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Cleretic posted:It doesn't really matter why he made the illusion unfaithful if you're like me and incapable of seeing it on a personal level rather than the societal. On a societal level, he's put up an unfaithful and incomplete image as what he's fighting for It's not an illusion, nor is it incomplete. It is unfaithful in a single aspect (Hythlodaeus) which Emet did not intend. Your obsession over this character making a mean face and saying mean things to you has completely destroyed your ability to understand the story.
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Aug 24, 2019 05:55
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Hey is volume 2 of Encyclopaedia Eorzea an updated volume 1 and supersedes it? I guess it's sort of a moot point seeing as volume 1 is out of stock anyway but I was wondering if I'm going to miss anything by only having volume 2 (the store page doesn't make it super clear).
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Aug 24, 2019 05:57
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Insert name here posted:Hey is volume 2 of Encyclopaedia Eorzea an updated volume 1 and supersedes it? I guess it's sort of a moot point seeing as volume 1 is out of stock anyway but I was wondering if I'm going to miss anything by only having volume 2 (the store page doesn't make it super clear).
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Aug 24, 2019 06:03
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Insert name here posted:Hey is volume 2 of Encyclopaedia Eorzea an updated volume 1 and supersedes it? I guess it's sort of a moot point seeing as volume 1 is out of stock anyway but I was wondering if I'm going to miss anything by only having volume 2 (the store page doesn't make it super clear). The volumes contain different information, yes.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:03
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somepartsareme posted:I said this earlier and it got disagreed with but I feel like people are going out of their way to make a very uncharitable reading of Amaurot as a sort of Gotcha to avoid the actual moral dilemma and theme presented by the story I'm not saying it's a bad unredeemable place jsut that it even in itself isn't an idyllic world, which fits with the main themes and Emet's characterization. His love for his homeland, mistakes and all, is whole and he believes it to be the better option even if bad things happened there. Cleretic posted:
There's 0 text that supports the idea that his recreation is unfaithful. That's all you projecting. Like it even showcases some of the bad parts of their society (Their lethargy and absent mindedness) so you can even try and say he's trying to show you an idealized version of it to sell it to you ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Aug 24, 2019 |
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Aug 24, 2019 06:04
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jokes posted:Since they never really got into the nitty-gritty, I think that Zodiark as a solution to their creation problems was that he's able to destroy things that are created that go awry. The problem with creation magic is that you can create poo poo that's horrible and dangerous. Like he'd kill Quetzalcoatl if he needed to, and thus Zodiark solves the problem of creation magic. He is able to be the strongest possible thing by sucking up half of all creation energy available, via living sacrifice of at least half of the ancients. The thinking was that we don't need to worry about an apocalypse of creation magic going loving nuts since we can never collectively create anything that's stronger than 50% of all creation magic, it's mathematically impossible. Even if all the ancients, in a panic, made all the scariest things they could possibly come up with, it would only nearly match Zodiark in strength and never exceed it. Yeah, I get the feeling that Zodiark was meant to do a lot of stuff and be a multitool that could be used to undo the apocalypse, fix the environmental damage, etc. Hes massive and powerful and does massive, grand things, but isn't focused. There were 2 gods in the culture of the ancients. Zodiark is the creator; from darkness he remade the world. Hydaelyn is the destroyer, and that is a very, narrow specialization. Hydaelyn, probably both by design and by choice, has a narrow range of stuff she does upon the world, but I bet in direct combat against Zodiark she was hyperspecialized, aided by the faith that placed her as the destroyer, the searing light that in the end split the world and every life upon it.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:06
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:There's 0 text that supports the idea that his recreation is unfaithful. That's all you projecting.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:07
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King Cohort posted:Also, what would Emet-Selch even have to gain from lying to us and presenting a sympathetic version of Amaurot? What reason would he do that for? Surely if he's such a big smug meanie, he would know that we would fight him regardless of what he presents to us in Amaurot, if only because the only alternative for us is death? Indeed, what makes the character so interesting is that he specifically doesn't want to show us a sympathetic treatment of Amaurot. Think about his motivations for a moment: if he's so hellbent on simply resurrecting the old world, then why even bother risking anything by inviting you to Amaurot in the first place? All he'd have to do past that point is sit tight and wait for you to transform. He's not a rash idiot like Lahabrea: he's cold, conniving, and perfectly willing to tease plots out for an agonizingly long time to arrive at a specific goal. Doing it simply to spite you doesn't make any sense. I think that Emet-Selch, through his time spent with your party, realizes that there genuinely is potential in the new world, with you as the shining example. It's something he can never admit, however, because he's in too deep. He's committed the genocide of entire worlds in an attempt to bring back the time he used to know, and to admit that it may have been the wrong thing to do simply isn't something he can do. That's why he goes to all the trouble of drip feeding you information and gradually stringing you along: because he wants to see if you and yours really are both willing and able to succeed the ancients as the keepers of the world. He wants you to understand his civilization, warts and all - everything they sacrificed and endured - and ask, "Are you strong enough to do the same?" It's why he's so quietly resigned once you do defeat him, and why he asks you nothing more than to remember them. He's content that his people have finally been superseded; he's passing the torch on.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:08
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Nessus posted:To, grudgingly, be fair to this: I imagine Cleretic's point is more that even if Emet-Selch produced a perfect replica of what he knew, somehow free of the bias that would come from his memories, it would be intrinsically limited and would provide an incomplete view of Amaurot society. Cleretic seems to be wanting to deal with characters as sort of avatars for cultures rather than individuals, which I can understand more firmly in Stormblood's context, but seems kind of goofy in Shadowbringers. I thin kyou're being way too fair to Cleretic cause that generous read doesn't mesh at all with her points about VAuthry and Eulmore.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:16
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, I get the feeling that Zodiark was meant to do a lot of stuff and be a multitool that could be used to undo the apocalypse, fix the environmental damage, etc. Hes massive and powerful and does massive, grand things, but isn't focused. I'm with you. Hydaelyn was just made to be a complete buzzkill. Hydaelyn, like the WoL, is just a big stop sign to everyone else. The WoL is very good at resolving conflict by slamming their dick onto the table or whatever, but the WoL never really does good in the MSQ, they're just anti-bad.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:16
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Insert name here posted:Hey is volume 2 of Encyclopaedia Eorzea an updated volume 1 and supersedes it? I guess it's sort of a moot point seeing as volume 1 is out of stock anyway but I was wondering if I'm going to miss anything by only having volume 2 (the store page doesn't make it super clear). It's new info. Volume 1 covers a bunch of history, notably the earlier eras, as well looking over the various Jobs and their histories, and the various lands of Eorzea. Covers ARR all the way to the end of the Dragonsong War. Vol 2 looks more at cultures, geography, and religions since Stormblood suddenly introduced a bunch of new things. Covers from Warriors of Darkness all the way to the end of 4.55. Adds entries on RDM and SAM, and looks at the gear for the other jobs since the first volume covered it already. The first volume already covered the nations, so the 2nd volume has stuff on dungeons instead. Both volumes have entries for bestiaries and beast tribes, generally pertaining to that volume's timeframe.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:17
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I have no sympathy or pity for someone who has committed Genocide and neither should you.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:20
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Ordos Valkin posted:I have no sympathy or pity for someone who has committed Genocide and neither should you. Pretty big talk from someone that's killed 10,000 of sentient beings at this point. Lord only knows how many 'beast tribe' members we've murdered.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:22
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Nessus posted:To, grudgingly, be fair to this: I imagine Cleretic's point is more that even if Emet-Selch produced a perfect replica of what he knew, somehow free of the bias that would come from his memories, it would be intrinsically limited and would provide an incomplete view of Amaurot society. Cleretic seems to be wanting to deal with characters as sort of avatars for cultures rather than individuals, which I can understand more firmly in Stormblood's context, but seems kind of goofy in Shadowbringers. You're not far off, but I think we're talking past each other. Or am I just misremembering the one NPC that talks to you about how he remembers 'the truth'--maybe because Emet liked him enough to let him or maybe by accident, he's not sure--and goes on to tell you that Emet completely omitted a whole member of the Council of Fourteen, who would go on to be part of the opposition that made Hydaelyn? Because that seems pretty important since the way I interpret it means 'if he cut out something that enormous, he clearly has no compunctions about accuracy'. Not only can't Emet produce a perfect replica that we can judge fairly, he clearly wouldn't even if he could. And that casts a shadow over the authenticity of everything else Amaurot says, and he says, because it isn't the whole truth.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:26
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Pretty big talk from someone that's killed 10,000 of sentient beings at this point. I used to keep track but I lost count after a couple hundred.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:26
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Ordos Valkin posted:I have no sympathy or pity for someone who has committed Genocide and neither should you. the game doesn't really ask either of these things (except for shittier villains like regula for some reason) but the emotion of empathy may make it easier to understand
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Aug 24, 2019 06:28
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Cleretic posted:You're not far off, but I think we're talking past each other. One of the nameless quest Amaurotines mentions, verbatim "the Council of Fourteen--well, Thirteen now". The only reason this isn't expanded on further by Amaurotines is because the time in the Amaurot that Emet creates is days before Zodiark's summoning, before that missing fourteenth council member has done anything of note (since Hydaelyn didn't exist yet). That, and the fourteenth council member had good reason to keep their activities quiet, else they'd be stopped by the other thirteen.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:30
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jokes posted:I'm with you. Hydaelyn was just made to be a complete buzzkill. Hydaelyn, like the WoL, is just a big stop sign to everyone else. The WoL is very good at resolving conflict by slamming their dick onto the table or whatever, but the WoL never really does good in the MSQ, they're just anti-bad. In the final battle Emet-Selch says "That light split the world, and every life upon it!" in reaction to the Wol getting serious and using their blessing of Hydaelyn. But the way he says is interesting. He has this very... offended tone, like if you used a weapon banned under the geneva conventions or you spit in his face. I wonder if the Heart of Sabik is like a amaurotine WMD, a very controversial one that was used as a example for Hydaelyn's summoners when making her skillset. The searing light of Ultima might be the inspiration for a lot of Hydaelyn's skills and buffs. In the end, the Wol is Hydaelyn's champion, the champion of destruction who breaks the status quo. It is up to those who follow to rebuild in their wake.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:33
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Cleretic posted:You're not far off, but I think we're talking past each other. Yes. ”The truth” meaning that they’re in a dream Amarout, not the real one. That character is the only one who realizes this Amarout is just a replica from Emet-Selch’s memories. A memory isn’t ever going to be 100% truthful or accurate. And multiple other NPCs mention the 14th member, so Emet isn’t trying to hide it from you. wizardofloneliness fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Aug 24, 2019 |
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Aug 24, 2019 06:36
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Oh ok we’re the bad guy I gotcha.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:36
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Ordos Valkin posted:Oh ok we’re the bad guy I gotcha. quantifying this kind of stuff into a good/bad binary isn't really a helpful lens through which to study the story
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Aug 24, 2019 06:38
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Ordos Valkin posted:Oh ok we’re the bad guy I gotcha. How many
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Aug 24, 2019 06:40
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Overwatch Porn posted:quantifying this kind of stuff into a good/bad binary isn't really a helpful lens through which to study the story but smug man bad
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Aug 24, 2019 06:41
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hey if you wanna play an mmo with a real fascist villain with no depth to them, wow just got 8.2
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Aug 24, 2019 06:43
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He is. Are you saying there’s shades of grey to genocide?
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Aug 24, 2019 06:43
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YES bread posted:but smug man bad
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Aug 24, 2019 06:43
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Allarion posted:It's new info. Volume 1 covers a bunch of history, notably the earlier eras, as well looking over the various Jobs and their histories, and the various lands of Eorzea. Covers ARR all the way to the end of the Dragonsong War.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:43
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Ordos Valkin posted:He is. Are you saying there’s shades of grey to genocide? no, but it is possible for someone to have done irredeemably bad things and still have qualities you can be empathetic towards, especially when that someone is a fictional character written by a writer who is trying to convey a theme
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Aug 24, 2019 06:45
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I mean he’s a good character and well written. I’m just saying his actions are evil regardless of his reasons.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:45
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Ordos Valkin posted:I mean he’s a good character and well written. I’m just saying his actions are evil regardless of his reasons. But you, the viewer at home, understand why. compare the usual reaction to the Ascians up until Shadowbringers of "lol they're like Organization XIII or something" and now, well, now you know what they're doing and why. Well. He, as of the end of the MSQ
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Aug 24, 2019 06:48
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Ordos Valkin posted:I mean he’s a good character and well written. I’m just saying his actions are evil regardless of his reasons. it is okay to sympathize with fictional characters who are written sympathetically, despite the nature of their fictional crimes. this will help you enjoy well-written stories in the future
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Aug 24, 2019 06:50
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Nessus posted:Personally, I want every single interaction to give me the option to scorn or murder the individual I'm interacting with, and I want the game world to comprehensively and thoroughly react to and structure itself around exactly who I have deemed to be worthy of life. WITH voice acting, mind you... and I want nuanced portrayals representing the different shades of fear between "executed Urianger" and "executed Tataru" in Alisaie's voice. I've said before I actually do want a '...' option in all dialog choices and think it'd do the game a lot of good, especially in the more emotionally-charged scenes with villains where the game otherwise sort of expects empathy. Because sometimes it doesn't land for whatever reason, and I'd like an option that doesn't force me to pretend it does.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:50
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i havent read a book since i was 13 im not going to analyze a character in any way or think critically about their motivations and empathize with their past, theyre evil
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Aug 24, 2019 06:50
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Ordos Valkin posted:He is. Are you saying there’s shades of grey to genocide? He is bad. He's also a victim of the same kind of poo poo he's doing to people. In that he's one of 2 people in all of creation that even remembers his people exist, a people who were willing to sacrifice themselves to try and save their home and people before anything close to our existence existed. It's almost as if the narrative is trying to play at the tension between to tragedy of the calamities that happened to Amaurot and the personal and willing sacrifices of the citizens of that world with the despicable actions the ascians would go on to take after those sacrifices. Like how they show you how Vauthry was made right before the whole final section of the story. It's like they were trying to set up this dramatic irony and tragedy that the villains may have started out as just like us, desperately trying to do the impossible to save a dying world, to save their loved ones, that maybe even if their actions were monstrous and they were awful people in the end that there was something in common between you and them. And maybe someone should remember the tragedy that befell Amaurot even if the Ascian's follow up plans turned them from tragic figures into monsters. Their goal and motivation was understandable, human even. It was their actions that made them monsters. Maybe they were I dunno, trying to build on the whole spiel Eldi gave us back when we met about how by mastering ourselves and our power we ran the risk of becoming just like them. But no if you even see a little bit of humanity in Emet or emphasize with the Amaurot people (But not the Acians) at all you're wrong and bad. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Aug 24, 2019 |
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Aug 24, 2019 06:53
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YES bread posted:but smug man bad
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Aug 24, 2019 06:54
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Arguments like this are why I miss Fracture.
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Aug 24, 2019 06:59
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Fister Roboto posted:Arguments like this are why I miss Fracture. The AScians killed fracture.
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Aug 24, 2019 07:00
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I’m not criticizing the story or character. They’re good. I guess I shouldn’t have implied your thoughts were wrong. Sorry. I’ll just say I don’t emphasize with him. The story makes me care about all the people we protect.
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Aug 24, 2019 07:00
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Fister Roboto posted:Arguments like this are why I miss Fracture. HYDAELYN FRACTURED THE WORLD YOU FOOL
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Aug 24, 2019 07:01
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:But no if you even see a little bit of humanity in Emet you're wrong in bad. This whole thing started with me talking about how I'm very clearly in the vast minority on this, and I've talked further about how I think my disagreement comes from a personal error that I literally cannot engage with Emet on a personal level and so I default to a larger one, and his views and outlook don't actually scale to that point. I am actually saying that I'm the one that's wrong here, I just can't really figure out the path to being right because I find his character unpleasant and his views impossible to engage with beyond that. Which sucks, because he and his whole thing is clearly going to be a big deal, and I just wish that instead we were going to see more of the villains I do enjoy, which is basically 'every villain the game has, by any definition, that isn't an Ascian and preferably not Yotsuyu either'.
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Aug 24, 2019 07:03
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