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The charge is $100 / lb for the act of adding refrigerant, the refrigerant itself is gratis.
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Aug 29, 2019 20:10
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TraderStav posted:I had 1 year labor, 10 year parts apparently. I'll dig out the docs when I get home, so am at a bit of a disadvantage at the moment. The link you posted to the refrigerant is extremely helpful though. I'm intending to challenge this more on the unfair rate they are charging me rather than the covering it outright. If they won't budge, see if you can buy a labor warranty on the spot "if you will cover this callout." Buy one to match the parts warranty if they will do it. Really 3 years is a way too short a period for a part to fail. Was it a fitting they did, line failure, or a part itself leaking? If it was part of their workmanship (fittings, pipes) I would push pretty hard for them to good-faith fix it for you. Part of the issue is it might be 100F outside where you are so they know they have you over the barrel. Aside: My GC brought out a licensed HVAC installer yesterday to fix my minisplit which had a kinked lineset. 3 or 4 guys for 3-4 hours in 100F heat, I cannot imagine what it cost the GC. They are good-faith fixing the issue as it was their screw up which made it hard to fix in the first place. It is now blowing ice cold air.
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Aug 29, 2019 22:17
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H110Hawk posted:If they won't budge, see if you can buy a labor warranty on the spot "if you will cover this callout." Buy one to match the parts warranty if they will do it. Really 3 years is a way too short a period for a part to fail. Was it a fitting they did, line failure, or a part itself leaking? If it was part of their workmanship (fittings, pipes) I would push pretty hard for them to good-faith fix it for you. Part of the issue is it might be 100F outside where you are so they know they have you over the barrel. It's actually cooling off here so demand is low, I'm in Michigan. My wife told me they said it was the compressor, which blows my mind. Could three years of not cleaning the outside vents on the unit cause the compressor to overwork THAT much? I don't live in a forest but the tech said it was pretty clogged. It just sounds like a lemon to me. I went years and years on my old unit without cleaning so that doesn't add up to me.
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Aug 29, 2019 22:22
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I bet the dirty coil line is bullshit*, trying to push the blame a little on you. And that $/lb on refrigerant is absolutely ridiculous, especially considering it's a warranty repair on their own install. Let us know how it goes. *Edit- assuming you weren't blowing grass clippings at it, or have a dryer vent pointed directly at the coil. I do clean mine annually but most people don't and unless there's some reason it's getting extra trash in the coil, it probably doesn't make a huge difference. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Aug 29, 2019 |
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Aug 29, 2019 22:39
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angryrobots posted:I bet the dirty coil line is bullshit*, trying to push the blame a little on you. And that $/lb on refrigerant is absolutely ridiculous, especially considering it's a warranty repair on their own install.  Here's the pic of it, thicker than I expected but I don't think it's the worst. Shame me if I'm wrong. No dryer vent and I bag my clippings.
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Aug 29, 2019 22:47
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WTF do you live on the edge of a quarry
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Aug 29, 2019 22:59
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angryrobots posted:WTF do you live on the edge of a quarry Think the cottonwoods were bad this year, but not sure how it got that bad. Honestly no idea where it's all coming from. I live in a suburban neighborhood with roughly a fifth of an acre that isn't thickly wooded.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:00
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TraderStav posted:Think the cottonwoods were bad this year, but not sure how it got that bad. Honestly no idea where it's all coming from. I live in a suburban neighborhood with roughly a fifth of an acre that isn't thickly wooded. If you didn't clean the outside unit for three years, it can easily get that bad or worse. Cottonwood flies everywhere. And running a unit in that condition can easily cause problems. All it takes to avoid that is shutting off the breaker to the unit, and a garden hose. I have never seen refrigerant covered under warranty, ever.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:47
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MRC48B posted:If you didn't clean the outside unit for three years, it can easily get that bad or worse. Cottonwood flies everywhere. Yeah, that was a huge oversight on my part. I've added a monthly task to my Todoist in the summertime to clean it out. Anything similar to do in the furnace from a maintenance stand point? Already doing monthly filter exchanges.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:56
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Correction: the coil on the furnace went, not the compressor.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:01
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TraderStav posted:Yeah, that was a huge oversight on my part. I've added a monthly task to my Todoist in the summertime to clean it out. Anything similar to do in the furnace from a maintenance stand point? Already doing monthly filter exchanges. That depends entirely on how handy you are, and what kind of furnace you have. Filters is the big (and easy) thing. Youtube is a big resource for the DIY inclined.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:04
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TraderStav posted:Correction: the coil on the furnace went, not the compressor. Which has absolutely nothing to do with that codenser being filthy. And it is. You need to clean that poo poo if you have stuff near it that gets sucked in. MRC48B posted:All it takes to avoid that is shutting off the breaker to the unit, and a garden hose. gently caress the breaker, and pull out the pressure washer. Blow that poo poo out through the top and let the fan spin as it will. If that's not good enough then yeah, breaker. And with cottonwood that seems to be that close....it may be of a level where you need to kill the unit and actually take off the fan grate so you can get down in there and blast it out. But this has nothing to do with the failure and warranty claim.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:25
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The tech cleaned it all off when he was here. Really appreciate all the feedback and input, this is very helpful. It doesn't sound as if the warranty is an issue, just the labor and refrigerant costs is what I need to handle in the morning. The tech said that they will definitely work with me, and I recall them being a very customer centric company. Hoping they're reasonable when I call. I don't understand how an industry can have a standard that when parts break super early in the lifecycle that all the labor to fix it and materials are on you. If my engine goes bust after 10,000 miles I don't pay my dealer for the oil and hours to replace it. Here's my plan: - humbly ask them to explain that last paragraph I wrote and how it makes sense. Goal: 100% coverage of all costs (not happening) - have them explain the costs to repair and replenish refrigerant in detail. The labor hours, the cost per unit. Hoping the tech made a mistake and it is 7 gallons for $110, not 7 gallons @ $110. Based on the discussion, bring up the labor warranty scheme. Goal: pay for the refrigerant at a much lower cost and get them to eat the labor since it's been only 3 years. - work the refrigerant angle. How can they charge 25x the price. Negotiate to a much more reasonable price. Goal: eat the labor, pay a reasonable cost for refrigerant - Cry Goal: sweet release of death
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Aug 30, 2019 00:36
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TraderStav posted:I don't understand how an industry can have a standard that when parts break super early in the lifecycle that all the labor to fix it and materials are on you. If my engine goes bust after 10,000 miles I don't pay my dealer for the oil and hours to replace it. They do have P&L warranties; it would've all be covered under that less maybe a small 'roll truck' fee if you were 'no heat/cool'. I've had coolant added/removed for free under my P&L. That said, HVAC work is quite the cabal. There's just enough specialty equipment and knowledge required that it hasn't become a race to the bottom yet. I expect this to shift in the residential side with the DIY minisplits. They're becoming cheap enough ($1000-$1500) that you run it for 7-10 years and throw it out when it fails. The hard work (electrical/drilling holes) is already done. Just connect it up and go.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:58
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Motronic posted:gently caress the breaker, and pull out the pressure washer. Blow that poo poo out through the top and let the fan spin as it will. Please don't tell people to use a pressure washer on the condenser. They will do it wrong and gently caress up the fins. The replacement crew at my company has enough work already, thanks. TraderStav posted:I don't understand how an industry can have a standard that when parts break super early in the lifecycle that all the labor to fix it and materials are on you. If my engine goes bust after 10,000 miles I don't pay my dealer for the oil and hours to replace it. Because until recently, it was a luxury appliance, that required uncommon knowledge and tools to work on. And people are willing to pay. If all they listed was one charge for 700 dollars, then they rolled in a service call charge, office overhead, refrigerant and the tech's hourly rate into one line. also, refrigerant is measured by weight not volume. use pounds/kg on the phone unless your bargaining tactic is to appear uninformed.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:00
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B-Nasty posted:They do have P&L warranties; it would've all be covered under that less maybe a small 'roll truck' fee if you were 'no heat/cool'. I've had coolant added/removed for free under my P&L. So next time I need to make sure I have a P&L warranty when I buy. So I can speak more intelligently tomorrow, can someone please explain WHY the coil has nothing to do with the buildup on the outside? Also, in my partial defense, when looking at the unit the grates always looked cleaned the way the metal bends. No excuse for not blasting them anyway or taking the cover off, but I had looked at periodically and said, “it’s not bad at all” incorrectly.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:02
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MRC48B posted:also, refrigerant is measured by weight not volume. use pounds/kg on the phone unless your bargaining tactic is to appear uninformed. Right, the tech said I need 7 pounds. I’ll use the 25 gallon tank for $110 that motronic posted as a ballpark price. I get that they won’t price it out at the marginal cost of good sold. They need to factor in all sorts of fixed costs (storage, transport, facilities for proper handling, regulation and compliance costs, etc.) I think 4X is not an egregious markup and would settle for that rather than the 25x originally quoted.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:05
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B-Nasty posted:They do have P&L warranties; it would've all be covered under that less maybe a small 'roll truck' fee if you were 'no heat/cool'. I've had coolant added/removed for free under my P&L. The problem with minisplits is they make your house look like a hotel room. So I think it will be a long while before they catch on.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:07
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TraderStav posted:So I can speak more intelligently tomorrow, can someone please explain WHY the coil has nothing to do with the buildup on the outside? If they are replacing the inside coil because it leaks, it's probably leaking due to poo poo manufacturing, return rates for inside coils have gone wayy up over the last decade, as we found out how many pennies the manufacturers have been pinching on build quality and QA. This is a warranty issue, full stop. Running the outside unit dirty like that would cause issues like compressor failure or reduced cooling capacity. This is a homeowner maintenance issue. EDIT: how long was the tech onsite for? 100 bucks an hour is a pretty standard labor rate. MRC48B fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 01:08
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MRC48B posted:Please don't tell people to use a pressure washer on the condenser. They will do it wrong and gently caress up the fins. That was my understanding as well. It's been a long time, but I still have night terrors from past experiences using a fin comb
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Aug 30, 2019 01:36
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MRC48B posted:Please don't tell people to use a pressure washer on the condenser. They will do it wrong and gently caress up the fins. The replacement crew at my company has enough work already, thanks. You are entirely correct and I'm sorry for not being clear about that. Pressure washers can F up even your brand new wood deck if you do it wrong so I was assuming knowledge and technique that I shouldn't have. TraderStav posted:Right, the tech said I need 7 pounds. I’ll use the 25 gallon tank for $110 that motronic posted as a ballpark price. I get that they won’t price it out at the marginal cost of good sold. They need to factor in all sorts of fixed costs (storage, transport, facilities for proper handling, regulation and compliance costs, etc.) I think 4X is not an egregious markup and would settle for that rather than the 25x originally quoted. What I posted was a 25 POUND tank, not gallon. Liquid R410A actually weighs more than water at 8.9 lbs/gal
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Aug 30, 2019 02:02
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Motronic posted:You are entirely correct and I'm sorry for not being clear about that. Oh yes, mistyped that. I understand that all the units are in pounds. 25 pound tank at $110.00, 7 pounds added at $100/ea to my system. I appreciate hitting that home so I don't come across like a dolt. Also confirmed that my unit used R410a, got to the sticker tonight. This all would have been for nought if it was something else inherently more costly.
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Aug 30, 2019 02:10
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Recap of the discussion. Went very well. I chose a good company to deal with. There was confusion from the tech on what was being charged. The $980 estimate did not include any refrigerant at all, but was all of their labor, albeit a bit high. They normally bill out at $130/hr and they figure it's a 5-6 hour job, then you add some extra padding, etc. He started out at $650, but we did negotiate that down to $411 (round $500 including the service call) which he said given the circumstances and the early failure he understands the position and wants to meet in the middle. He's willing to eat some of the cost on labor and material. I know this guy will likely replace this thing out in 2-3 hours so he'll break even. All in all, I feel it's a fair compromise given the fact that I do not have a labor warranty (and I think that's bullshit, but that's the industry). They said the 5 year warranty was $600 and the 10 year $900, most people don't opt for it and I can't say that if I were given the opportunity up front I would've and just rolled the dice. Appreciate all of the discussion on this, sorry to have dominated it for the past 24 hours! Goons rule supreme again.
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Aug 30, 2019 13:35
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TraderStav posted:Recap of the discussion. Sounds like a good company and a fair deal.
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Aug 30, 2019 13:55
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I just got a quote to install an Aprilaire 600M humidifier on my Carrier two stage furnace (80k Btuh, 1600CFM, one year old) for $950. That was the original installer. Amazon has the same thing for $125 in parts, $250 in labor for the Amazon Professional service. Should I be looking for something middle of the road? I can't imagine a swing that large unless the first company is wildly overpriced. Or should I go with the Amazon deal? It's nothing critical to the operation, just the bypass and ductwork and plumbing.
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Aug 30, 2019 17:08
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DkHelmet posted:I just got a quote to install an Aprilaire 600M humidifier on my Carrier two stage furnace (80k Btuh, 1600CFM, one year old) for $950. That was the original installer. Amazon has the same thing for $125 in parts, $250 in labor for the Amazon Professional service. I'd get a few quotes outside of those two. Amazon is almost certainly going to hire some "Chuck in a truck" $10 tech and they'll certainly gently caress something up. B-Nasty posted:They do have P&L warranties; it would've all be covered under that less maybe a small 'roll truck' fee if you were 'no heat/cool'. I've had coolant added/removed for free under my P&L. And if mini-split stuff like that catches on then the field will become even more busy as techs get to fix all the homeowner mistakes from installing them!  TraderStav posted:I don't understand how an industry can have a standard that when parts break super early in the lifecycle that all the labor to fix it and materials are on you. If my engine goes bust after 10,000 miles I don't pay my dealer for the oil and hours to replace it. Because, unlike a car, HVAC stuff isn't nearly as standardized. In one install you might have the AHU in the garage, super easy to swap out the evap coil, no access problems, might be 3-4 hour job max. But other might have the AHU crammed in the attic, or worse, in the crawlspace way in back, you have to crawl and drag all your poo poo with you. Not to mention the varying weights of refrigerant, time to vacuum, etc. And you do need your EPA certs to work on this stuff. In addition to all that, if they're a halfway decent company, they should be checking everything while on site, which it sounds like your tech did. IE checking the condenser for cleanliness, checking contactors/relays/capacitors/etc... While it may be expensive, in theory you're paying for a lot more than just a repair.
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Sep 2, 2019 03:10
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I have a question for you all. I'm intending to perform an installation of a mitsubishi ductless system HVAC into an area with approximately 4 bedrooms, one great room, and a total of 2000 square feet. Is it worth it hiring a special contractor to do this or is my Chinese licensed small-work general contractor (who knows how to do most things but will not charge up the rear end) sufficient? Quotes from diamond companies are charging $25,000 in the bay area, which from a money standpoint is up the rear end in terms of costs.
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Sep 2, 2019 19:27
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ntan1 posted:I have a question for you all. How many heads? You need to run two copper lines and a power cable to each head. You also need to run a condensate drain from each head. A lot of this, including mounting the outdoor unit and running power to it, is definitely "qualified handyman" territory. Doing a unit startup is not. Could you get your guy to do all of that other labor and have an HVAC company come into pressure test, startup, and adjust the refrigerant charge? Should be a while lot cheaper.
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Sep 2, 2019 19:37
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Six. One of the units is a conversion into a duct system that runs in the attic, and the ducts (flexible is sufficient) are about 10-15 feet in a straight line along the same wall (this is to cool/heat the great room). My contractor knows how to run copper lines and test for leakage properly. They can do the pressure test as well, just need to confirm if they have done refrigerant before (I know for a fact they have installed/mounted ductless before).
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Sep 2, 2019 19:43
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ntan1 posted:They can do the pressure test as well, just need to confirm if they have done refrigerant before (I know for a fact they have installed/mounted ductless before). Then the only real issue is making sure they know how to purge the lines and adjust pressures. Mini splits are pre-charged for a specific line set length. If you are over or under it needs to be corrected. To be fair, people are installing those things without even purging lines or anything and they (mostly) work. You're certainly not going to be getting the best efficiency or longevity out of them, but they're pretty forgiving. Especially the inverter models.
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Sep 2, 2019 19:57
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Thanks! The quote of 25k just seems complete and utter rear end. Esp when it's easy just to see how much the parts actually cost with some research.
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Sep 2, 2019 22:03
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ntan1 posted:Thanks! That's a "we don't want your business" quote. HVAC installers in the bay area get to pick and choose jobs.
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Sep 2, 2019 22:21
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ntan1 posted:Thanks! The parts aren't really what you're paying for. The labor is what jacks the price up. So either you have a building that's going to be really difficult to run the lineset in, or they pretty much just don't want to do they job and gave you a really high estimate to shoo you away.
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Sep 2, 2019 22:23
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ExplodingSims posted:The parts aren't really what you're paying for. The labor is what jacks the price up. It's the latter.
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Sep 2, 2019 22:32
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ExplodingSims posted:And if mini-split stuff like that catches on then the field will become even more busy as techs get to fix all the homeowner mistakes from installing them! Perhaps, though stuff like the Mr Cool units with their sealed, pre-charged line sets make it pretty foolproof. If you are capable enough to drill a 3" hole in your house and make sure the condensate line slopes properly, the only thing that might be outside of a intermediate-level DIYer would be hooking up a 20-30 amp 240 disconnect. Reviews are almost overwhelmingly positive. Though, I suppose your correct given that in most cases, people seem to be getting less handy/willing to DIY
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Sep 3, 2019 01:28
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Regarding the mini splits being pre-charged for a specific line set length - if you had the space to leave the excess line set rolled up in an inconspicuous area, is there any reason beyond efficiency loss to do so? Would the efficiency loss be more than negligible?
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Sep 3, 2019 01:30
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angryrobots posted:Regarding the mini splits being pre-charged for a specific line set length - if you had the space to leave the excess line set rolled up in an inconspicuous area, is there any reason beyond efficiency loss to do so? Would the efficiency loss be more than negligible? It doesn't really matter, beyond just looking kinda ugly. For the most part, mini-spilts just run no matter what. Just make sure that you ziptie them down to each other pretty well. If you just leave it coiled up it has the tendency to act like a spring and vibrate excessively. ExplodingSims fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Sep 3, 2019 |
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Sep 3, 2019 02:01
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I'm picky and really not willing to trust mini splits that aren't by a Japanese company.
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Sep 3, 2019 04:32
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ntan1 posted:It's the latter. UPDATE: The contractor company called me and still wanted my business and asked to negotiate. So this legitimately means that they are able to make a profit because there are enough dumb people who will pay out because it's the loving bay area. Still not going with them.
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Sep 3, 2019 18:36
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angryrobots posted:Regarding the mini splits being pre-charged for a specific line set length - if you had the space to leave the excess line set rolled up in an inconspicuous area, is there any reason beyond efficiency loss to do so? Would the efficiency loss be more than negligible? You could have an issue with the oil return if you just have a big vertical coil. If it's laying flat, I doubt you would have an issue.
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Sep 4, 2019 18:28
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