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MiddleOne posted:Funny story, Germany actually can't. The German auto industry is the best in the world at building not only fossil fuel cars, but the technological systems particular to fossil fuel cars. In moving to EV, Germany would lose a lot of the competitive advantages that has made its auto industry as dominant as it is. It would have to start from scratch with other auto economies already far into the game. Randler posted:And EU state aid rules make it extremely difficult to only help the domestic manufacturing industry instead of all their competition from abroad. Which is part of the reason why the latest incentives for electronic vehicles as well as the new depreciation scheme for newly constructed housing were deliberately limited in scope as to not require EU approval. The idea that German automakers can't, and won't, make electric vehicles is nonsense. All of the major German brands have got electric vehicles either on the market already, or soon to be. It wouldn't need to only be specifically focused on the domestic manufacturing industry (ie against EU state aid rules), just give the grant for all EV vehicles. Sure, some of the money would go to foreign brands, but a large chunk of the money would go to German brands too. BMW/Audi/VW/Mercedes/Opel/Porsche combined had approx 48% of the vehicle sales in Germany in Q1 of this year. And the pollution benefits accrue locally (and globally) regardless of which brand is on the electric vehicle that sells. So the green selling point remains important. My broader point wasn't that an EV incentive scrappage scheme is some panacea, though. It was just the first example that came to mind as a way of spending money that would have a variety of positive economic and environmental benefits. I'm sure leading politicians and civil servants could come up with more, if they actually wanted to.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:02
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Blut posted:
Full employment is generally considered to be between 4-6% unemployment. And the places that do have large unemployment are not the same places that need construction workers. I don't know what else to tell you except that billions of EUR in federal grands(for broadbands expansion, school renovations, road construction, etc.)have been sitting around for years going unclaimed because cities don't have the capacity to plan and manage more projects or due to backlogged construction industry. It's just a fact. I don't disagree with you on spending. We need a massive increase in education and science spending(Germany is way behind the OECD average) and the federal government needs to get involved in public housing again ASAP. We also need enormous investments into rail infrastructure and local public transport.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:02
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Opferwurst posted:Full employment is generally considered to be between 4-6% unemployment. By neoliberals, yes. They need their reserve army of labour to keep wages down after all. Both Norway and the Netherlands ran sustained sub 4%, even sub 3% unemployment rates and nothing bad happened, thus disproving this poo poo.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:08
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A diesel scrappage grant is not going to do that much so it's probably not the best way to spend money. Cities are already banning Euro 1-5 cars and Euro 6 cars are too new to retire and still worth a shitton of money. You gonna scrap a shitton of Euro 1-5 cars without improving NO emmisions in cities The market for electric cars is very limited right now due to the lack of a charging infrastructure so you need to develop that first which brings us back to how hosed infrastructure projects are right now in Germany.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:09
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Orange Devil posted:I want to make two more points. Reading your posts here. I'm generally pretty ignorant on economic issues and all this stuff is fascinating. That's a perfect quote. Thank you.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:09
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Orange Devil posted:By neoliberals, yes. They need their reserve army of labour to keep wages down after all. The full employment rate is not some universal constant and depends on many factors like the quality of the local welfare system or cultural factors like labor participation rates for parents or women. Ultimately it just means that everyone who wants to work under existing socio-economic conditions has a job.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:14
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100YrsofAttitude posted:Reading your posts here. I'm generally pretty ignorant on economic issues and all this stuff is fascinating. That's a perfect quote. Thank you. Listen to the man himself, please! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qCBgJVA5js He was murdered 3 months later. Edit: replaced the link with a better, longer link, including the part where he predicts he's about to get assasinated for saying this poo poo. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 19:16
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Orange Devil posted:Such as: end private ownership of the means of production
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Aug 27, 2019 19:16
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We don't have a loving clue what the real rate of inflation is because CPI is a dumb metric. We might look at gdp, but this is also a stupid metric. We're at the end of the monetary toolbox here guys.we need fiscal policy.that means tax the loving rich,and then spend it through the only sure fire way to grow a economy.if only we had a impending situation that requires a complete mobilization of the economy and society to be dealt with. Even giving money back to the boomers so that they stash it again in saving accounts would at least create some velocity in the money supply. Instead we'll have QE2: electric bugaloo, can't wait for more stock buybacks and increased corporate debt.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:24
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Orange Devil posted:Any sane US government would do this to student and healthcare loans immediately. Don't even use government money to pay that poo poo off, just cancel it with the stroke of a pen and gently caress the creditors. It’s kind of off topic but the vast majority of student loan debt in the US is owed directly to the Federal government. This makes student loan debt forgiveness the functional equivalent of a tax cut more than anything else. It’s also a tax cut that favors high income, well educated professionals, as few construction workers or tomato pickers have loans. It’s not the most regressive tax cut we could imagine but probably the US should be taxing more, rather than less, imo.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:26
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Squalid posted:It’s kind of off topic but the vast majority of student loan debt in the US is owed directly to the Federal government. This makes student loan debt forgiveness the functional equivalent of a tax cut more than anything else. It’s also a tax cut that favors high income, well educated professionals, as few construction workers or tomato pickers have loans. It’s not the most regressive tax cut we could imagine but probably the US should be taxing more, rather than less, imo. Having a giant debt millstone around your neck before you even enter employment is going to make workers: a) easier to exploit, prevent from organizing and bury under long hours so they don't have the time or energy to engage with politics or b) ofcourse the answer is loving a) and the debt should be cancelled.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:32
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Squalid posted:It’s kind of off topic but the vast majority of student loan debt in the US is owed directly to the Federal government. This makes student loan debt forgiveness the functional equivalent of a tax cut more than anything else. It’s also a tax cut that favors high income, well educated professionals, as few construction workers or tomato pickers have loans. It’s not the most regressive tax cut we could imagine but probably the US should be taxing more, rather than less, imo. Then replace student loans with higher income tax at the top bands rather than disproportionately loving people over if they stop having a high income for whatever reason.
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Aug 27, 2019 19:32
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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suck my woke dick posted:Then replace student loans with higher income tax at the top bands rather than disproportionately loving people over if they stop having a high income for whatever reason. Minimum payments on Federal loans are capped depending on circumstances at 10-15% of discretionary income. This in effect makes student loan repayment a progressive tax. If you haven’t paid it back after 20-25 years it can be completely forgiven. There are a lot of problems with student loans especially private loans, but they are more like people getting scammed into taking out debt for worthless unaccredited programs. I’m not really sure what is gained socially or fiscally by rearranging people’s tax obligations as you suggest.. It will just result in people being mad at the new tax instead of the debt they owe the state.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:05
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Squalid posted:Minimum payments on Federal loans are capped depending on circumstances at 10-15% of discretionary income. This in effect makes student loan repayment a progressive tax. If you haven’t paid it back after 20-25 years it can be completely forgiven. it's politically really convenient, though kill the student debt and you win basically a whole generation's worth of at least flirtation with the left
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Aug 27, 2019 20:15
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V. Illych L. posted:it's politically really convenient, though The big issue, is you are cutting taxes on middle class professionals while doing nothing for the most vulnerable like illegal immigrants or elderly pensioners. They provide only a little relief to the kind of working class people who leftists need to win over like firefighters or plumbers because they have very little student loan debt. Of course cutting taxes is popular, but how do you convert that into new leftist policy? Now you have to sell the same people on tax increases of a similar magnitude. Of course the rich need to be taxed much more, but that’s true even before you do anything to student loans.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:33
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Squalid posted:The big issue, is you are cutting taxes on middle class professionals while doing nothing for the most vulnerable like illegal immigrants or elderly pensioners. They provide only a little relief to the kind of working class people who leftists need to win over like firefighters or plumbers because they have very little student loan debt. Of course cutting taxes is popular, but how do you convert that into new leftist policy? Now you have to sell the same people on tax increases of a similar magnitude. Of course the rich need to be taxed much more, but that’s true even before you do anything to student loans. Of course the rich need to be taxed more, and since you're doing tax hikes anyway you might as well cut student loans at the same time.
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Aug 27, 2019 20:50
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suck my woke dick posted:Of course the rich need to be taxed more, and since you're doing tax hikes anyway you might as well cut student loans at the same time. But it’s like. . . If you just want to stimulate the economy and help the working class it would be much more efficient to just give €10,000 each to the bottom two income quartiles. Then you aren’t wasting the 50-60% of the debt forgiveness that would go to doctors and lawyers and computer scientists. It would be dramatically more progressive
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Aug 27, 2019 21:04
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Education should be free
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Aug 27, 2019 21:05
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Squalid posted:The big issue, is you are cutting taxes on middle class professionals while doing nothing for the most vulnerable like illegal immigrants or elderly pensioners. They provide only a little relief to the kind of working class people who leftists need to win over like firefighters or plumbers because they have very little student loan debt. Of course cutting taxes is popular, but how do you convert that into new leftist policy? Now you have to sell the same people on tax increases of a similar magnitude. Of course the rich need to be taxed much more, but that’s true even before you do anything to student loans. you're building a movement. if these people have voted for, and received, something very important to them, you can probably leverage that into a more general left-wing direction - it's a group which is a necessary component of a left-wing coalition, and they're swing voters tbh i doubt that full relief is going to happen (or should happen, even), but one should at least make noises about it and give them something. we do need them, and it's a pretty easy policy to have
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Aug 27, 2019 21:08
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Andrast posted:Education should be free as a part of a more general decommodisation of education, i do agree that student loans etc should see a lot of reform. in isolation, it's not an awfully progressive policy, but it is a very popular one among a key constituency
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Aug 27, 2019 21:10
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I am confused as to the relevance of American federal student loans to European politics.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:11
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Squalid posted:But it’s like. . . If you just want to stimulate the economy and help the working class it would be much more efficient to just give €10,000 each to the bottom two income quartiles. Then you aren’t wasting the 50-60% of the debt forgiveness that would go to doctors and lawyers and computer scientists. It would be dramatically more progressive Also, if you don't believe that Andrast posted:Education should be free
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Aug 27, 2019 21:13
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education does need pretty fundamental reform though, for real
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Aug 27, 2019 21:15
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feedmegin posted:I am confused as to the relevance of American federal student loans to European politics. Grate Britane is part of Europe (for now, until Boris Johnson personally hires Nige as a consultant who finds a contractor to attach giant engines to Albion to sail into the middle of the Pacific). Grate Britane is doing its best to reach US levels of idiocy wrt student loans, and the average student is now officially not expected to ever pay that poo poo off leading to massive holes in the budget.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:16
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I think income taxes are generally high enough in Europe already, so tax policy should be more focussed in restricting base shifting undertaken by corporations. Now, if we want to tax the rich where it hurts, we have to stop focussing on income and start finding ways to effectively tax the fortunes itself, i.e. property taxes, inheritances taxes, etc.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:20
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feedmegin posted:I am confused as to the relevance of American federal student loans to European politics. I was trying to go for an easy example. A more important example is poor African countries' debts to European and American countries should be immediately cancelled. Especially if those countries just got a democratically elected government after deposing a dictator. Why the gently caress should the people be held indebted for the actions of a despot? Randler posted:I think income taxes are generally high enough in Europe already, so tax policy should be more focussed in restricting base shifting undertaken by corporations. 100% inheritance tax. 105% top marginal income tax rate. Income from dividends treated the same as income from labour. Financial transaction tax. Luxury tax. Carbon tax, hell just loving tax the poo poo out of damaging externalities in general. Tax these motherfuckers so much they won't believe it, then tax them some more. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 21:20
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Orange Devil posted:I was trying to go for an easy example. Because Duh.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:27
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Randler posted:I think income taxes are generally high enough in Europe already, so tax policy should be more focussed in restricting base shifting undertaken by corporations. Off-topic, but I'm wondering are there any reasons for states not to implement a general wealth tax. Why do we only tax someone's estate when they die? Are there practical reasons why implementing one wouldn't work? IMO for a hypothetical total wealth tax the marginal tax rate should be 100% for estates worth more than ~$10 million, with some limited exceptions for primary residence etc. We shouldn't tolerate mega-millionaires, much less billionaires at all.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:28
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^^^ The Netherlands has a wealth tax. You gotta be real wealthy before it amounts to anything approaching a significant amount though. You pay 416 euros on your first 100K. Then a further 12.302 euros on your first million. Then a further 16.800 euros per million above that. Each year. suck my woke dick posted:Because Forcing people to continue making payments on the weapon systems their deposed tyrant bought to slaughter them is exactly the same as making people pay for their own train tickets to the death camps. Tell me where I'm wrong. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Aug 27, 2019 |
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Aug 27, 2019 21:30
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Orange Devil posted:^^^ well what's your alternative, just giving the tyrant those weapons
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Aug 27, 2019 21:44
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Nocturtle posted:Off-topic, but I'm wondering are there any reasons for states not to implement a general wealth tax. Why do we only tax someone's estate when they die? Are there practical reasons why implementing one wouldn't work? A relative of mine was a government tax person. He said the wealth tax was eventually scrapped because its enforcement exceeded the income generated. One could argue that the amount of wealth redistribution and stable careers created would easily justify a tax that isn't 100% profitable. Or you might question whether the tax would really be as unprofitable at feared. I mean, seems to be pretty straightforward in the Netherlands. But it's been more than 20 years now, and only the "unelectables" have ever dared bringing it back up.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:48
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Nocturtle posted:Off-topic, but I'm wondering are there any reasons for states not to implement a general wealth tax. Why do we only tax someone's estate when they die? Are there practical reasons why implementing one wouldn't work? Orange Devil posted:Forcing people to continue making payments on the weapon systems their deposed tyrant bought to slaughter them is exactly the same as making people pay for their own train tickets to the death camps. I don't think you "get" capitalism or international relations.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:50
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Lord Stimperor posted:A relative of mine was a government tax person. He said the wealth tax was eventually scrapped because its enforcement exceeded the income generated. One could argue that the amount of wealth redistribution and stable careers created would easily justify a tax that isn't 100% profitable. Or you might question whether the tax would really be as unprofitable at feared. I mean, seems to be pretty straightforward in the Netherlands. But it's been more than 20 years now, and only the "unelectables" have ever dared bringing it back up. it's funny how this argument is only ever used when it concerns rich people if it's not bringing in money, increase the loving thing. squeeze the money out of them like water from a sponge
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Aug 27, 2019 21:53
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V. Illych L. posted:it's funny how this argument is only ever used when it concerns rich people
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Aug 27, 2019 21:57
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Thanks for the replies. I find it increasingly weird that we tolerate the existence of billionaires in our society. 99.99% of people should be on-board with taxing them out of existence, it shouldn't be a fringe opinion.
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Aug 27, 2019 21:58
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Nocturtle posted:Thanks for the replies. I find it increasingly weird that we tolerate the existence of billionaires in our society. 99.99% of people should be on-board with taxing them out of existence, it shouldn't be a fringe opinion. But what if you become a billionaire? Would you want lazy civil servants and poors to waste your hard earned money???
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Aug 27, 2019 21:59
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I reckon I'd like not getting guillotined, yeah
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Aug 27, 2019 22:05
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Kassad posted:I reckon I'd like not getting guillotined, yeah Long term thinking detected, does not compute
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Aug 27, 2019 22:10
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suck my woke dick posted:Grate Britane is part of Europe (for now, until Boris Johnson personally hires Nige as a consultant who finds a contractor to attach giant engines to Albion to sail into the middle of the Pacific). Grate Britane is doing its best to reach US levels of idiocy wrt student loans, and the average student is now officially not expected to ever pay that poo poo off leading to massive holes in the budget. I mean thats fine but we don't need to involve the yanks in that case, abolishing that poo poo was in the 2017 Labour manifesto and afaik remains party policy.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:53
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Can I just briefly say that this thread has gotten so much nicer and more informative when the fascists were booted out so we don't have to go round and round about 'why austerity is secretly good!' anymore.
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Aug 27, 2019 22:55
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