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Timeless Appeal posted:It's kinda weird that Worf never becomes a commander on TNG despite being shown to be the only crew member to actually be talented at supervising and mentoring people. Well, he did sass back to Acting Captain Data that one time.
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Aug 24, 2019 19:10
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He also killed the leader of a major allied power, resigned to go fight in their civil war, and (after his Enterprise service) hosed up a vital mission because of his emotional attachment. It's totally understandable why he didn't get promoted. He's not a reliable officer in a general, career sense.
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Aug 24, 2019 19:37
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Also half the main cast would have been commanders or higher if they made Worf (or anyone else) a commander.
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Aug 24, 2019 20:07
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:Also half the main cast would have been commanders or higher if they made Worf (or anyone else) a commander. Hey, it worked for the TOS crew. Nothing but Captains and Commanders by the end.
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Aug 24, 2019 20:13
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Lemniscate Blue posted:He also killed the leader of a major allied power, resigned to go fight in their civil war, and (after his Enterprise service) hosed up a vital mission because of his emotional attachment. It's totally understandable why he didn't get promoted. He's not a reliable officer in a general, career sense. Regarding Gowron, Sisko basically condoned it. Sisko said "Something has to be done." Worf: "Agreed. And I do have a solution, but it will not be easy." "Do whatever it takes, Mr. Worf. ... Gowron is risking the safety of the entire Alpha Quadrant and he has to stop." Sisko knows Klingons well enough to know what he's saying. And Worf's still in a uniform and not in the brig in the next episode.
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Aug 24, 2019 20:32
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Regarding Gowron, Sisko basically condoned it. But still might have made him unpromotable.
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Aug 24, 2019 20:36
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Timeless Appeal posted:Actual navy thing. He's not shown to have that talent on DS9. Everytime he's in a command situation he has to be walked through it by the enlisted O'Brien
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Aug 24, 2019 20:42
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I feel like Voyager should've ended as a whole ship of admirals by the time they reached Earth. Admiral Janeway, Admiral Chakotay, Admiral Seven of Nine, Admiral Naomi Wildman, and Ensign Harry Kim.
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Aug 24, 2019 20:54
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Regarding Gowron, Sisko basically condoned it. Yeah, I mentioned this exchange earlier in this thread. Sisko literally condones the assassination of the Klingon head of state. I still don't like the way Gowron was depicted in seasons 6 / 7 of DS9.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:03
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Timeless Appeal posted:Actual navy thing. Now I'm picturing Data trying to mentor a young officer, giving them advice on how to deal with other crew members, haha.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:03
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Lemniscate Blue posted:He also killed the leader of a major allied power, resigned to go fight in their civil war, and (after his Enterprise service) hosed up a vital mission because of his emotional attachment. It's totally understandable why he didn't get promoted. He's not a reliable officer in a general, career sense. You also forget that the Klingon's nearest thing to God appeared to him after a thousand years of being dead. You would think this would have raised the House of Mogg up a few million levels.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:17
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Isn't Worf one of like two characters to get promoted in Star Trek?
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Aug 24, 2019 21:29
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PerniciousKnid posted:Isn't Worf one of like two characters to get promoted in Star Trek? Troi got promoted when she said she would kill Geordi!
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Aug 24, 2019 21:35
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Jadzia, Sisko, Ezri and Kira all get promoted in DS9 at some point
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Aug 24, 2019 21:37
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Geordi, Nog, Paris.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:41
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Paris got demoted first, didn't he? He basically broke even.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:43
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Barclay went from Junior Lt to Lt too at some point. Or they just didn't bother with the Junior part.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:45
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MorgaineDax posted:Paris got demoted first, didn't he? He basically broke even. He got promoted, fake demoted as a ploy to fool the Kazon and repromoted, actually demoted, and finally repromoted.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:46
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davidspackage posted:I feel like Voyager should've ended as a whole ship of admirals by the time they reached Earth. Admiral Janeway, Admiral Chakotay, Admiral Seven of Nine, Admiral Naomi Wildman, and Ensign Harry Kim. Should've gone the Star Wars EU route of mad Imperial officers making up their own nonsense ranks to one-up each other. Superior Admiral Janeway.
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Aug 24, 2019 21:55
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I guess I blocked out more spinoff series nonsense than I realized.
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Aug 24, 2019 22:00
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Crustashio posted:Jadzia, Sisko, Ezri and Kira all get promoted in DS9 at some point Bashir, too, from J.G. to full Lt. Nog goes from Cadet straight through Ensign to Lt. J.G.
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Aug 24, 2019 22:04
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FuturePastNow posted:Bashir, too, from J.G. to full Lt.
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Aug 24, 2019 22:11
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Regarding Gowron, Sisko basically condoned it. Haha, that's my fuckup, I was misremembering that Duras wasn't actually Chancellor yet when Worf merc'ed him.
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Aug 24, 2019 22:11
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Timby posted:Yeah, I mentioned this exchange earlier in this thread. Sisko literally condones the assassination of the Klingon head of state. I think it works. I kinda imagine charismatic successful generals as usually being a legit threat to power with how the Klingons roll. Martok however was like the one guy who actually wasn't.
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Aug 25, 2019 00:59
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It's cool how Nog went from little twerp messing with O'Brien to outranking him in a few years.
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Aug 25, 2019 00:59
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Watched the DS9 episode where a paranoid O'Brien runs around until the big reveal a few second before the end of the episode. Very hosed up. Very Twillight Zone / Outer Limits. However, the premise starts falling apart when you think about it. Why would they even allow him freedom around the station? Why risk having him around Keiko and the kid? They don't seem to care much when he gets shot, so why not shoot or imprison him right off the bat? Maybe you could justify it by saying it was an attempt at counter-intelligence, or that it was all some Starfleet ethics thing, but they never touch upon that in the episode.
thotsky fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 01:18
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thotsky posted:some Starfleet ethics thing starfleet ethics work on hoverhanding millimetres from your face but technically not touching rules
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Aug 25, 2019 01:44
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PerniciousKnid posted:Isn't Worf one of like two characters to get promoted in Star Trek? 
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Aug 25, 2019 02:01
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thotsky posted:Watched the DS9 episode where a paranoid O'Brien runs around until the big reveal a few second before the end of the episode. Very hosed up. Very Twillight Zone / Outer Limits. However, the premise starts falling apart when you think about it. Why would they even allow him freedom around the station? Why risk having him around Keiko and the kid? They don't seem to care much when he gets shot, so why not shoot or imprison him right off the bat? Maybe you could justify it by saying it was an attempt at counter-intelligence, or that it was all some Starfleet ethics thing, but they never touch upon that in the episode.
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Aug 25, 2019 02:01
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Episodes like that are written with the idea of how cool it would be to have actors act all of a sudden wildly out of character rather than from practical connotations. Otherwise, there would be a lot more episodes ending with an existential crisis before the inevitable demise of the single episode persona. It seemed for a while to be "Oh, this is the episode where O'Brien kills everybody", which really keeps the tension high.
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Aug 25, 2019 02:19
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FlamingLiberal posted:Yeah the fact that he was allowed to just do normal stuff makes absolutely no sense since they knew from the beginning that he was a possible security threat I haven't seen the episode in a while, but I seem to remember that they didn't know what kind of secondary programming or capabilities the duplicate had or what would trigger them, and if he suspected they knew anything he'd go straight-up murderbot in ways they couldn't predict or prevent.
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Aug 25, 2019 02:50
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Lemniscate Blue posted:I haven't seen the episode in a while, but I seem to remember that they didn't know what kind of secondary programming or capabilities the duplicate had or what would trigger them, and if he suspected they knew anything he'd go straight-up murderbot in ways they couldn't predict or prevent. This is correct. Basically, their federation principles kept them from just murdering him immediately, but if he got prevented from being able to be O'Brien normally, it was suspected he might go full murder/suicide machine immediately, so they were playing it cool and pretending (badly) not to know anything was up. They were about 1/4 successful at this, so he didn't flip out entirely and just John McClained the whole station with intent to escape, instead, returning to the planet O'Brien had been captured at, even as he (the replicant) thought he was going there to foil the plot of the very people who created him and be the hero O'Brien would be. Also, they were, in a more self-interested manner, hoping to observe him and find out what his creators were planning, so that they could foil it and stop them in a somewhat more comprehensive manner than just destroying one of their puppets and leaving them free to try something else. Starfleet wouldn't just murder (which includes triggering his failsafe programming) a thus-far innocent being just because it had evil creators that tried to use them for evil purposes (and even "evil" is kind of a stretch, given it was a civil war situation on that planet, more 'the not ruling party' aligned with the Federation for now). The fact that you think this is a huge plot hole is our unenlightened barbaric thinking at work, sadly. I mean, maybe they could get him in a stasis field before something irreversible happened? Maybe. Maybe not.
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Aug 25, 2019 03:52
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Starfleet wouldn't just murder a thus-far innocent being just because it had evil creators that tried to use them for evil purposes. The fact that you think this is a huge plot hole is our unenlightened barbaric thinking at work, sadly. Come on we were talking about Tuvix just last page.
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Aug 25, 2019 03:56
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Pinterest Mom posted:Come on we were talking about Tuvix just last page. The Diktator Janeway should not be used as the standard for Starfleet morality.
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Aug 25, 2019 03:58
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I mean, a Starfleet captain torturing a prisoner for information, or any other reason? I'm struggling here, but I'm pretty sure even Sisko, at the height of his 'use biological weapons on a terrorist-sympathizing population to force their terrorist allies to surrender' "questionable" mania, never engaged in "enhanced interrogation" of a prisoner, let alone one that was a starfleet officer (whom he had a history of getting the most het up about, see above). We all kind of brush over it, because there are so many other examples, but Janeway pretty much using the space equivalent of torture via potentially fatal guard dog mauling on a prisoner, who only survived because Chakotay disobeyed her orders to dive into the room and save the guy, which she was really disappointed about (then made him part of her crew) is...hmm. Maybe Ron Moore had something to learn from Voyager beyond what he didn't get to do for BSG, after all. edit (actually, now that I think about it, with all its post-9/11 insanity, did Archer torture any prisoners in Enterprise? It's the one (actually, two, now, thanks Discovery, which I am also not counting here for the purpose of this post, obviously) series I've never rewatched after its initial airdates).
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Aug 25, 2019 08:57
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Yeah I thought it was kind of odd that Sisko's attempt to genocide that planet was kind of just swept over. I'm sure he and Dax even joke about it at the end.
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Aug 25, 2019 10:45
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CptAwesome posted:Yeah I thought it was kind of odd that Sisko's attempt to genocide that planet was kind of just swept over. I'm sure he and Dax even joke about it at the end. In For the Uniform, I imagine the writers did not consider it to be genocide because in the end the Maquis colonists did not die, and that the Maquis began the biological attacks in the first place. I want to be clear, this isn't a defense of the Sisko's actions here, which were hosed up.
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Aug 25, 2019 11:44
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Yeah, the episode specifically mentions that the colonists are evacuating once he fires the torpedoes, so it’s reasonable to assume no one actually died. Still pretty hosed up and should have warranted at least an awkward conversation with Starfleet brass at the end of the episode.
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Aug 25, 2019 11:52
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Nessus posted:Is this about "For the Uniform" or one of the other times Sisko did hella crimes? I'd still classify that as attempted genocide, I think? He followed a course of action that would have resulted in the deaths of millions had they not taken action.
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Aug 25, 2019 11:54
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CptAwesome posted:I'd still classify that as attempted genocide, I think? He followed a course of action that would have resulted in the deaths of millions had they not taken action. Now his overall plan to hit every Maquis colony would have definitely been genocidal. e: This is one of those things where the sci-fi part of the crime complicates things, because there's no real parallel to the A/B nature of the poison crap they were throwing around. I imagine this probably indirectly saved Sisko's career, because dogging him down for that would have involved Starfleet saying "yeah, we were tacitly OK with denying this area to Cardassian colonists, or at least not particularly mad about it," which would not have been politically tenable. The Bajorans also probably helped, since even if the Feds could order all the fleet guys to silence, there were several Bajoran officers aboard, as well as a Ferengi idealist. Nessus fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Aug 25, 2019 12:07
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