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One of the driving impetuses behind Arena is to let Wizards capture the secondary market spending. Players of non-rotating formats have already proven they're willing to spend more to play than Standard players, they'd be stupid not to try to capitalize on these spending habits. Is going about this in the most ham-fisted way possible the right way way to go about doing so? Probably not, but it's pretty funny.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:03
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Fetchless modern would be pretty tough for mana fixing though right? Like there would have to be some viable mana rocks as fetches are pretty drat versatile
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Aug 29, 2019 23:10
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They're going to put a few cards into Historic at a time so they don't have to waste resources coding and testing entire sets. Once the majority of old cards are in they'll make some grand announcement about Historic being a supported format in both digital and paper and surprise, the few cards they haven't coded into Arena are on the banned list.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:10
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ilmucche posted:Fetchless modern would be pretty tough for mana fixing though right? Like there would have to be some viable mana rocks as fetches are pretty drat versatile That’s essentially the point of not including fetches
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Aug 29, 2019 23:17
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ilmucche posted:Fetchless modern would be pretty tough for mana fixing though right? Like there would have to be some viable mana rocks as fetches are pretty drat versatile mana fixing is too good, right now 1 fetch can make any color of mana. They're trying not to let that particular cat out of the bag in Historic because the opportunity for that is long past for modern.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:26
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TheKingofSprings posted:That’s essentially the point of not including fetches Are 2-3 colour decks a huge problem compared to monocolour decks? I thought it had more to do with shuffling.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:29
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ilmucche posted:Are 2-3 colour decks a huge problem compared to monocolour decks? I thought it had more to do with shuffling. Also, the only competitive five color deck in modern right now doesn’t use fetches. The problem is they wreck standard while they are in it, not that they wreck modern. The issue in modern is that most decks need them, and they are incredibly expensive right now.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:37
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Despite them trying to sabotage the ruleset with Ranked queue being available for 1/3rd of a set and the 2 WC cost for old sets, Historic is gonna own They should print Resto Angel and Thragtusk for old times sake
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Aug 29, 2019 23:41
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Is there more than just a thin difference between wrecking a format and being mandatory in a format?
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Aug 29, 2019 23:45
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Eej posted:Despite them trying to sabotage the ruleset with Ranked queue being available for 1/3rd of a set and the 2 WC cost for old sets, Historic is gonna own Blood4Bones on a thragtusk would rule.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:45
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ilmucche posted:Are 2-3 colour decks a huge problem compared to monocolour decks? I thought it had more to do with shuffling. I think a single land being able to generate potentially 3 or more colors is always going to be problematic. Another issue with fetches is that they make all of the other dual lands that lack a basic type so bad. Check lands, fast lands, etc are so much worse than shocks and duals in a format with fetches. Edit: the thing that I think shows fetches are busted is that they show up in mono colored decks sometimes for the utility factors.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:46
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I thought the bigger issue was the time sink (and increased opportunity to cheat) in tabletop play due to all the extra shuffling that fetches + shocks bring to a format.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:52
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whydirt posted:I thought the bigger issue was the time sink (and increased opportunity to cheat) in tabletop play due to all the extra shuffling that fetches + shocks bring to a format. Fetches are unhealthy for the game for a bunch of reasons.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:55
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The problem with fetches is that they basically make mana symbols meaningless- it's supremely good mana for any 2 or 3 color deck, near-perfect.
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Aug 29, 2019 23:56
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uggy posted:I don’t understand historic I thought it was a format like modern where there’s a starting set and it goes to to current day. Why would they just add random rear end cards not even legal in modern? I’m confused on what they want that format to be. they want the format the fail as hard as brawl or frontier, and there is precedent - they deliberately killed extended off way back when by cutting it from seven blocks to four blocks and then allowing the format to degenerate into garbage, and afterwards you had standard cards that were worthless after rotation because there wasn't anything between standard and legacy/vintage, so people started trying unsupported alternatives like "onslaught-forward" and then we got modern. wotc would like nothing more than if cards that rotated out of standard ceased to exist
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Aug 30, 2019 00:17
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They don’t really have to make historic tho, as arena stands right now, it’s solely standard and folks still play Them trying to kill off something they never even had to make makes no sense to me so I feel like they just goofed and will change it
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Aug 30, 2019 00:20
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They want it as a secondary format to standard, they don't want it dead.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:24
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ilmucche posted:Are 2-3 colour decks a huge problem compared to monocolour decks? I thought it had more to do with shuffling. Fetches + Shocks let you easily play 4-5 colours. If you have fetches that get Plains in your deck you can, for example, put one each of a WB, WR, and WG shockland in your deck and make any colour of mana you want. Aside from a few life there's no deckbuilding cost and it aggressively homogenises deck construction when you can play All The Good Cards
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Aug 30, 2019 00:25
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flatluigi posted:They want it as a secondary format to standard, they don't want it dead. They want it dead because the eternal formats don't make money. Eternal format players don't buy packs and only do sometimes if a Masters set rolls out or for Modern Horizons. We're dumb enough to pay the absurd premium price, but only to a point. Wizards would love nothing more than if we threw our cards into the trash as soon as they were out of Standard. But people don't, so it creates this problem of giving people something to do with their old cards to keep them invested at all in the game.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:29
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Okay but if Historic takes off then with or without the 2 WC per one card cost, people will be paying or playing to get cards that would otherwise never be crafted/opened because they're not in Standard. An Eternal format on MTGA basically ensures an expanding library on top of Standard for players to chase.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:31
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Cactrot posted:So there is an event every time cards are added where you just get playsets of those cards for the entry fee. Seems OK-ish, but it still has the problem that players who miss the boat still have to pay extra, a problem that exists for no reason digitally. All digital card scarcity is artificial. The only decision is how scarce does Wizards want to make a given card.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:36
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Eej posted:Okay but if Historic takes off then with or without the 2 WC per one card cost, people will be paying or playing to get cards that would otherwise never be crafted/opened because they're not in Standard. An Eternal format on MTGA basically ensures an expanding library on top of Standard for players to chase. Right, but the rate at which you would need to craft cards in historic would start dropping fast. Once you have all or most of the good ones, there's really no need to craft any more unless you want to play jank. For example, once you craft shocklands and (supposing they add it) fetches, you're pretty much good with lands forever.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:38
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LifeLynx posted:They're going to put a few cards into Historic at a time so they don't have to waste resources coding and testing entire sets. Once the majority of old cards are in they'll make some grand announcement about Historic being a supported format in both digital and paper and surprise, the few cards they haven't coded into Arena are on the banned list. At a rate of 15 cards per quarter this would take centuries.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:40
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uggy posted:They don’t really have to make historic tho, as arena stands right now, it’s solely standard and folks still play because if they said "your cards post-rotation are completely useless on mtg arena" things would go poorly for them, but if they make a new format for those rotated cards and make it bad/expensive enough that the playerbase drops it and matches never stop, then oh well guess you'll have to play the new standard/draft expansion.
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Aug 30, 2019 00:45
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^ truly different from what arena looks like now Once your historic deck is made for the format magic doesn’t want around but made for some reason (not sure how this works) you never need to get any more cards, the format ends on the date you make your first deck and you never need newer cards
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Aug 30, 2019 00:47
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drainpipe posted:Right, but the rate at which you would need to craft cards in historic would start dropping fast. Once you have all or most of the good ones, there's really no need to craft any more unless you want to play jank. For example, once you craft shocklands and (supposing they add it) fetches, you're pretty much good with lands forever. Sure but it's also possible that in their quarterly infusions of old cards (which you have to pay for!!) they include stuff that enables rotated "junk" rares/mythics like Scapeshift which then makes you have to pony up. Unless you're a grinder who has 90%+ completion of standard legal sets in which case it doesn't matter cause they're still making you pay quarterly for 15-20 new cards and you then become part of the draw for new players to fill out their Historic collection so they can craft a deck and swing haymakers every turn. Also Brainstorm!!
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Aug 30, 2019 00:56
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uggy posted:^ truly different from what arena looks like now if wizards said, "your cards that rotate cease to exist with no compensation" do you seriously think arena is going to thrive?
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Aug 30, 2019 00:59
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Lone Goat posted:Fetches + Shocks let you easily play 4-5 colours. If you have fetches that get Plains in your deck you can, for example, put one each of a WB, WR, and WG shockland in your deck and make any colour of mana you want. Aside from a few life there's no deckbuilding cost and it aggressively homogenises deck construction when you can play All The Good Cards This isn't really true in practice though. Most decks in Modern are 2-3 colors because Wizards has been pretty good about about making payoff cards with difficult mana costs (you aren't splashing Liliana or Cryptic Command), having to shock every turn to get untapped lands isn't actually a sustainable game plan in a format with aggro decks, and there's enough generally available land disruption that brittle mana bases can be punished. Taking it easy on your mana demands also gives you space to run some of the format's powerful utility lands, which can be worth more than splashing a third color just to run Lightning Bolt or something. The actual rainbow decks are usually weird combo engines or stuff like Humans that don't use conventional mana bases. Even in Legacy, with the availability of true dual lands, the powerful land hate available in the format means decks tend to be restrained on their color aspirations (at least in the window between the Deathrite ban and W6 getting printed). EDIT: It seems pretty transparent from Wizard's actions here that they want Historic to exist as a reassurance for people buying into rotating decks, but they do not want Standard to be supplanted by a stable eternal format where the players buy a deck once and play it forever - hence the aggressively poo poo Wildcard pricing and the explicit quarterly shakeups with injections of new cards. Voyager I fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Aug 30, 2019 |
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Aug 30, 2019 00:59
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Lawnie posted:Tbh putting bob in historic would get me to play it once so Imagine then putting in Bob without actual Bob art
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Aug 30, 2019 01:06
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GoutPatrol posted:Imagine then putting in Bob without actual Bob art You know we're getting the Skrillex Bob.
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Aug 30, 2019 01:16
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Tainen posted:They just mentioned on stream some of the historic exclusive cards they are currently testing They can't put Amonkhet or Kaladesh in as sets because they will warp the format unlike these lolol
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Aug 30, 2019 01:30
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Cactrot posted:You know we're getting the Skrillex Bob. gently caress arena
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Aug 30, 2019 01:45
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lol why wurmcoil and etheral armor like you have an opportunity to make a brand new eternal format that avoids all the mistakes that make people hate modern and you capitalize on it by investing significant resources into re-inserting those mistakes
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Aug 30, 2019 01:54
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Lone Goat posted:Fetches + Shocks let you easily play 4-5 colours. If you have fetches that get Plains in your deck you can, for example, put one each of a WB, WR, and WG shockland in your deck and make any colour of mana you want. Aside from a few life there's no deckbuilding cost and it aggressively homogenises deck construction when you can play All The Good Cards I think we're saying the same thing from different sides. Fetch + shock lets multicolour decks run smoothly. Anything 5c is going to run vials or caverns anyway, why is making jund viable a bad thing? Without the fetch + shock combo wouldn't Tron just dominate everyone?
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Aug 30, 2019 01:59
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The current card pool but with random-rear end power cards inserted sounds like a much worse format than just Kaladesh forward
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Aug 30, 2019 02:01
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little munchkin posted:lol why wurmcoil and etheral armor Is Wurmcoil really that big of a deal without Tron lands?
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Aug 30, 2019 02:02
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ilmucche posted:I think we're saying the same thing from different sides. Fetch + shock lets multicolour decks run smoothly. Anything 5c is going to run vials or caverns anyway, why is making jund viable a bad thing? Without the fetch + shock combo wouldn't Tron just dominate everyone? This standard has plenty of good multicolor decks without fetches, fetches aren't necessary and don't add to the format.
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Aug 30, 2019 02:04
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A big flaming stink posted:Is Wurmcoil really that big of a deal without Tron lands? I dont think so. Without tron lands its just another big idiot that gets bounced by t3feri
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Aug 30, 2019 02:05
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AnEdgelord posted:I dont think so. Without tron lands its just another big idiot that gets bounced by t3feri I guess there could be a psuedo Tron deck with like Nissa as the fast Mana but that's not nearly as oppressive
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Aug 30, 2019 02:08
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Ate My Balls Redux posted:The current card pool but with random-rear end power cards inserted sounds like a much worse format than just Kaladesh forward i imagine the idea is "let's get stuff arena-only players would never otherwise get to touch" plus "let's introduce stuff that curbs things in the historic meta that would otherwise be too strong"
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Aug 30, 2019 02:12
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