|
Bigass Moth posted:I like the high fantasy setting of D&D but don’t have time for the 40 years of lore, and I imagine every possible character build has already been done and optimized by someone far nerdier than me. D&D doesn't have a metaplot unless you're going to try to commit hard to being faithful to an old and established campaign setting. And even then the only one with that much lore is the Forgotten Realms. You're not going to avoid someone scooping you on "optimized builds" no matter what system you go for and I don't see how that matters outside of a nonexistent organized pvp environment.
|
#
?
Aug 21, 2019 23:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 14:51 |
|
|
RPGs with metaplots genuinely interest me but not enough to actually read a million splatbooks. Someone needs to make a FATAL and Friends style thread that covers the insanity of the World of Darkness lines
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 01:22
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:I like the high fantasy setting of D&D but don’t have time for the 40 years of lore, and I imagine every possible character build has already been done and optimized by someone far nerdier than me. Optimized Characters: If it's 4e then you just follow a guide and avoid things labelled "frostcheese" or "Radiant Mafia" unless you hate your DM. If it's 5e there are too few choices to really optimize, just pick "Variant Human" and one of the good classes. The good classes have spells. If you don't like the idea of playing a build that's been done before then you are out of luck because there's a finite number of non-stupid decisions in any of these crunchy RPGs. Lore: D&D has multiple settings. A lot of game settings are just made up "homebrew." I've grown to dislike those because homebrew usually means mostly empty and stereotypical. Forgotten Realms is usually the default and it's filled with Lore but none of it matters, its videogame adventure fantasy land. You might have to read part of a setting book for Eberron or Dark Sun or whatever, but that's worth doing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 01:22
|
|
|
So if only magic characters are good then it’s just like Shadowrun. Kind of a bummer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 01:52
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:So if only magic characters are good then it’s just like Shadowrun. Kind of a bummer. Pathfinder 2e just came out, that's rules-heavy with only like 10 years of lore if you must know everything and pretty balanced class design, magic or non-magic.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 02:00
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:So if only magic characters are good then it’s just like Shadowrun. Kind of a bummer. Can I interest you in a little thing called 4E and its friend The Brawler Fighter? I had a character that was just breaking giants' backs and choke-slamming hydras. It was great. My then-girlfriend did eventually make me put away Randy Savage soundboard I'd loaded up because apparently it was annoying, but it was great while it lasted.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 02:36
|
|
|
Her poor opinions vis-a-vis Randy Savage are why she's "then-girlfriend" and not "now-girlfriend" I assume?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 02:50
|
|
|
Ilor posted:Her poor opinions vis-a-vis Randy Savage are why she's "then-girlfriend" and not "now-girlfriend" I assume? I mean it's not actually true, but I feel compelled to answer, "O YEAH!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 03:04
|
|
|
Traveller 5 for SF crunch. You get vehicle and ship design systems, tools to roll up whole sectors of space down to the critters who live on all those worlds. Space combat and a surprisingly comprehensive task resolution system also included. I've got the new edition coming soon and will queue up an F&F review. And we've got maps ! https://travellermap.com/?p=-94.9!69.663!8.75 Just sloowly zoom out.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 03:11
|
|
|
mllaneza posted:Traveller 5 for SF crunch. You get vehicle and ship design systems, tools to roll up whole sectors of space down to the critters who live on all those worlds. Space combat and a surprisingly comprehensive task resolution system also included. I've got the new edition coming soon and will queue up an F&F review. Godspeed you brave crazy diamond. If you ever run a pbp I'd be there in a heartbeat just to say I've done it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 03:48
|
|
|
Hypnobeard posted:Godspeed you brave crazy diamond. If you ever run a pbp I'd be there in a heartbeat just to say I've done it. Please?
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 03:50
|
|
|
Arivia posted:Pathfinder 2e just came out, that's rules-heavy with only like 10 years of lore if you must know everything and pretty balanced class design, magic or non-magic. Unless it changed massively from the playtest this is categorically untrue edit: lol, a level 20 Fighter can attack one time extra each round! The wonder! The power! A level 20 Wizard gets fuckin' Wish. Man they sure have balanced things. Darwinism fucked around with this message at 04:07 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 04:01
|
|
|
Darwinism posted:Unless it changed massively from the playtest this is categorically untrue Uh, wish isn’t necessarily the world changing spell you think it is in PF2e. It can cast a free arcane spell up to level 9, a free non-arcane spell up to level 7, remove a condition that refers to wish, or “produce any effect whose power level is in line with those effects” which, even if you’re feeling spicy and your GM is lenient, isn’t the same as being able to be king of everything forever And, with the way the action economy works, being permanently quickened is actually really good Edit: way that it works out is both classes get something for free, with wizard it’s a free (good) spell that they didn’t have to prepare and with the fighter, it’s either a free attack, every turn, forever. I would call those comparable! thetoughestbean fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 08:12
|
|
|
I'm sure it is, which is why many people would question why it's at a level capstone a tiny fraction of players will ever see. e: "No, see, the Fighter and Wizard are balanced, because the Wizard can only cast X number of spells per day, but a Fighter can attack infinite times a day!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 08:29
|
|
|
I will always play Traveller, no matter the edition...even...2300AD
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 08:46
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:Edit: way that it works out is both classes get something for free, with wizard it’s a free (good) spell that they didn’t have to prepare and with the fighter, it’s either a free attack, every turn, forever. I would call those comparable!
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 08:58
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:So if only magic characters are good then it’s just like Shadowrun. Kind of a bummer.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:00
|
|
|
Splicer posted:*in extremely cliched but still accurate voice* The fighter gets better at fighting, the wizard gets better at deciding if the fight happens. Narrative agency is more important in an RPG than getting better at number go down. I looked through the spells and the wizard doesn’t actually have that many tools to just stop encounters from happening I mean, I pretty much only play martial characters and I felt pretty drat excited about how martials matched up to casters when I read 2e. A raging barbarian can turn into a dragon, for goodness sake
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:02
|
|
|
I think the best way to describe Pathfinder 2e is that it's much, much better at doing what Pathfinder wants to do. The narrative agency is all over the place but the new systems in place ensure each class has meaningful mechanical options.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:02
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:So if only magic characters are good then it’s just like Shadowrun. Kind of a bummer. Welcome to every edition of D&D that isn't 4E/BECMI. D&D is a series of garbage games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:21
|
|
|
It seems to me that Pathfinder 2E is basically a fiddlier 4E Essentials.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:24
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:I will always play Traveller, no matter the edition...even...2300AD Traveller20 is.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 09:45
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It seems to me that Pathfinder 2E is basically a fiddlier 4E Essentials. Wow, it's all the things I hate.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 10:37
|
|
|
Ferrinus posted:It seems to me that Pathfinder 2E is basically a fiddlier 4E Essentials. If you're playing a Fighter your class feats are similar to 4E powers except worse and with a crappy layout, and 1st level fighter powers are things like, if you attack with this power, and you miss, then your next attack does not take a -5 penalty to hit, and if you hit you get nothing except having given up the opportunity to use a better power. 1st level Wizard powers are things like gaining a familiar and copy pastes of all the old broken metamagic feats. But hey at least they've finally moved to a standardised class progression ahahah no, the feat/powers setup is on top of the existing spell system, not instead of, so it's the same old poo poo except Wizards now also get the same amount of bonus feats as Fighters and also their feats are better and also you can critically fail saves. But Fighters can attack all day and wizards can cast cantrips all day but that's different because and make opportunity attacks!!! e: weird brain fart on when you gain feats Splicer fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 10:57
|
|
|
thetoughestbean posted:I looked through the spells and the wizard doesn’t actually have that many tools to just stop encounters from happening
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:11
|
|
|
Someone: "Pathfinder 2e is a solid evolution of the familiar framework with many notable improvements." This thread: "THEY DIDN'T FIX WIZARD SUPREMACY!!!!"
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:37
|
|
|
Zurui posted:"Pathfinder 2e is a solid evolution of the familiar framework with many notable improvements."
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:40
|
|
|
Splicer posted:Such as - Simplified action economy - Improved skill system - Removal of BAB - Directed feat selection - Degrees of success - Better encumbrance rules I mean, you can rag on it for being basically a Paizo-style implementation of Essentials but like, as the Second Edition of the Pathfinder Role-playing Game it's a great improvement.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:51
|
|
|
Zurui posted:This thread: "THEY DIDN'T FIX WIZARD SUPREMACY!!!!" It's been a recognised issue with the OGL since its' inception, they've had 15 years to fix it. Why haven't they? Why should I support a game that won't fix persistent, unavoidable core issues that make it so some of my players will have less fun playing the same game? quote:- Better encumbrance rules They still have encumbrance rules? lol
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:53
|
|
|
Zurui posted:- Simplified action economy e: I was assuming when you referred to "the familiar framework" you were referring to the D&D milieu as a whole, because who the hell wouldn't. removed some stuff after here for being excessively mean. Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 11:57
|
|
|
My main beef with Pathfinder 2 is that despite there clearly being a formula to determine monster math, they not only don't publicise it but they also offer no guidelines -- not even a hint! -- on how to create your own enemies. I'm assuming this is so they can sell an endless string of bestiaries to consumers made helpless by this obfuscation.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 12:06
|
|
|
Zeerust posted:They still have encumbrance rules? lol It's this attitude that baffles me. Like, of course they still have encumbrance. In a game where a significant part of the goal is to literally carry poo poo, you want rules for how much poo poo you can carry. Pathfinder 2e appeals because there's no actively supported D&D clone that operates on its level of granularity and rules crunch. I mean, I generally prefer other games - we just played The King is Dead and I'm currently trying to get together a group for Dream Askew - but we've come back to PF a couple of times when we want to feel like we're playing second edition AD&D again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 12:09
|
|
|
Also while I approve of tiers of success in principle, Pathfinder 2E has an extremely unsuitable implementation. Like 3.x and 4E and Pathfinder before it, Pathfinder 2E is riddled with circumstantial bonuses. Thanks to their specific implementation, even if you roll a nat1 or a nat20 you still need to add up every. single. one. of the circumstantial bonuses to see what your end result is. One of the easiest ways to speed up combat and such in circumstantial bonus systems is to have the players roll and only count up the modifiers if they would make a difference. PF2's implementation drastically increases the amount of the time each fiddly bonus will matter. Again, this works fine in a system with minimal or no fiddly bonuses, but lots of fiddly bonuses and tiered success? Bad fit. Everything I'm seeing in the PF2 rules could be, at best, described as two steps forward one step back, or a shittier implementation of something seen elsewhere. So far it's an entire system of Cooke proudly showing off his cool Passive Perception idea. Splicer fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 12:15
|
|
|
Unless they either did something literally magical to make it a compelling experience or made it a major element of the game, encumbrance rules are largely ignored, because tracking how much stuff your heroes can carry is asinine and tedious. There are games where what you can carry matters, but not in the D&D lineage by and large, and I've never played or run a game where it wasn't ignored entirely, to the objective benefit of the play experience. Zeerust fucked around with this message at 13:46 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 12:16
|
|
|
Not fixing Caster Supremacy is just the easiest one to call out, because it's so glaringly obvious from even a cursory glance at the system and becomes worse and worse the deeper you delve. If you try to sell me on a new model car and talk about how improved the maximum range is, that's kind of pointless if the improved range is still significantly worse than comparable cars on the market and/or it's so poorly integrated it comes at a disproportionate reduction in gas mileage and horsepower. More importantly, if you try to sell me on a new model car and talk about how improved the maximum range is I'm probably not going to lead my review with that if the new version still doesn't have any brakes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 12:27
|
|
|
Bigass Moth posted:Because I hate my sanity I am looking for a very number crunchy game to obsess over. I am very experienced with Shadowrun, so you know my threshold for self harm is quite high. I want a similar level of choice and optimization but hopefully better writing and coherent rules. Try Valor and then let me know how it goes? No MM, and monsters being pcs with less points and a math fix has made it too much work for me to really dig into in play. 4e with splats is really good, if you are a player and not a GM, that's the way to go.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 15:21
|
|
|
Moriatti posted:Try Valor and then let me know how it goes? No MM, and monsters being pcs with less points and a math fix has made it too much work for me to really dig into in play. Are the 4E webtools still available if you pay WotC? I remember those making the most time-consuming part (encounter design) a shitload easier because I could just browse through every monster appropriate and just throw in whatever had abilities that fit the encounter, reskinning as needed Otherwise yeah there's kind of a disproportionate burden on 4E DMs in making interesting, complex enough encounters for their players, especially as said players get bigger toolkits of fancier powers.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Splicer posted:What's your tolerance for a juvenile fascination with blood and poop? Shadow of the Demon Lord might be up your alley. SotDL still has massive caster supremacy issues. Like, they closed the gap between a very naively built martial character and a very naively built caster by making the former deal more damage and the latter have slightly less narrative control (and daily spellcasting is more limited than D&D), but the minute you start applying actual charop to SotDL, every party role is best served by someone who can cast spells. e: the bright side is that it's actually kind of fun to forcibly hammer Shadow of the Demon Lord characters into playing like e.g. Defenders, it's just that the key to doing this is Nature magic and finagling a way to make your character immune to difficult terrain and then going Spellguard so you can make a giant tarpit and cast immobilizing/forced movement spells when you hit things with your sword meanwhile the actual "Defender" path doesn't get the ability to interrupt enemy movement until literally the very last session of a normal campaign, at level 10 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 22, 2019 |
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
Hypnobeard posted:Godspeed you brave crazy diamond. If you ever run a pbp I'd be there in a heartbeat just to say I've done it. I'm more likely to run my PbtA hack if I ever do a little more work on it. I haven't really touched it since the playtest Humbug was in. But T5 must be addressed somehow.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 18:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 14:51 |
|
|
Yeah at higher levels I found definite caster supremacy in SotDL that only got worse with new supplements. Also the Order tradition should be wiped from the game. Game balance seems to have become an afterthought post-core. And it is weirdly difficult to figure out how many boons even a straight-up fighty kind of class gets at any given time because you need to look at three different classes and maybe an ancestry plus other situational modifiers. It's got some clever design and mechanical elements I'm genuinely fond of, but after running a campaign in it, I'm not in a big hurry to go back.
|
|
#
?
Aug 22, 2019 18:14
|
|
