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marktheando posted:Yes nobody who knows anything thought there was ever any chance of the queen intervening. The only scenarios in which I can see her intervening are if there's a motion of no confidence and Johnson refuses to resign, or if Parliament passes a bill and Johnson advises her to withhold royal assent. Both of those things are listed in that Buzzfeed article from yesterday, but I still think those two in particular are less likely than Parliament just not getting its poo poo together in time to prevent a no-deal Brexit.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:12
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baka kaba posted:I guess it's like the electoral college right - you have a small number of representatives who actually have a vote, and technically they don't all have to vote the way their state's electorate told them to... but they still do because there'd be big trouble and a constitutional crisis if they actually exercised their power It's a decent comparison, though electors have been "unfaithful" not all that uncommonly. Just never so much that it mattered I think. And if they did? Oh I wish they would, because maybe we'd finally dumpster the loving EC which manages to hurt us and be anti-democratic all the same.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:15
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Can you guys think of anything which would make the queen refuse the request of the PM? E: Oh heh tagesschau posted:The only scenarios in which I can see her intervening are if there's a motion of no confidence and Johnson refuses to resign, or if Parliament passes a bill and Johnson advises her to withhold royal assent. Both of those things are listed in that Buzzfeed article from yesterday, but I still think those two in particular are less likely than Parliament just not getting its poo poo together in time to prevent a no-deal Brexit.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:19
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punk rebel ecks posted:How can the parliament be suspended and why does it need the Queen's approval? What kind of democratic system is that? Because that literally happens every year and you're like the fourth person asking this question. The queen is the the legal fiction from which the government derives its right to govern. Every country has one, ours is just generally self propelled and heils hitler more than most. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 20:22
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WhatEvil posted:Can you guys think of anything which would make the queen refuse the request of the PM? Also Corbs telling her to GTFO.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:24
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Grape posted:And if they did? Oh I wish they would, because maybe we'd finally dumpster the loving EC which manages to hurt us and be anti-democratic all the same. It's called the EU these days, Mr Farage 
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Aug 29, 2019 20:30
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Does the queen actually give any amount of fucks on a personal level? Obviously a rhetorical question because nobody knows, but it's very possible she'd just go "whatevs m8" and rubber stamp the thing and go back to whatever hobbies she has
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Aug 29, 2019 20:32
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Apropos of nothing much except me having an 8 hour bus journey today and listening to a lot of podcasts, the latest Reel Politik episode is an extended interview with Mark Seddon and if anyone is in the mood for a bunch of amusingly told Labour insider war stories from the late 90s/early 00s I can recommend it.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:33
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baka kaba posted:Does the queen actually give any amount of fucks on a personal level? Obviously a rhetorical question because nobody knows, but it's very possible she'd just go "whatevs m8" and rubber stamp the thing and go back to whatever hobbies she has I think she probably does. From every account you ever read about her, she does take the whole being-Queen business quite seriously, in terms of being briefed and doing her best. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she's got at least some strong views on it. Which way they lean though, gently caress knows.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:34
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punk rebel ecks posted:How can the parliament be suspended and why does it need the Queen's approval? What kind of democratic system is that? The Queen's approval is essentially a rubber stamp and no more. Asking Liz for permission is a constitutional formality, her saying no would have been a far greater break from norms than her saying yes. Bastani is entirely right that this is the country functioning as intended, because this country is inherently dysfunctional and like the States a lot of it is held together by norms and people respecting the norms and Brexit has thrown those out the window so the system is kind of hosed. Which is probably why a system held together by shared norms and values is so utterly poorly equipped to deal with Boris and Farage. A lot of this damage was done in the Blair years because he changed the norms around the PM and tried to be all Presidential within a parliamentary system. Bercow as speaker has tried to reverse this but inertia often wins out. And all that is why we need a new constitution, one that places worker democracy at the forefront in the manner of the Kronstadt Declaration
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Aug 29, 2019 20:34
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I imagine the Queen most probably has quite strong personal opinions about everything that's going on, but there's no way she's going to let on what they are.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:35
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She probably holds a grudge against some former german aristoprat and is full on brexit becauae of it. Her brain probably rotted away 20 years ago.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:37
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Bardeh posted:I imagine the Queen most probably has quite strong personal opinions about everything that's going on, but there's no way she's going to let on what they are. Apparently, she offers PMs and ministers a lot of advice and training in their new jobs. It's not a formal role, it's just a result of her being at the heart of British politics for decades and being very experienced in how it all works. Presumably, her opinions bleed through a bit when she does that.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:38
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Saith posted:She probably holds a grudge against some former german aristoprat and is full on brexit becauae of it. Her brain probably rotted away 20 years ago. Pretty sure she's just a meat puppet controlled by corgis and dorgis now.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:41
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Darth Walrus posted:Apparently, she offers PMs and ministers a lot of advice and training in their new jobs. It's not a formal role, it's just a result of her being at the heart of British politics for decades and being very experienced in how it all works. Presumably, her opinions bleed through a bit when she does that. Can I get an honest show of hands on how often y'all read "PM" and accidentally read it as "private message", because I had a brief mental image of the Queen of England sliding into Boris Johnson's DMs on Twitter and it was something.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:42
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punk rebel ecks posted:How can the parliament be suspended and why does it need the Queen's approval? What kind of democratic system is that? This is basically just a break between sessions, something most bodies of government have. The whole queen’s speech thing is just window dressing. The only unusual thing here is that Boris is (purposely) timing it at the worst possible moment.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:43
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https://twitter.com/Queen_UK/status/1166642126161174530
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Aug 29, 2019 20:44
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Bardeh posted:I imagine the Queen most probably has quite strong personal opinions about everything that's going on, but there's no way she's going to let on what they are. She is supposedly happy enough to tell PMs what she thinks when they visit her (and this is entirely within convention), but accepts that she's absolutely not supposed to give any hint of what they are beyond the walls of that room. As G-man says she's also reported to take her role very very seriously, she spends hours every day reading the briefings she gets and so on. There's probably nobody else alive with a better understanding of how the government functions (lol) and the state of the country. The problems arise when people start trying to divine her Real Actual Opinions because "Ooooh she wore a brooch with a sapphire in it, and sapphire was the gemstone Lord Peepus of Barmbrack killed Montague de Montfort y Pfeffeffeffel el Balensiyya over, clearly showing her dislike of Whomstsoever she was meeting that day". I mean there are also the problems stemming from a fantastically wealthy family enjoying the privilege and status coming from the position of a hereditary nobility but that's by the by.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:45
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Ms Adequate posted:She is supposedly happy enough to tell PMs what she thinks when they visit her (and this is entirely within convention), but accepts that she's absolutely not supposed to give any hint of what they are beyond the walls of that room. As G-man says she's also reported to take her role very very seriously, she spends hours every day reading the briefings she gets and so on. There's probably nobody else alive with a better understanding of how the government functions (lol) and the state of the country. If you're gonna go through the ludicrous process of keeping a royal family and a constitutional monarch around, you could do a hell of a lot worse than Brenda.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:51
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Mm, the queen afaik isn't bad at her job, it's just the nature of her job at all that I object to.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:53
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I mean, if you want a self-enforcing constitution, an old lady with a sword has a very slightly larger chance of getting you that than, say, a book. It’s just like 0.5% rather than a flat zero.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:54
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Could you kill her, and be the new ruler? Why hasn't Boris just shank her and take over. Surprised he hasn't tried already.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:55
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Elizabeth just going ape with the Sword of State and beheading MPs like some kind of elderly John Wick would be amazing.happyhippy posted:Could you kill her, and be the new ruler? Hereditary monarchies do not, unfortunately, play by Highlander rules.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:56
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It's just the Queen writing "CAR CRASH" in her Death Note.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:00
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Darth Walrus posted:Hey, you remember how we were all pointing and laughing at UnHerd? Turns out they have actually provided a useful piece of info about the political situation of the UK (even if they themselves don't quite understand it) - Dominic Cummings is a LessWronger. So in the situation where Johnson has thrown the steering wheel out the window, who is he trying to force to swerve? The EU, or the domestic opposition?
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Aug 29, 2019 21:02
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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forkboy84 posted:The Queen's approval is essentially a rubber stamp and no more. Asking Liz for permission is a constitutional formality, her saying no would have been a far greater break from norms than her saying yes. Having some of the earliest modern democracies. Pros: Bragging rights, experience. Cons: Everything else.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:03
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OwlFancier posted:Mm, the queen afaik isn't bad at her job, it's just the nature of her job at all that I object to. Yeah pretty much. She's good at the job, apart from the way she always looks completely miserable.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:04
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PittTheElder posted:So in the situation where Johnson has thrown the steering wheel out the window, who is he trying to force to swerve? The EU, or the domestic opposition? Again, Dominic Cummings is a LessWronger. If you think he understands how to properly apply game theory (or whatever bastardised reinvention of it they use) then you do not understand what that means. One of the most powerful people in the country thinks Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is high literature. A feeling of intense and crushing religious terror at this concept indicates only that you are still sane.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:07
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Why does Boris, the largest Tory, not simply eat the others?
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Aug 29, 2019 21:07
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Pochoclo posted:Why does Boris, the largest Tory, not simply eat the others? Because you forgot about Eric Pickles, devourer of worlds.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:10
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Is that Daniel Kawczynski's music?
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Aug 29, 2019 21:11
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/29/senior-tory-rebels-ready-to-back-move-against-no-deal-brexit “A growing number of senior Tory rebels have signalled they are now prepared to back urgent legislation to thwart a no-deal Brexit after Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament.” Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me, like, eight or nine times, I might start thinking you’re not really a rebel at all!
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Aug 29, 2019 21:12
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PittTheElder posted:So in the situation where Johnson has thrown the steering wheel out the window, who is he trying to force to swerve? The EU, or the domestic opposition? In this case, probably the EU? Johnson & co would be banking on forcing the EU to concede a better deal (whatever that might be). I mean, what could they be trying to force the domestic opposition to do, try and provoke a confidence vote, or maybe revoke article 50? Former's going to happen anyway, probably, and the latter wouldn't pass. Darth Walrus posted:Again, Dominic Cummings is a LessWronger. If you think he understands how to properly apply game theory (or whatever bastardised reinvention of it they use) then you do not understand what that means. god we're fuuuucked. beaten by a man who reads blog posts like The Shart Risk: A Probabilistic Analysis of Follow-Through
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Aug 29, 2019 21:12
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marktheando posted:Yeah pretty much. She's good at the job, apart from the way she always looks completely miserable. I feel like looking completely miserable is a pretty important part of being a head of state, I mean, what's there to be cheerful about? Juche Couture posted:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/29/senior-tory-rebels-ready-to-back-move-against-no-deal-brexit I am inclined to characterise boris's moves at the moment as being attributable to desperation and/or stupidity rather than cleverness. The tories might well still back him but I'm not sure he's doing some deep political calculus and it's entirely possible he'll alienate enough people to hoist himself. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 21:12
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Junior G-man posted:If you're gonna go through the ludicrous process of keeping a royal family and a constitutional monarch around, you could do a hell of a lot worse than Brenda. Agreed entirely, the existence of the position and role I object to, but if we're going to have one, she's basically the platonic ideal of a figurehead monarch.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:14
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Consider, you could have the queen looking like she's just smelled a particulalry eggy fart. Or you could have tony blair and his flehmen response.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:15
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Wow, scratch a Marxist, find a Monarchist
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Aug 29, 2019 21:18
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OwlFancier posted:I am inclined to characterise boris's moves at the moment as being attributable to desperation and/or stupidity rather than cleverness. The tories might well still back him but I'm not sure he's doing some deep political calculus and it's entirely possible he'll alienate enough people to hoist himself. I'm easily persuaded that BoJo and Cummings have hyped each other up past the point of no return in a fit of "look at us be clever clogs, harf harf". I'm less easily sold the idea that any Tory will have the spine to go through with their sham 'we must defend ourselves from hard Brexit act'. How many times have we seen this charade, only for them to pull out at the last minute? I really lost count at Soubry alone.
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Aug 29, 2019 21:18
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Pochoclo posted:Why does Boris, the largest Tory, not simply eat the others? Because there's only one winner in that contest: 
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Aug 29, 2019 21:20
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Junior G-man posted:I think she probably does. From every account you ever read about her, she does take the whole being-Queen business quite seriously, in terms of being briefed and doing her best. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she's got at least some strong views on it. Which way they lean though, gently caress knows. I don't really mean caring in terms of personal interest, more that if there's some "constitutional crisis" and Bojo refuses to resign or whatever, does she care enough to finally step up and interfere? I dunno, there's people saying that kind of thing and it just sounds like the same hope that "the queen will save us!" only now it's in situation B where she would have more grounds to do it
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Aug 29, 2019 21:20
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