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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:Rey's temperament makes sense for someone who grew up an orphan fending for herself in a barren hostile hell hole with no resources. She shouldn't be well adjusted. She's not a white girl from suburbia. I don't disagree with this and this reading makes sense, but Rey is pretty normal when you put aside her temperament issues. She is somehow a fan of the rebellion, knows things about the galactic history (who Han Solo and Luke are, heard about the Kessel run) and knows about the resistance. So she kinda is a white girl from suburbia who has action figures in her room and dreams about becoming a pilot. The characterization is muddled. It's even worse with Finn, because the movie first wants him to be a former soldier with PTSD who participated in atrocities, but also wants him to be a goofy guy, so it backtracks midway through and makes him a space janitor who never did anything wrong. He still somehow knows everything about First Order's facilities, spaceships and military equipment though.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:31
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Hazo posted:A Mary Sue in fiction is a character that serves as a conceited self-insert for the author. Like Corran Horn in the EU novels or Bella in Twilight. Rey may not be a well developed character but she is in no way a Mary Sue even though people keep calling her one. I'm aware - my apologies if my sarcasm wasn't detectable in textual form I look forward to the resurgence of that subset of the Star Wars fandom, because they're great if you're ever feeling down
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Aug 27, 2019 20:39
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Captain Jesus posted:I don't disagree with this and this reading makes sense, but Rey is pretty normal when you put aside her temperament issues. She is somehow a fan of the rebellion, knows things about the galactic history (who Han Solo and Luke are, heard about the Kessel run) and knows about the resistance. So she kinda is a white girl from suburbia who has action figures in her room and dreams about becoming a pilot. The characterization is muddled. I don't have a problem with her knowing some of these things. Even in the middle ages peasants knew stories and legends of knights and battles, and Rey is essentially a space peasant. What doesn't particularly make sense for her is her selflessness and her desire to join the rebellion. Someone like her should be primarily concerned with looking out for number one. Finn, yeah, he's just a hot mess of contradictions and walk backs.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:43
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I agree on Finn - in more ways than Rey them not really doing much with him in the ST is a problem. His character literally forgets everything he learned in the first few minutes of TLJ and tries running again. Then, he spends the whole movie following other people, being lectured at by Rose or DJ. He doesn’t move any of the plot on his own, rather the more two dimensional Poe does, who they try to cram some ill-fitting growth into. (It doesn’t really work, you *want* Poe to be the impulsive, rash rogue, that’s what anyone likes about him). Finn basically takes a movie off despite being awake the entire time.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:50
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Vinylshadow posted:I'm aware - my apologies if my sarcasm wasn't detectable in textual form
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Aug 27, 2019 20:51
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So, where exactly is the New Republic in this fight with the First Order? I'm really confused as to where their fleet is and why the First Order just seems to be rolling over an extant galactic wide government. The "resistance" was just supposed to be a proxy war between the First Order and the New Republic?
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Aug 27, 2019 21:01
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Nitrousoxide posted:So, where exactly is the New Republic in this fight with the First Order? I'm really confused as to where their fleet is and why the First Order just seems to be rolling over an extant galactic wide government. The "resistance" was just supposed to be a proxy war between the First Order and the New Republic? Their fleet got destroyed in TFA
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Aug 27, 2019 21:03
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kidkissinger posted:Their fleet got destroyed in TFA JJ’s incisive commentary on the USA’s overreliance on carriers for force projection.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:04
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The new republic was conquered and ceased to exist between TFA and TLJ. I'm aware of how stupid that sounds but this is literally the first thing the opening crawl asserts
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Aug 27, 2019 21:05
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Nitrousoxide posted:So, where exactly is the New Republic in this fight with the First Order? I'm really confused as to where their fleet is and why the First Order just seems to be rolling over an extant galactic wide government. The "resistance" was just supposed to be a proxy war between the First Order and the New Republic? It's so dumb that we have to ask these kind of questions. They tried so hard to avoid the boring political talk of the prequels that they leaned waaaay too hard in the other direction.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:06
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kidkissinger posted:Their fleet got destroyed in TFA Didn't the new Republic have like 5 main battle fleets each assigned to a sector of the galaxy and then one roaming fleet to handle hot spots? Or am I thinking of legends New Republic. Like surely the entire new republic fleet wasn't docked at the three worlds that got blasted.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:11
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Nitrousoxide posted:Didn't the new Republic have like 5 main battle fleets each assigned to a sector of the galaxy and then one roaming fleet to handle hot spots? Or am I thinking of legends New Republic. Like surely the entire new republic fleet wasn't docked at the three worlds that got blasted. I think that they were all docked at Coruscant tbh
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Aug 27, 2019 21:12
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There was a big scene in TFA were the republic was blown up.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:15
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I swear they show like 5 ships getting blown up by Starkiller Base in TFA and we are supposed to believe that is the whole fleet I guess?
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Aug 27, 2019 21:15
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The majority of the fleet was docked around the Hosnian system planets, which Starkiller destroyed.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:16
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Yes. The movie is speaking to you using visual language. Someone also says it. So that is hearing language too. If you can’t see and hear maybe you missed it.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:16
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kidkissinger posted:I think that they were all docked at Coruscant tbh I don't think that planet was destroyed
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Aug 27, 2019 21:17
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"The Republic" is short for "The Republic of Five Planets", and the First Order blew up all five of them.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:18
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They need to hurry up and decanonize the prequels so that the scale of the "galaxy" implicit in the sequels can be even remotely sensical
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Aug 27, 2019 21:19
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pospysyl posted:"The Republic" is short for "The Republic of Five Planets", and the First Order blew up all five of them. No. It's a galactic republic. e: you were probably being sarcastic, nvm
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Aug 27, 2019 21:19
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euphronius posted:Yes. The movie is speaking to you using visual language. Yeah but what if the visual is stupid
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Aug 27, 2019 21:21
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The movies are pretty stupid yeah.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:22
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Jiminy Christmas! Shoes! posted:I don't have a problem with her knowing some of these things. Even in the middle ages peasants knew stories and legends of knights and battles, and Rey is essentially a space peasant. What doesn't particularly make sense for her is her selflessness and her desire to join the rebellion. Someone like her should be primarily concerned with looking out for number one. She's driven to join the
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Aug 27, 2019 21:26
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No Mods No Masters posted:The new republic was conquered and ceased to exist between TFA and TLJ. I'm aware of how stupid that sounds but this is literally the first thing the opening crawl asserts I took ""The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy." To mean that the first order was now pushing out after their sneak attack on the new republic. Like there were literally days (hours?) between the end of between the end of TFA and TLJ since Finn just woke up from his treatment and Ray's meeting picks up from the scene we left off at.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:32
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Presumably "reigns" should be taken to mean "reigns". I agree with you it's very very stupid
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Aug 27, 2019 21:35
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It’s a dumb space opera serial like Flash Gordon or whatever. This stuff didn’t actually happen and it’s not like thought through as a simulation. There is enough background story to inform the story in the screen which centers on the characters
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Aug 27, 2019 21:36
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Mike N Eich posted:His character literally forgets everything he learned in the first few minutes of TLJ and tries running again. I don't think Finn's plot in TLJ is very good, but I think this particular criticism (which I've seen a lot) is off base. Finn isn't trying to run away at the beginning out of self-preservation; he's trying to run away so that he can warn Rey that the fleet is under attack so she doesn't walk into a hornets' nest when she comes back from her mission. While it's not especially interesting, Finn has a complete arc- he finds his own ideology and reasons for being a part of the resistance, rather than it just being there for Rey.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:36
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euphronius posted:It’s a dumb space opera serial like Flash Gordon or whatever. This stuff didn’t actually happen and it’s not like thought through as a simulation. There is enough background story to inform the story in the screen which centers on the characters There was some semblance of logic to the conflict in the OT and the PT. You had enough that you could fill in the gaps. The gaps can't be filled in for the ST; it's nonsensical. Everything we're told and shown about the First Order makes them seem like a) a pretty marginal faction within the galaxy as a whole and b)incompetent buffoons (Hux, Kylo, Snoke, Phasma, all of them), and yet we're to believe that they conquer the galaxy basically overnight.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:43
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While the First Order was working on the Starkiller base the New Republic was hard at work on their greatest tool: the galaxy's largest white flag
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Aug 27, 2019 21:44
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No Mods No Masters posted:Presumably "reigns" should be taken to mean "reigns". I agree with you it's very very stupid Moreover, I feel like this is the only interpretation actually consistent with the later events of TLJ. Presumably if the new republic still existed in any way shape or form, leia would at least try to contact them instead of just her vague outer rim "allies"
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Aug 27, 2019 21:50
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They honestly could have framed this entire thing as a local conflict that the Republic just refused to get involved with, and nothing would have changed. If the personal stakes are truly enough to carry the movies, then why bother even bother with contriving a reason that any of this imperils the entire galaxy?
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Aug 27, 2019 21:55
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Nitrousoxide posted:I took ""The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy." To mean that the first order was now pushing out after their sneak attack on the new republic. So within hours the Order has already won?
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Aug 27, 2019 21:57
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General Dog posted:They honestly could have framed this entire thing as a local conflict that the Republic just refused to get involved with, and nothing would have changed. If the personal stakes are truly enough to carry the movies, then why bother even bother with contriving a reason that any of this imperils the entire galaxy? Eh, we don't want to see the main Star Wars downgrade their stakes.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:58
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CharlestonJew posted:While the First Order was working on the Starkiller base the New Republic was hard at work on their greatest tool: the galaxy's largest white flag With the amount of enthusiasm the old senate greeting the creation of the empire I assume most of the galaxy are big fans of fascism.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:58
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FlamingLiberal posted:It’s hours, because we see the New Order fleet destroying the Resistance base where they launched the attack on Starkiller I guess the "decimation" of the Republic refers to the Starkiller attack, and when it says that Snoke has deployed his legions to seize control of the galaxy, it means that they literally just left.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:59
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General Dog posted:They honestly could have framed this entire thing as a local conflict that the Republic just refused to get involved with, and nothing would have changed. If the personal stakes are truly enough to carry the movies, then why bother even bother with contriving a reason that any of this imperils the entire galaxy? This is something I agree with and, IIRC there's some deleted Leia dialogue in Force Awakens that is basically to that effect. That the First Order is building up to be a threat, but they go from that to being a massive force insanely fast. I feel like one of the first two ST movies needed at time jump of a couple of years or something if they really wanted that to work. Also have to agree that pulpy serial or not, there's enough tissue to how the world works in the OT and PT that yeah, obviously it's not a simulation or an account of real events or whatever, but they don't quite as "off" about this like the two ST movies so far do to me.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:01
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*Dangling and jiggling a palpatine toy in front of you, as a distraction of an infant* hey, forget about all that stuff please
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Aug 27, 2019 22:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=do1Fw2rLPcY
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Aug 27, 2019 22:20
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it’s a real problem when your serious villains are all such bumbling comic relief that it’s impossible to understand how they’ve seized control also hard to understand what exactly our heroes are fighting for when the movie flat out tells us nobody but the people in the room we’re seeing care about this like remove everything else and look at it in a vacuum, even episode 1 at least gave us enough of a coherent explanation of why the trade federation is bad. they immediately try to kill the Jedi diplomats after luring them in on pretense of negotiation, they’re blockading a world we know is chill and peaceful cause we spend a lot of time on it, the world has no real army or defenses to repel the droid occupiers so they’re a legit threat. and we understand why the Republic hasn’t acted because of bureaucratic gridlock and red tape. all the players and the scope of the conflict are clearly defined. in the ST we’re two movies in and nobody even has a clear understanding of whether there’s a Republic or not or who’s in charge or what anyone even wants seems like they should’ve written some sort of outline
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Aug 27, 2019 22:22
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I feel like I've said it multiple times before, but it's not like the writers of The Force Awakens had jam their story into some existing chronology. They had carte blanche to come up with whatever political reality they wanted, and had a 35 year runway from the events of Return of the Jedi to get there, and for some reason this is what they decided on- a stable Republic, an ostensibly small, incompetent group of right-wing terrorists, and a Death Star x1000 that would have taken presumably all the money in the known universe to build that serves as a magic reset switch for everything.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:29
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