could just do a wait and see.
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Aug 21, 2019 14:01
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Thread, I'm attempting to negotiate for the first time in my career. I did all I could during the process to not name a range, but I ended up being dumb and naming it. However, I named a range that was higher than my "it's not worth me leaving this job" number. The job I want to take came in at the lowest end of that range, $130k. I think they can do better - they're a big bank. They do have a bonus package, defined as "0-35%" based on annual reviews, paid out annually (not quarterly), and a stock purchase offer that allows you to buy up stock quarterly at its lowest point that quarter, then sell instantly. Those are darn good but they aren't base salary - I've been burned on bonuses plenty of times in my career. The HR guy I've been working with was transparent in that a committee within the business makes the salary determinations; 9 times out of 10 they come in within or above a range named by the candidate, 1 time out of 10 they come in with a lower number. Glassdoor has a few people with my title or similar making higher than that, but realistically $130k isn't that bad. Still, I'm going to take a shot at negotiation. I don't think they'll withdraw the offer if I try, but if I do, I gotta reconcile with the fact that they might not be the best place. Even if they counter, I'll hopefully come away with something. Moreover, they combine PTO and sick time, my current job doesn't. I'm not keen on that - "get sick, no vacation" has always been a lovely practice. I'm doing what I can to draw out the process before I accept/counteroffer. Asked questions on healthcare costs, asked questions about other specifics, etc. I've drafted this as an email to go back to the HR coordinator running the process. Totally open to criticism. quote:Hi John - MJP fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 16:38
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The first paragraph could be worded more strongly, and I don’t think you should include anything about your current salary or health situations.
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Aug 21, 2019 16:48
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Ultimate Mango posted:I realize I’ve been gone for a while but wanted to come back and share a success story and ask for advice: You're burning a bridge if you do this. You may also be eligible for unemployment if they let you go immediately vs having you stay two weeks.
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Aug 21, 2019 17:00
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Jordan7hm posted:The first paragraph could be worded more strongly, and I don’t think you should include anything about your current salary or health situations. So for the first paragraph, how about something like this: quote:blah blah blah thanks As to the healthcare costs part, I'd replace quote:Also, my wife and I both have our respective medical situations which have involved meeting and exceeding our family deductible annually. Given historical upward trends in healthcare costs and their eventual passing-on to individual participants in health plans, I'd like to be able to account for that going into the role and for the future. with quote:Also, given current historical upward trends in healthcare costs and my share of them in terms of premiums, I'd like to be able to account for costs starting out now and for the future. How's that look? Edit: commenters elsewhere have suggested I remove the parts about the stock purchase thing and healthcare. Would it be best if I just tried to get more salary based on Glassdoor reporting and more PTO based on my current package being better? If I can't justify based on my personal situation for concern of being a whiner/high maintenance employee, thus getting an offer rescinded, I might as well justify based on the actual facts of the situation as best as I can present them. Edit 2: I took the criticism I received and voice mailed/emailed with this: quote:Hi Joe - I just tried you and left a voice mail. I'd like to make a counter-offer. MJP fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 17:01
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leper khan posted:
Not a Children posted:It is not your job to make an industry fair. If it wasn't for America's Actually Factually Insane and Cruel Insurance System I'd say be honest and leave now, but since you have a family to care for hold onto that insurance until you can make that smooth transition. spwrozek posted:I would probably do what you plan but you do have 60 days to accept COBRA as long as you pay your premium before day 60. Also your employer may not offer COBRA coverage if it is a very small company as they can be exempt I believe. Zauper posted:You're burning a bridge if you do this. This thread always delivers, I like that there are a few different perspectives here. Given my current employer's position, I seriously doubt they would keep me until September 3. That means I would have to do some Cobra since insurance at the new job doesn't start until the 3rd or 4th. Cobra would be somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,800. I don't know that I would be eligible for unemployment (I basically used that benefit for all I can this year already during my period of unemployment). Yes, I could play the 'wait and see' game with insurance, but short strokes are I know I'll need it for reasons not pertinent here. I would hate to burn a bridge, but it kind of is like burning a bridge made of popsicle sticks in the backyard. Still not something I want to do. Sadly the thing I am kicking myself most over is not asking for the range during the interview process. I suppose I have to look out for number one, and be as kind as I can to the people on the titanic behind me (my friend who recruited me is also looking to leave).
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Aug 21, 2019 17:15
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That letter is way long and none of your reasoning or justification are things they care about. Don't mention your wife, your health, your tax considerations, how stable you think their bonuses are. They know how much you're worth to them, and none of that other poo poo matters. IMO (tell me if I'm wrong): "I'm so excited to start with Company, etc. To match my current position's vacation time, I would need 25 days PTO at a base salary of 140k or a commensurate increase in salary if it's not feasible to change the PTO. Let me know if there's anything else you need from me to move ahead. I'm looking forward to starting with you soon."
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Aug 21, 2019 18:25
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moana posted:That letter is way long and none of your reasoning or justification are things they care about. Don't mention your wife, your health, your tax considerations, how stable you think their bonuses are. They know how much you're worth to them, and none of that other poo poo matters. Agreed with all of this. Keep it concise and to the point. Don't bring all your personal details into the discussion - they don't care about the details, and if anything it's information that could theoretically be used against you. Just bring the numbers that are the result of all your thinking and calculations. Leverage the PTO difference into more money, since they will almost certainly not budge on PTO policy. If you're writing paragraphs in these exchanges you're saying too much. Guinness fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Aug 21, 2019 |
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Aug 21, 2019 18:37
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