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how dare they not accept the new leader the us picked out for them
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Aug 28, 2019 15:51
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lets bomb them
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Aug 28, 2019 15:51
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sexpig by night posted:90% of Venezuelans want him gone, that's why everyone showed up and supported the coup attempt against him! They did actually. There’s been large scale protests during this entire crisis, some having attendance in the millions. What seems obvious to me and not to you is that Maduro doesn’t need the approval of civilians to remain in power. He used to, but quickly found ways to solidify his grasp after his defeat in the 2015 election.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:51
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Tollymain posted:if 90% of venezuelans wanted him gone, hed be gone, dipshit And what mechanism would be employed in getting rid of him here? The electoral bodies that he's corrupted? The legislature that he superceded? The courts that he packed? The opposition members that he's imprisoned?
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Aug 28, 2019 15:53
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VitalSigns posted:So the one where the US didn't do regime change? That wasn’t a condition specified by Tollymain The US did do regime change in the Dominican Republic in 1975. It wasn’t completely bloodless but the DR was already in the middle of a chaotic civil war which the US intervention promptly ended so it’s hard to blame that on US action.
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Aug 28, 2019 15:58
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Tollymain posted:did you just try to call noninterventionism "the new white mans burden" tbf ignoring the voices of actual Venezuelan posters + incessantly posting about how said Venezuelans are actually Nazis who support US intervention is coloniser bullshit, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Aug 28, 2019 16:01
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Giggle Goose posted:And what mechanism would be employed in getting rid of him here? The electoral bodies that he's corrupted? The legislature that he superceded? The courts that he packed? The opposition members that he's imprisoned? What mechanism do you think the US troops would use in the case of a military intervention?
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Aug 28, 2019 16:01
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Tollymain posted:if 90% of venezuelans wanted him gone, hed be gone, dipshit The 10% who want him to say in power are the ones with guns and tear gas and prisons.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:01
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i consider bougie people to be stateless vampires, really yes, that is directed at all present
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Aug 28, 2019 16:02
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Bob le Moche posted:What mechanism do you think the US troops would use in the case of a military intervention? So you don't have any kind of answer to the question posed then? Just more disengenous misdirection?
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Aug 28, 2019 16:05
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Giggle Goose posted:So you don't have any kind of answer to the question posed then? Just more disengenous misdirection?
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Aug 28, 2019 16:08
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i literally dont know how you people live with yourselves. its disgusting
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Aug 28, 2019 16:09
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Venomous posted:tbf ignoring the voices of actual Venezuelan posters + incessantly posting about how said Venezuelans are actually Nazis who support US intervention is coloniser bullshit, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ leftist colonizers ignoring the voices of Ahmad Chalabi begging for the Iraqi people to be bombed smdh, they've become what they claim to despise
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Aug 28, 2019 16:14
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Tollymain posted:i literally dont know how you people live with yourselves. its disgusting It is a serious question to a serious problem. Without international pressure, what pathway do you see that would lead towards the restoration of Venezuelan democracy?
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Aug 28, 2019 16:15
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VitalSigns posted:leftist colonizers ignoring the voices of Ahmad Chalabi begging for the Iraqi people to be bombed smdh, they've become what they claim to despise
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Aug 28, 2019 16:17
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Giggle Goose posted:It is a serious question to a serious problem. Without international pressure, what pathway do you see that would lead towards the restoration of Venezuelan democracy? Debt forgiveness, a Marshall Plan of international aid to put the economy back on its feet, destroy Maduro's narrative that it's him fighting for Venezuela against the Yanqui oppressor strangling their economy. Without that narrative there's nothing to keep the support of the people, offer him a safe luxurious retirement in a nice estate somewhere in Switzerland or wherever in exchange for leaving peacefully. Just kidding, carpet bomb Caracas and send in Exxon and BP to seize the resources and turn the plantations back over to the dispossessed land baron class, obviously that'll do it.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:23
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VitalSigns posted:Debt forgiveness, a Marshall Plan of international aid to put the economy back on its feet, destroy Maduro's narrative that it's him fighting for Venezuela against the Yanqui oppressor strangling their economy. Sorry, but wouldn’t a Marshall plan count as US imperialism? Am I missing something here? There is not one person in this thread who wants a military intervention. But I’ve proposed things like that before, and they were struck down by the CSPAM types as unworkable because it’d mean perduring US influence.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:36
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VitalSigns posted:Debt forgiveness, a Marshall Plan of international aid to put the economy back on its feet, destroy Maduro's narrative that it's him fighting for Venezuela against the Yanqui oppressor strangling their economy. Maduro was rejecting international aid until like March of this year. Why would he agree to participate in setting things in motion that could have him even remotely facing the possibility of appearing in front of the ICC or giving up enough military control that he could be murdered in a populist uprising? You don’t think he was given the option to leave the country during negotiations about allowing new elections? His response was that he wanted to stall elections for as long as possible and he wanted to run virtually unopposed. He’s not buying what you’re selling.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:44
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VitalSigns posted:Debt forgiveness, a Marshall Plan of international aid to put the economy back on its feet, destroy Maduro's narrative that it's him fighting for Venezuela against the Yanqui oppressor strangling their economy. I think that you have some great ideas in your first paragraph but I'm not sure I see how these steps would end in Maduro's ouster. How would you keep him and his from simply stealing all this aid, as they have in the past? How does this account for Maduro's subversion of the Venezuelan constitution? Given that Russia and China hold much of the nation's debt, how would you convince them to get on board? Finally, and this is something that has been brought up over and over again, what do you propose be done about the fact that Russia and China are already taking control of huge parts of the Venezuelan economy? Just ask them to give it back? Edit clarity
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Aug 28, 2019 16:45
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BigFactory posted:Maduro was rejecting international aid until like March of this year. Why would he agree to participate in setting things in motion that could have him even remotely facing the possibility of appearing in front of the ICC or giving up enough military control that he could be murdered in a populist uprising? You don’t think he was given the option to leave the country during negotiations about allowing new elections? His response was that he wanted to stall elections for as long as possible and he wanted to run virtually unopposed. He’s not buying what you’re selling. OK well then rejecting debt forgiveness and more comprehensive aid will only make him look worse in the eyes of the people, which is what you want anyway no? fnox posted:Sorry, but wouldn’t a Marshall plan count as US imperialism? Am I missing something here? Is it your position that all aid is 'imperialism'? It certainly can be a vehicle for that (and under the present US administration certainly would be), which is why we should vote out this administration and replace it with one that believes in justice for the global south not exploitation
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Aug 28, 2019 16:47
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us aid that turns out to be truckloads of munitions to support capitalist deathsquads
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Aug 28, 2019 16:52
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weird, howd that happen, there must have been a mixup,
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Aug 28, 2019 16:52
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Kurnugia posted:maybe you could try making posts that aren't bullshit lies about "millions of protesters" Oh. Haven’t you seen the pictures? Even relatively recent ones by Guaido had the Francisco Fajardo covered from end to end. The opposition has regularly scheduled multitudinary marches, they never make it any farther than Los Chaguáramos or Sabana Grande because the PNB are stationed at the same locations every time. Once anybody reaches them, they throw gas grenades. fnox fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 16:56
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VitalSigns posted:OK well then rejecting debt forgiveness and more comprehensive aid will only make him look worse in the eyes of the people, which is what you want anyway no? You seem to be under the impression that he looks good in the eyes of the people. This is not true. He’s extremely good at crushing opposition though. He’s being investigated for crimes against humanity for his brutal treatment of political enemies. “The analysis of the panel of experts includes a detailed evaluation of how a situation of commission of crimes against humanity in Venezuela would have been configured, based on generalized or systematic attacks against a part of the civilian population of that country, constituted by the opposition to the government of President Nicolás Maduro. They give a detailed explanation of how various crimes against humanity would have occurred, including references to specific cases that would serve as examples. A particularly dramatic aspect are the alleged arbitrary detentions, murders, extrajudicial executions, torture, sexual abuse and rape, as well as flagrant attacks against due process, to the detriment of people of both sexes, including minors. At the same time, a systematic action would be carried out against young men between 15 and 30 years old, who, without justification, would be arrested or taken away from their homes to accuse them of acts they would not have committed, or to kill them on the grounds that they resisted.” https://www.icc-cpi.int/itemsDocuments/180925-otp-referral-venezuela_ENG.pdf This isn’t the US accusing him of this, either. It’s Paraguay, Argentina, Chile, Columbia, Peru and Canada.
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Aug 28, 2019 16:59
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Statements that everyone itt can unequivocally agree with: 1. Maduro is bad, because he's suspended democracy and, amongst other crimes, has been starving his people since his accession to power. 2. The PSUV is bad, because it's full of sycophants propping up Maduro's regime. 3. The US is bad, because it's a fascist dictatorship which regularly destabilises and plunders South American nations for its own benefit. 4. US intervention is bad, because 3. 5. US sanctions are bad, because even if Maduro wasn't willingly starving the Venezuelan people, they sure as poo poo aren't making things any better. 6. The opposition is also bad because the majority of opposition members are either pro-US neoliberals or fascists. 7. Venezuela's only option (besides social anarchist revolution) is to depose Maduro from inside without any US intervention and form a democratically elected government which rejects Chavismo, neoliberalism, and fascism. Have I got this all right?
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Aug 28, 2019 17:03
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Giggle Goose posted:Finally, and this is something that has been brought up over and over again, what do you propose be done about the fact that Russia and China are already taking control of huge parts of the Venezuelan economy? Just ask them to give it back? I assume that if, as you say, Russia and China control large swaths of the economy, then there has to be significant economic activity there for them to control. So if 90% of Venezuelans want Maduro out, a step towards that (and towards kicking out any imperialist control of the economy and re-establishing sovereignty over it) would be an organized general labour strike across the country, within all those economic sectors and especially the ones owned by foreign capital. Last time this was suggested in this thread though fnox said it was impossible because: fnox posted:the people depend on handouts by the state. Edit: typo Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 17:05
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Venomous posted:Statements that everyone itt can unequivocally agree with: I agree
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Aug 28, 2019 17:06
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Discendo Vox posted:de Zayas is germane to discussion because, as has been the case previously in this thread, he was cited as a source of authority on Venezuela. If you read the sentence immediately before the part you bolded, you will see I am specifically describing the rapporteur format within the UN, which is the source of his authority. And if you read the sentence immediately after the bolded section, you can see I'm referring specifically to de Zayas' track record. (you might also notice this falls under "post about UN poo poo regarding venezuela". Which people did, in this thread. de Zayas has a specific record regarding his statements and reports on Venezuela, and a history which reflects on his credibility as a source on Venezuela. That is what people are discussing. The United States is a major actor in this situation and its support has been an important part of the opposition's plan to oust Maduro and hold new elections. If the past behaviour of a special rapporteur from the UN is germane to this discussion then so is the past behavior of the United States' "Special Envoy" to Venezuela, or the past track record of the United States generally. It's no different from your comment on how the UN as an institution has appointed officials who are actually there to carry out some seperate agenda that doesn't closely fit their official mandate. The only difference is that actually the United States is a far more consequential actor in this crisis than the UN. It's clear from your last sentence that your real objection here is that people aren't discussing the larger political context in the way that you want them to, and you reflexively assume that is done out of bad faith and should be censored by the authorities rather than engaged with. quote:Which you know, because it's what you are attempting to do. No, quite the opposite. I think that if a few bad actors were removed from this thread and everyone else was willing to dial down the insane levels of vitriol then we could debate and discuss the topic more easily. Personally I would love for this thread to move slowly enough that it could sustain more discussion of the economic causes of the crisis and what the government could have done differently when it had more room for maneuver.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:09
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Bob le Moche posted:Is it bad when Russia & China do it, but good when NATO-aligned countries do it? Because we agree that it's bad in all cases and 90% of Venezuelans want Maduro out, then when the people of Venezuela kick Maduro out themselves, then they can also seize those parts of the economy that are now owned by foreign capital, kick out the Russian/Chinese/American owners, and socialize them. Which is definitely not going to happen if you let any one of those countries orchestrate Maduro's exit and put their own puppet in power to protect their investments.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:13
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fnox posted:Sorry, but wouldn’t a Marshall plan count as US imperialism? Am I missing something here? Did you not reject exactly that suggestion when I made it six weeks ago? I am genuinely really confused here. You seemed to be totally against that policy and now you're not only advocating it you're actually complaining that you suggested it and other people rejected it? What am I missing here?
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Aug 28, 2019 17:14
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BigFactory posted:What if the majority of Venezuelans don’t actually care about any of this except getting rid of a tyrant and going back to some semblance of a normal life?
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Aug 28, 2019 17:16
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Bob le Moche posted:Everything else still applies then What does that mean?
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Aug 28, 2019 17:17
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BigFactory posted:What does that mean? Bob le Moche posted:If 90% of Venezuelans want Maduro out, a step towards that would be an organized general labour strike across the country, within all economic sectors. Last time this was suggested in this thread though fnox said it was impossible because:
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Aug 28, 2019 17:21
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Bob le Moche posted:I'm not sure what he meant by that or what the point is. He also seemed to refer to a lockout by management as a previous attempt at general strike, which it definitely is not. Who is going to organize a general strike? Maduro is brutal to his political enemies. They end up dead.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:23
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BigFactory posted:Maduro is brutal to his political enemies. They end up dead. But to be perfectly honest with you I have a nagging feeling that this discussion might not entirely be happening in good faith and that the real reason why pro-intervention posters believe a general strike is impossible, and why they continuously suggest the only solution is US intervention despite insisting that they don't *actually* want it to happen - might be that the "90% of Venezuelans" figure is a gross exaggeration and that large segments of the Venezuelan proletariat actually still support the PSUV even at this point - and so the classes who call for intervention, the same ones who organized the 2002-2003 managerial lockout, cannot rely on organized labour to join in an action like a general strike, leaving them with pleading the US to intervene as their only option. It's very hard to tell whether that is what's actually happening or not.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:40
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Giggle Goose posted:It is a serious question to a serious problem. Without international pressure, what pathway do you see that would lead towards the restoration of Venezuelan democracy? When it comes to the global south, the US (and the West in general) are not good, well-meaning actors. It is quite literally no different than wanting Russia to intervene and pressure Venezuela (and one could pretty easily make the argument that it's actually worse, given the US's own history). The US (and literally every other powerful/wealthy nation) are not good guys with positive intentions towards Venezuela or any other country in the global south. There is no "good country with Venezuela's best interests at heart" that even exists to do this hypothetical benevolent intervention. Also, you can construct this same argument about virtually every poorer country on the planet, most of which have considerably worse records regarding democratic processes than Venezuela. Pointing out bad things about a country is not, and never has been, a justification for foreign intervention replacing a country's government/leadership. And perhaps most importantly, Venezuelans don't want the US to intervene and replace the government. Disapproval towards Maduro is not synonymous with wanting him to be replaced by foreign countries. Venomous posted:Statements that everyone itt can unequivocally agree with: Mostly, except for most of #1. "Is starving his people" implies that the starving is some active process that he could just stop doing, and Venezuela is not particularly remarkable in terms of antidemocratic behavior. Maduro did not come to power and then steal all the food, or whatever language like that seems to imply. There is a huge difference between "not solving an economic problem that results in starvation" and "directly causing starvation" (namely that the former means that any given replacement isn't preferable unless they actually have a solution to the problem, while the latter implies that almost anyone would be better by default). It's not surprising that language like this is used, though; the idea that Maduro/the PSUV are stealing all the food and directly causing people to starve is kinda necessary to justify any sort of foreign intervention. A realistic evaluation of the situation would require alternatives to provide their own solutions that would help the Venezuelan people. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 17:54
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Bob le Moche posted:So was Nicholas II. I think you'll find that historically general strikes are more likely to happen under conditions of oppression, not less. Especially in places that still have active organized labour institutions like Venezuela. There is also the fact that unemployment in Venezuela is among the highest on Earth so I don't imagine that those people striking would accomplish much. Also, it is my understanding that the sheer amount of effort that most people employ in order to obtain basic food stuffs makes it difficult for many to engage in non survival focused activities at all.
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Aug 28, 2019 17:55
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Helsing posted:Did you not reject exactly that suggestion when I made it six weeks ago? I am genuinely really confused here. You seemed to be totally against that policy and now you're not only advocating it you're actually complaining that you suggested it and other people rejected it? What am I missing here? I don't reject it, so much as I think it's a plan for the future of the country after Maduro, not something that will get Maduro removed. He doesn't need a do-over, he needs to go, then we can start rebuilding. What I'm referring to there, is that the idea of being against any and all US action while being in favour of a Marshall plan seems like doublespeak. Also Bob le Moche talking about "managerial lockout" lol, you weren't there, I did, I lived through it. Businesses joined in. I was out of school for like three months. It's the closest thing Venezuela has ever got to a general strike. Now, strikes where business close shop that don't include PDVSA have happened before. Government workers won't join in out of fear of getting fired when the strike is inevitably outlasted due to how PDVSA isn't joining it. PDVSA itself won't be joining in, because it's heavily militarized nowadays. Bob, you haven't been up against military rule. You don't understand. These people have no qualms whatsoever just disappearing whoever gets in the way. People have been protesting en masse. There's hundreds of events that don't get international press because of just how hostile security forces are to the press. To say that the population has just been quietly treading along because they're really down with the bullshit Maduro peddles is a fantasy. All it would take would be a fair election for that to be demonstrated. As for handouts by the government, I am referring to CLAP boxes, something which about 60% of households have to rely on to be able to afford any food. It's heavily politicized, extremely corrupt, and doesn't ever supply anyone with the amount of food they need to actually live. That's what Maduro has attempted to do to solve the crisis. As expected, it's only intensified it. Ytlaya posted:When it comes to the global south, the US (and the West in general) are not good, well-meaning actors. It is quite literally no different than wanting Russia to intervene and pressure Venezuela (and one could pretty easily make the argument that it's actually worse, given the US's own history). The US (and literally every other powerful/wealthy nation) are not good guys with positive intentions towards Venezuela or any other country in the global south. So you're saying the Venezuelan people should just, pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and fight a military dictatorship that kills thousands all on their own, without help. Because it's inconvenient for you, that they need help. Love that dig on "poor countries" though, nice, Venezuela's just a third world shithole, isn't it? Not much to redeem there right? Did you know that Venezuela had the highest standard of living of any Latin American country until like, the 1980's? Ytlaya posted:Mostly, except for most of #1. "Is starving his people" implies that the starving is some active process that he could just stop doing, and Venezuela is not particularly remarkable in terms of antidemocratic behavior. Maduro did not come to power and then steal all the food, or whatever language like that seems to imply. There is a huge difference between "not solving an economic problem that results in starvation" and "directly causing starvation" (namely that the former means that any given replacement isn't preferable unless they actually have a solution to the problem, while the latter implies that almost anyone would be better by default). He could stop a lot of active processes yes. He could stop currency controls, they don't work, they don't seem to do anything but funnel money for corruption. He could just accept the fact that the economy is by de facto dollarized and just end hyperinflation, he could end the absurdly costly oil subsidy, he could just let supermarkets sell and stock items as they can, and have a more workable subsidy rather than the absurdly strict and unworkable price controls. There's dozens of economic measures he could enact overnight to at the very least stop making the situation worse. Maduro is, very literally, starving people for power. That's what the CLAP boxes are. If you're against the government, you don't get a box. It's all ran through the Homeland Card, which is a system Maduro invented to guarantee compliance in elections. And I'm sorry, "not remarkable in terms of antidemocratic behavior"? There's thousands murdered by security forces, thousands more tortured, there's millions displaced. What the gently caress are you talking about? fnox fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Aug 28, 2019 |
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Aug 28, 2019 17:58
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Tollymain posted:if 90% of venezuelans wanted him gone, hed be gone, dipshit It's more like 50% of venezuelans wanted him gone in a certain point of time, threw huge marches, lost because they don't have tanks and left the country, so there's little political will left. Chavez/Maduro is akin to a natural disaster, you can't fight it, just look for a way to move on. When the first waves of venezuelan refugees came here, they were very political, attacking Maduro all the time, etc. The Guaido business was the high point, a lot of them thought that it was THE moment, but alas, the guy had the charisma and political acumen of a potato and US foreign policy under Trump is all bark and no bite. Now the venezuelans I meet don't talk politics anymore, they kinda accepted that they will live in Peru for a long time or eventually move to a better place, it's pretty sad, but is not uncommon here in Latin America. Most of my family left for other countries in the 80s and early 90s during the Aprocalipsis. What's uncommon is how long and how deep the venezuelan crisis has gone
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Aug 28, 2019 19:09
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yeah i'd hesitate to say that Guaido's lack of support was either - Venezuelans roundly rejecting a US puppet and/or his diabolical neoliberal policies, or - Venezuelans actually supporting Maduro, so much as - the MUD haven't been particularly competent in the past (they SERIOUSLY squandered at least two prior rounds of extremely widespread and large grassrooty protests) and did a very poor job of organizing in the runup to and attempt at the revolt and yet even then, there were substantial anti-Maduro protests and a concurrent but maybe not entirely related revolt by [indigenous group] down by the Brazilian border
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Aug 28, 2019 19:19
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