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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:This is a seriously misguided bit of ultraleftism. As Che explained at length, genuine democracy - including, I would argue, police or prison abolition - is not possible for nations facing imperialism, as they’ll simply be immediately attacked by imperialists through terrorism, mass criminality, unrest, etc. This sort of criticism is without merit and is the provenance of leftists who are afraid to get their hands dirty or bad faith chauvinists. Of course many people are usually able to suss our false claims of “authoritarianism” or “totalitarianism” when discussing the historical USSR but become a lot more myopic when nonwhite countries are facing those kinds of criticisms today.
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Aug 28, 2019 23:55
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Only when we finally get to have White History Month, teacup Of course it’s about that. Of course.
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Aug 29, 2019 00:03
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caesar massacring gauls is like a textbook definition of imperialism, hth
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Aug 29, 2019 00:19
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No the only genuine and factual definition of imperialism is the one based on literature published in the mid 19th-century, also known as the end of history since which nothing important has happened that might warrant its reassessment
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Aug 29, 2019 00:34
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Herstory Begins Now posted:caesar massacring gauls is like a textbook definition of imperialism, hth Imperialism shouldn't be a concept before modern nation state, which is to say, before the Treaty of Westphalia.
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Aug 29, 2019 00:34
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tino posted:Imperialism shouldn't be a concept before modern nation state, which is to say, before the Treaty of Westphalia. The idea that the only political sovereignty that matters is the post-Westphalian nation-state is like one of the fundamental justifications that modern imperialists would give as to why their imperialism is okay dude
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Aug 29, 2019 00:39
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It’s not the “only poo poo that matters”, what shocking bad faith reading. It’s just not “imperialism” any time two countries anytime in history have a dispute.
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Aug 29, 2019 00:41
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:It’s not the “only poo poo that matters”, what shocking bad faith reading. It’s just not “imperialism” any time two countries anytime in history have a dispute. When do you think White History Month should be though? Do you put it in January?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:06
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Fojar38 posted:The idea that the only political sovereignty that matters is the post-Westphalian nation-state is like one of the fundamental justifications that modern imperialists would give as to why their imperialism is okay dude yea I dunno if that was a joke that whooshed or whatever but the idea that before Westphalia we were all just independent actors that just HAPPENED to form rigid societies with hierarchies and rulers, and those societies just HAPPENED to send people out to steal land and resources is literally one of the core tent poles of imperial whitewashing.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:07
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don't ask me, ask the guy who wants to know when “the statute of limitations” of colonialism and imperialism is up
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Aug 29, 2019 01:08
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sexpig by night posted:yea I dunno if that was a joke that whooshed or whatever but the idea that before Westphalia we were all just independent actors that just HAPPENED to form rigid societies with hierarchies and rulers, and those societies just HAPPENED to send people out to steal land and resources is literally one of the core tent poles of imperial whitewashing. it’s not a joke. pre-capitalist/Westphalian societies, even those ruled by Emperors and who stole land or whatever from neighbors, are definitionally never “imperialist”.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:11
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sexpig by night posted:yea I dunno if that was a joke that whooshed or whatever but the idea that before Westphalia we were all just independent actors that just HAPPENED to form rigid societies with hierarchies and rulers, and those societies just HAPPENED to send people out to steal land and resources is literally one of the core tent poles of imperial whitewashing. So horse riding central asians who conquered the hunter gatherers of Europan plain in 20,000 BC were imperialists?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:14
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tino posted:So horse riding central asians who conquered the hunter gatherers of Europan plain in 20,000 BC were imperialists? *points at dog* imperialist.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:14
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:it’s not a joke. pre-capitalist/Westphalian societies, even those rules by Emperors and who stole land or whatever from neighbors, are definitionally never “imperialist”. so just to be clear, the Spanish Empire wasn't actually Imperialist until after the late 1640's? Before that they were just a monarchy that happened to be devouring other lands for religious and economical conquest?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:15
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If it happens before a certain year it’s only statutory imperialism
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Aug 29, 2019 01:20
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Pirate Radar posted:If it happens before a certain year it’s only statutory imperialism *Cortez burning down a city while his men ransack it of anything that glitters so Spain can get wealth and power from the conquest of a new land* "You'll be psyched to know this isn't actually imperialism but rather aggressive forced reformation."
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Aug 29, 2019 01:22
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sexpig by night posted:so just to be clear, the Spanish Empire wasn't actually Imperialist until after the late 1640's? Before that they were just a monarchy that happened to be devouring other lands for religious and economical conquest? slavery, devastation, genocide, little i-imperialism, sure. but it was foundering steps towards something that wasn't fully realized as capital-I Imperialism until the 19th century. Imperialism, capital I, is fundamentally a stage in the development of capitalism. if you disagree with the usefulness of the description you can take it up with Lenin or enjoy having coined another synonym for "bad things". like i said, if you're a liberal or reactionary antimarxist i don't really have anything for you, it's a pointless conversation. my quibbles, for now, are quite parochial. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 01:22
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Bloodnose posted:Yes the cops in Hong Kong are definitely guardians of the socialist economy... of Hong Kong. Hold on lemme check my chart sounds like a good reason to end the 2C1S formulation and bring Chinese Socialism to Hong Kong.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:24
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Genghis Khan was not an imperialist, and frankly spent much of his life redistributing wealth from the Chinese bourgeoisie to the Mongolian proletariat
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Aug 29, 2019 01:25
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It's really great that we're seeing Eddie Izzard's "do you have a flag?" routine argued unironically in this thread
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Aug 29, 2019 01:28
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Fojar38 posted:It's really great that we're seeing Eddie Izzard's "do you have a flag?" routine argued unironically in this thread personally i think its fantastic to see so many fans of Niall Ferguson's "actually the aztecs and cortez both had empires so vae victus" routine, anywhere at all
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Aug 29, 2019 01:30
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Genghis Khan was not an imperialist, and frankly spent much of his life redistributing wealth from the Chinese bourgeoisie to the Mongolian proletariat Like all brocialists, he treated women like property.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:31
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I don't think anyone here is saying "imperialism is good." I think that lots of people are, however, contesting the arbitrary redefinition of the word "imperialism" to exclude 99.9% of human history for the purposes of depriving anyone who isn't European of historical agency
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Aug 29, 2019 01:35
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Genghis Khan was not an imperialist, and frankly spent much of his life redistributing wealth from the Chinese bourgeoisie to the Mongolian proletariat The main purpose of Genghis Khan was to spread his seed as much as possible in Eurasia.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:38
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tino posted:The main purpose of Genghis Khan was to spread his seed as much as possible in Eurasia. thereby permanently abolishing ethnic nationalism, a favorite tool to divide the workers against one another
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Aug 29, 2019 01:42
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Fojar38 posted:I don't think anyone here is saying "imperialism is good." I think that lots of people are, however, contesting the arbitrary redefinition of the word "imperialism" to exclude 99.9% of human history for the purposes of depriving anyone who isn't European of historical agency There were imperialist powers who weren't european, one of them is quite close to china. "imperialism" is a word that has meaning, like "industrialism" or "capitalism". Just like how some countries "industrialized" while others did not (prior to being colonized or whatever) doesn't mean the others were lazy, although racists and imperialists historically tried to argue that it did mean that. The rejoinder isn't to say "actually [colonized nation] was industrialized", if in fact it had not.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:44
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:slavery, devastation, genocide, little i-imperialism, sure. but it was foundering steps towards something that wasn't fully realized as capital-I Imperialism until the 19th century. Imperialism, capital I, is fundamentally a stage in the development of capitalism. if you disagree with the usefulness of the description you can take it up with Lenin or enjoy having coined another synonym for "bad things". like i said, if you're a liberal or reactionary antimarxist i don't really have anything for you, it's a pointless conversation. my quibbles, for now, are quite parochial. Do you have a basis for this assertion that is not "Because Lenin was like, really smart" Because I'm a historian and, well, no.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:44
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:personally i think its fantastic to see so many fans of Niall Ferguson's "actually the aztecs and cortez both had empires so vae victus" routine, anywhere at all What a shockingly bad reading of my post. It’s just isn’t China now big enough to stop leaning on “but but the Europeans!” For everything? Like it’s fair game still for tons of countries including parts of China or specific issues in China. But let’s give them some loving credit ok?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:44
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Mantis42 posted:sounds like a good reason to end the 2C1S formulation and bring Chinese Socialism to Hong Kong. Protesters turning Hong Kong socialist would be the fastest possible route to the PLA rolling in for Tiananmen II
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Aug 29, 2019 01:45
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Shut the gently caress up about imperialism. Let's go back to Hong Kongers (in awesome makeshift weapon) beating up Hong Kongers (in awesome Cyberpunk outfit).
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Aug 29, 2019 01:46
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Arguments that circle around the supposedly proper use of their favorite terms of art with minimal considerations for context are some of my least favorite things about conversations with Leninists. At best, it’s pedantic, and at worst, it comes off as abandonment of critical thinking to esoteric dogma. Can we please talk about China and Hong Kong again? Are there any goons here that know if there has been any changes to the travel regulations between HK and the mainland because of these protests? I’ll be back in Guangdong in a few months.
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Aug 29, 2019 01:53
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Yes, don't wear black. Also why are you going thru HKG to Guangdong?
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Aug 29, 2019 01:57
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Sorry, I was not being clear. I’m flying into and mostly staying in Guangzhou, but I plan to see family and friends all around the area until I run out of vacation time.
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Aug 29, 2019 02:02
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Aug 29, 2019 02:58
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Yeah that's the saddest and also most damning thing about China: if the HK protests were anti-capitalist the tanks would be rolling by now.
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Aug 29, 2019 03:23
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Kill Bristol posted:You really never met a protest movement you didn’t want to grind into powder, huh? But hey guess what, I also managed to never be a part of a movement that was supported by white supremacists or that received funding from the National Endowment for Democracy. It's not actually that hard.
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Aug 29, 2019 04:28
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Bob le Moche posted:I've been getting beaten up by cops and arrested for protesting for years now. I've had loaded handguns pointed at me and close comrades lose their eyes, limbs, and get brain injuries at the hands of the police. I've been slandered with lies and demonized by the very same media that is now uncritically celebrating the Hong Kong protests. You have no idea what you're talking about so please kindly spare me baseless comments like this one. lol I mean you can use anecdotes about your lovely little white noise protests to compare it with a huge grassroots movement that extremists are trying to leech on for their own benefit, but at least we can agree that ACAB
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Aug 29, 2019 04:34
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Bob le Moche posted:I've been getting beaten up by cops and arrested for protesting for years now. I've had loaded handguns pointed at me and close comrades lose their eyes, limbs, and get brain injuries at the hands of the police. I've been slandered with lies and demonized by the very same media that is now uncritically celebrating the Hong Kong protests. You have no idea what you're talking about so please kindly spare me baseless comments like this one. I don't believe you, there's no way that police would go that hard on a fascist.
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Aug 29, 2019 04:35
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Fojar38 posted:I don't believe you, there's no way that police would go that hard on a fascist. Wow are you saying that I'm, in fact, the "Real Fascist"? That's a new one I've never heard that one before, especially not from people on the same side of an issue as Steve Bannon or the CIA
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Aug 29, 2019 05:05
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sexpig by night posted:so just to be clear, the Spanish Empire wasn't actually Imperialist until after the late 1640's? Before that they were just a monarchy that happened to be devouring other lands for religious and economical conquest? genociding central america was something other than imperialism, that's good to know Here i'd been thinking that the spanish were bad guys
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Aug 29, 2019 05:16
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