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Virtually the only aspect Re: Ouroboros in the Sky games that feels explicitly left hanging is Star Door 14 in the 3rd. Otherwise their narrative purposes in FC and SC is more than covered, developed, and subsequently concluded.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:54
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I actually agree that world building in general is a waste compared to actually developing your themes and is a crutch fantasy stories like to lean on rather then having any coherent themes that are worth a drat. Trails struggles with this quite a bit but I don’t think it’s as bad as it’s being made out to be. Also Ouroboros owns and have the best fights and songs.
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Aug 26, 2019 23:59
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It’s ultimately a matter of taste. There isn’t like anything inherently better about themes
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Aug 27, 2019 00:03
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if Ouroboros gets up its own rear end then the name just becomes more appropriate
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Aug 27, 2019 00:05
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When it comes to world building and how to do it wrong my go to is always going to be FF13.....er, FF13-1. There's a goddamn bible attached to the gameplay of the game if you'd like to read it. The game doesn't need to show me all of the contents of what's in this background info, but it sometimes would be a better idea to show a little more than you tell. Falcom will never get that bad, I think, even if Cold Steel 3 doesn't improve from 2's issues.
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Aug 27, 2019 00:05
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RevolverDivider posted:Also Ouroboros owns and have the best fights and songs.
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Aug 27, 2019 00:05
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Shinjobi posted:When it comes to world building and how to do it wrong my go to is always going to be FF13.....er, FF13-1. There's a goddamn bible attached to the gameplay of the game if you'd like to read it. the codex also explains next to nothing of the world or how it functions, so it's a failure twice over my favorite lore will always be The Buzzing from the Secret World but even that's more for its presentation than anything
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Aug 27, 2019 00:07
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this version doesn't have the sick guitar for some reason https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNBt6z0q0g
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Aug 27, 2019 00:09
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I find it hard to argue that Sky, at its core, doesn't have major redemption and dealing with the effects of the past themes going on.
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Aug 27, 2019 00:11
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CharlestheHammer posted:It's ultimately a matter of taste. There isn't like anything inherently better about themes yeah, it's really easy to forget this. a lot of people ultimately don't really give a poo poo about any given works themes, and the consistency and clarity with which they are delivered. my dumb english major rear end loves that stuff, but many just want to chill out and have fun with a cool story and world and game. this is why i think that having arguments about a works quality are ultimately pointless. i'm never going to be able to make someone stop liking something they enjoyed, and really don't want to. same with making someone like something they didn't.
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Aug 27, 2019 00:17
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Charlie Bobson posted:yeah, it's really easy to forget this. a lot of people ultimately don't really give a poo poo about any given works themes, and the consistency and clarity with which they are delivered. my dumb english major rear end loves that stuff, but many just want to chill out and have fun with a cool story and world and game. this is why i think that having arguments about a works quality are ultimately pointless. i'm never going to be able to make someone stop liking something they enjoyed, and really don't want to. same with making someone like something they didn't. This is where I tell you I don't like Shakespeare. (Most likely because he's writing in a semi-foreign language I can only partly understand, which makes a huge difference on how text actually reads...)
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Aug 27, 2019 00:20
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OddObserver posted:This is where I tell you I don't like Shakespeare. thank u for coming up with such a perfect example because my dumb rear end sure couldn't
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Aug 27, 2019 00:26
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Trails having a greater level of "worldbuilding" relative to other JRPGs mostly comes across to me as just having greater breadth of dialogue and mining both individual stories and the overall setting over multiple games. The closest it comes to raw codex-esque stuff are the various books, but those are all optional and mostly long-run foreshadowing for other games anyway.
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Aug 27, 2019 00:29
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Yeah as far as I know the trails games don’t really go with any details of the past or the world itself just the people in it. But like not even on a cultural level on a mostly individual one. That’s kind of the problem with worldbuilding in that it’s kind of a broad term. Like this isn’t worldbuilding like say Lord of the Rings
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Aug 27, 2019 00:32
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i can get not liking ouroboros but the worldbuilding in sky is super tied to its themes, its about the next generation moving on from past conflicts and the entire worldbuilding is about establishing all these past conflicts and old grudges. its fine if that mode of storytelling doesnt work for you, there's a lot of it, but there's a difference between not liking it and it not existing
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Aug 27, 2019 00:40
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that said i personally love ouroboros. idk i can get them not being your jam or maybe being sold on the idea of trails being a like, down to earth/realistic jrpg series, but even sky 1 has agate and lawrench's five minutes sword duel where they steal a bunch of berserk panels in like, chapter 2, and leonhardt standing around going 'this play... is just like Back Then... i see.......'
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Aug 27, 2019 00:41
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I'm about 60-70% certain that Ouroborous' main goal is reascending humans to their position before the great collapse. And i'm about 90% certain that the only people who understand that are the Grandmaster and maybe Campanella. If there's an overarching theme to the series, as near as I can tell, it's a very simple "No man is an island", where the main thing is whether or not you can open up to other people and trust them. People that don't trust = bad, will eventually lose, people that do trust = good and are probably the protagonists, people that learn how to trust are saved/redeemed. People that lose their ability to trust eventually burn out and die. (Most of the members of the ILF) People with a warped sense of trust, e.g. in one person or institution, must evolve (Machias) or suffer (the Ironbloods---sadly, I can't see things ending well for any of them) Both translated arcs so far have had themes against fascism, with the concept being that the person trying to coup the government doesn't have the capacity to trust the leadership of anyone else. They are corrupted by their inability to be out of control. People that have had their trust absolutely abused are candidates for Enforcers. This is why Duvalie is not one despite her power. She trusts something. It's a warped and unhealthy trust, but it exists. This is a character that fascinates me. By the end of the Cold Steel arc, I fully expect Duvalie to either become an Enforcer or a playable character. Depending on if her trust gets destroyed, or if she decides to place it in people and not merely person.
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Aug 27, 2019 04:03
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Veryslightlymad posted:
Yeah, that fits; and I think also why there are so many adopted kids in the series. (And Rean is having tons of difficulty because he can't fully embrace his adoptive family... because of distrust of himself). Also Renne is able to embrace being family to Joshua and Estelle after she learns her parents weren't really responsible for the hell she went through.
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Aug 27, 2019 04:37
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I will say part of the issue for Ouroboros, when I get to thinking about it, is Cold Steel. Maybe it's been a while, but by the time I finished SC, the members that got away I figured would appear later in some other installment and I'd take care of them there. Except, Ouroboros in Cold Steel is like any other major antagonist in Cold Steel; just fuckin around with you for a boss fight. They are not unique in this regard, so I don't wanna single the organization out, but they are more prominent in Cold Steel and they have more of the lion's share of no-consequence boss battles in the two games. I'm just spoiling that chunk just in case we still have someone who's playing through the games.
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Aug 27, 2019 05:09
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I just finished Ys 7. It's maybe because it's the 4th Ys game I've played back-to-back, but it started as my least favorite and ended as my least favorite entry. Then they had to go and force you to use your entire party for the final fight... oof. That's just the worst. I was also looking forward to something of a puzzle boss like in some of the other games, but maybe that's harder for them do do now that set magic abilities aren't part of the game. I'm looking forward to 8, but I need a big break. I really like the top-down, 3d background / 2d character games; I wish there were more than than just the 3.
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Aug 27, 2019 06:02
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Captain Lavender posted:I just finished Ys 7. It's maybe because it's the 4th Ys game I've played back-to-back, but it started as my least favorite and ended as my least favorite entry. Then they had to go and force you to use your entire party for the final fight... oof. That's just the worst. I was also looking forward to something of a puzzle boss like in some of the other games, but maybe that's harder for them do do now that set magic abilities aren't part of the game. The part that got your goat is something I most love in games, both in Trails the 3rd and in Ys Seven.
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Aug 27, 2019 07:16
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I was just ready to be done, and had neglected most of my guys. I think my real gripe is just that I had to do 2 phases without Adol.
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Aug 27, 2019 08:01
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Aug 27, 2019 08:18
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Veryslightlymad posted:I'm about 60-70% certain that Ouroborous' main goal is reascending humans to their position before the great collapse. And i'm about 90% certain that the only people who understand that are the Grandmaster and maybe Campanella. Yeah, this is as good a motivation as any and it would make sense. It also would go in line with the point you make later about the inability to be completely in control. She's the same as Richard (sky FC), Weissmann and Osbourne in this regard. quote:People with a warped sense of trust, e.g. in one person or institution, must evolve (Machias) or suffer (the Ironbloods---sadly, I can't see things ending well for any of them) A couple of the Ironbloods I hate almost as much as I hated Weissmann (  rear end in a top hat ) and I'll cheer when we finally put them down as the rabid dogs they are, looking at you Lechter and (CS2 spoilers) super secret Ironblood revealed at the end of Cold Steel 2. Machias' dad and Claire I'd be satisfied with a long prison sentence.I only hope the gang manages to rescue/turn Millum beforehand, on the Joshua/Renne "they're a loving child soldier" precedent. Er, how old are Millum and Altina again? Actual age matching apparent I hope.
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Aug 27, 2019 13:20
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Omobono posted:A couple of the Ironbloods I hate almost as much as I hated Weissmann (  Err, do those last two start eating live puppies and babies in CS 3/4 and I just don't know about it yet? Because otherwise, holy poo poo that seems ridiculously excessive, considering that (Sky FC/SC/3rd) an actual perpetrator of a coup (and his second in command) gets off with a dismissal from the army and walking around free.And in CS 2, Duke Albarea, who attempted to hold Machias as a political hostage in CS 1, who attacked the territory of a fellow Noble including the attempted murder of its lord, and the attacking of one of his own towns in retaliation for disloyalty (which resulted in a fatality) gets off with house arrest (in his gigantic manor) and removal as head of the household. Not to mention that the PROTAGONISTS of the CS 1 and 2, the so-called "good guys", Class VII, do not apparently give even the slightest poo poo that (late CS 1/CS2) their friend committed several acts of robbery and terrorism, multiple counts of murder, attempted murder, hostage taking, and they keep talking about bringing him back to be their friend again like none of that happened. Did I miss any actual CRIMES or heinous acts Machias' dad and Claire committed, because I'm not familiar with any, and so far in the series, actual crimes and terrible acts aren't punished nearly as harshly as that. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 14:11
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Claire committed the grave sin of (CS2 big spoiler) not mentioning to Rean that she thought Osbourne might be his dad. Unforgivable.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:20
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*spits in disgust*
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Aug 27, 2019 14:34
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They do serve a guy who is anime Otto Von Bidmark but comically evil
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Aug 27, 2019 14:44
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Not to mention that the PROTAGONISTS of the CS 1 and 2, the so-called "good guys", Class VII, do not apparently give even the slightest poo poo that (late CS 1/CS2) their friend committed several acts of robbery and terrorism, multiple counts of murder, attempted murder, hostage taking, and they keep talking about bringing him back to be their friend again like none of that happened. This was the precise moment when I thought 'they went with THIS?' and never really picked up CS2. I must admit I didn't like any of the characters in particular before that but their main motivation for CS2 was just so stupid.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:51
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That whole bit fell pretty flat for me too, because (CS1/2)I never really liked Crow to begin with, so Rean's speeches about how they were best buds really didn't land. I still committed to CS2, because I needed to know how the cliffhanger got resolved and I want to know how the whole arc ends.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:54
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CharlestheHammer posted:They do serve a guy who is anime Otto Von Bidmark but comically evil We and Olivert know how that largely because of a meeting held in a room in Liberl. I doubt he put the transcript of that meeting in the Imperial Chronicle. The (CS2 spoilers super secret Ironblood knows much of the plan. But how much did Carl Regnitz and Cap. Claire SPECIFICALLY know about his scheming? It doesn't seem like that much since they were completely out of the loop in CS 2. Some Numbers posted:That whole bit fell pretty flat for me too, because (CS1/2)I never really liked Crow to begin with, so Rean's speeches about how they were best buds really didn't land. I'm not quite so committed to seeing the end of the arc, because that, along with some other things gives me some serious misgivings about where the story is going. I also may have seen a major spoiler for CS 3/4 which suggests one of my worse fears about where the story goes. I won't put that one out in this thread even behind spoiler tags. Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 14:55
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Their main motivation for CS2 is "oh god there's a civil war all around us and it'd be cool if we and all our loved ones didn't die." The stuff with that guy is just a very personal addendum to all of that.
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Aug 27, 2019 14:55
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It's a lot easier to sympathize with Claire and Carl serving the government and Osbourne when you find out how awful the Erebonian nobility is. That being said, Osbourne being in control is also a terrible option, but as Stabbey said, Carl and Claire probably didn't know that Osbourne was working with Ouroboros and playing 10th dimensional chess against literally the entire continent. On a different note, I honestly don't know which is the lesser evil between Ouroboros and Osbourne. They're both pretty vile. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:I'm not quite so committed to seeing the end of the arc, because that, along with some other things gives me some serious misgivings about where the story is going. I also may have seen a major spoiler for CS 3/4 which suggests one of my worse fears about where the story goes. I won't put that one out in this thread even behind spoiler tags.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:01
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Nate RFB posted:Their main motivation for CS2 is "oh god there's a civil war all around us and it'd be cool if we and all our loved ones didn't die." It happened too suddenly and the bit was so short it fell completely flat for me. Also the game seemed to be more focused on giant robots and you get to drive one! than the war itself. Might also be my dislike for the cast, I just don't care what will happen to them. I played a bit of Zero with that broken translation and really liked it, tho. Will finish it after the new translation is published.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:01
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CharlestheHammer posted:They do serve a guy who is anime Otto Von Bidmark but comically evil Like the only people in-setting who dislike Carl Regnitz seem to be the ones opposed to the idea of a commoner governor. Like half the terrorists seem to be "oh that guy? Seems OK, dunno why he works for Osborne. Love the street cars!". I do wonder how much he actually knows of Osborne's real plans.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:02
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Some Numbers posted:That's...worrying. I'm still going to eventually play CS3 and 4 (if it also gets released), but that really puts a damper on my enthusiasm. I don't know the context. It is possible that it could be referring to a non-canon bonus thing. But given some things suggested from around the end of CS 2, it's possibly a main story thing in CS 3/4.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:11
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Terminally Bored posted:It happened too suddenly and the bit was so short it fell completely flat for me. Also the game seemed to be more focused on giant robots and you get to drive one! than the war itself. Might also be my dislike for the cast, I just don't care what will happen to them.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:48
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I mean I played both and that is basically correct
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Aug 27, 2019 15:54
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Did I miss any actual CRIMES or heinous acts Machias' dad and Claire committed. My reasoning, though, is that they're Ironbloods. When your boss is Osbourne and you're a trusted second in command you're absolutely guilty by association. I understand why Carl Regnitz is loyal to Osbourne (and I hope 3 or 4 will get into Claire's motivations) and I think those two would actually rebel if the Chancellor tried to make them truly evil acts. At the same time though, they're close enough to Osbourne that they absolutely should realize what he's up to. They may be ignorant, but it's willful ignorance, because Osbourne is promising them (and to be fair actually delivering on) what they want and so they decide to not look at their boss too hard. When your boss is a puppy-eating bastard, the "he never ate a puppy in front of me" defense rings a bit hollow to me. So basically, this is a good summation on why I want those two to face consequences for their actions: CharlestheHammer posted:They do serve a guy who is anime Otto Von Bidmark but comically evil Stabbey_the_Clown posted:And in CS 2, Duke Albarea This is a massive miscarriage of justice and the clear example of the bullshit nobles can get away with in Erebonia. The Reformists are not wrong in saying that power needs to be curbed, even as Osbourne is channeling that rightful demand for more equality to further is own agenda. quote:Not to mention that the PROTAGONISTS of the CS 1 and 2, the so-called "good guys", Class VII, do not apparently give even the slightest poo poo that (late CS 1/CS2) I do find fault in the completely naive sunshine and rainbows approach, because I feel the series usually manages to make its idealism feel realistic. quote:and so far in the series, actual crimes and terrible acts aren't punished nearly as harshly as that. Richard got a long prison sentence. He also got a pardon, but that happened after he clearly demonstrated he had turned a new leaf through acts and actions. I'd be satisfied if those two got the Richard treatment to be honest.
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Aug 27, 2019 15:58
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Osborne is Regnitz's boss because he's the literal chancellor. Carl cannot do his job without dealing with Osborne. I think the amount of say Carl has outside the capital approaches nil.
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Aug 27, 2019 16:06
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