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Ostentatious posted:I don't see why you can't also be massive dicks to the people you're playing with. practically speaking one tends to run out of people to play with
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Aug 31, 2019 23:46
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People at the table are real people. NPCs are characters. Other people's PCs are also characters but much like you shouldn't do things to the NPCs that upset the real people at your table, you shouldn't do things to their PCs that upset them IRL (upset here meaning 'I'm not just angry or sad or worried about in-game things, I'm actually angry/sad/worried because of the game and it makes me miserable and I don't want that').
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Aug 31, 2019 23:50
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If they don't understand that vampires are on some level out for themselves and refuse to target a person you're playing with, even if they are directly impeding a goal of theirs they are playing the wrong tabletop. Vampires are horrible people.
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Aug 31, 2019 23:50
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ogresque posted:practically speaking one tends to run out of people to play with its possible to have fun with people while everyone is purposely being dicks to eachother at times! it can lead to very funny situations!
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Aug 31, 2019 23:51
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also there's a mechanic to block the mind control!
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Aug 31, 2019 23:55
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There is a material difference between the way one treats a non-playable character that the ST pulled out of their funny voice's motivation creator and the characters that your fellow players have ostensibly have actual care and interest in the way they are shaped into an ongoing story. The written way the books talk about and put into mechanics the blood bonds that players experience versus the way its treated when creating NPCs with blood bonds to players makes this very bright and clear line between PvE and PvP types of play explicitly textual.
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Sep 1, 2019 00:01
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Metapod posted:its possible to have fun with people while everyone is purposely being dicks to eachother at times! it can lead to very funny situations! That sort of thing can be fun if everyone's on board for it -- actually on board, too, not "Well, I'm not thrilled, but I don't want to quit the game" or "three months in, this has suddenly popped up because Kyle wants us to kill the Primogen and the rules don't say he can't Dominate me because my character is 13th gen and his is 11th," or similar. But I think the idea that "playing Vampire" is an automatic open consent to full on team kill mind-gently caress party time is weird, and kind of gross.
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Sep 1, 2019 00:01
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Vampire PvP campaigns are very fun, as long as everyone buys in on it.
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Sep 1, 2019 00:29
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ZearothK posted:Vampire PvP campaigns are very fun, as long as everyone buys in on it. That's really the key thing: If the other players are into PvP, you're not being a dick to them to play PvP. Any more than it's dickish to play chess across from someone, or whatever.
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Sep 1, 2019 00:34
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Joe Slowboat posted:I mean, you're the one pushing vampire rohypnol as preferable to direct vampire mind control, which is a bit rich. Majesty is just as coercive as Dominate, it's just less direct. "Mind-controlling you to be my friend" isn't less mind control than "mind-controlling you to do what I say." It's fine if you're ok with vampiric mind enslavement, but I try to avoid use of dominate on anyone
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Sep 1, 2019 00:44
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Nessus posted:If only we were as wise and cool as you, a superior person who understands things better. Lol. Lmao. There is a middle ground between no dominate on players and always doing dominate on players!
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Sep 1, 2019 00:44
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Any time you take agency away from another player's character, they should be okay with it. Most gamers who play vampire are okay with a certain amount of that. But, "it's vampire get used to it" is not a good reason to do that. I get that the fiction of the setting suggests you "should" be allowed to do things that metatextually are probably jerk moves. The real people you play with are more important than verisimilitude.
Mendrian fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 01:11
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The politics of a coterie is different than vampire vs. mortal by definition. A coterie has a vested interest in keeping each other happy (at varying levels) and even bloodbond by choice.
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Sep 1, 2019 01:55
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The 1E Ventrue clanbook had the best Dominate advice: "Once you use Dominate on someone, he's not your friend."
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Sep 1, 2019 03:42
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Pretend I've pasted that entire grognards.txt post featuring "non-coercive mind control".
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Sep 1, 2019 04:04
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Mendrian posted:Any time you take agency away from another player's character, they should be okay with it. Most gamers who play vampire are okay with a certain amount of that. But, "it's vampire get used to it" is not a good reason to do that. I get that the fiction of the setting suggests you "should" be allowed to do things that metatextually are probably jerm moves. The real people you play with are more important than verisimilitude. have you ever played a game before? not like vampire specifically just a game in general (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 1, 2019 04:55
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what a narrow idea of games, that one should come prepared for treachery always
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Sep 1, 2019 05:15
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Metapod posted:have you ever played a game before? not like vampire specifically just a game in general ...ye-yes? I realize you're metapod but like what are you getting at here specifically. All game is contract. The player, generally, agrees that me, the ST, can devise situations they're not prepared for within the boundaries of the contract we've established because some things are ew. Being forced to have your friend across the table make your character walk on all fours because 'he can' is kind of, you know, ew. If the player across the table does not do that but something less ew, it is because he understands the contract. Do you see what I'm getting at? There are boundaries and a mature table tries to figure out what they are, while an unprepared table blunders into them until people quietly start hating each other.
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Sep 1, 2019 05:20
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Mendrian posted:There are boundaries and a mature table tries to figure out what they are, while an unprepared table blunders into them until people quietly start hating each other. a mature table can handle someone using a mechanic in the game and not be whiny if it goes against them lmao. oh what i was getting at is that in any game not everything is dictated by how a player wants his/her story to go. if we were to play a game of basketball and you stole the ball from me i cannot just stand there and say hey you can't do that that's not right i would have to improve my ball handling and prevent you from stealing the ball from me. same with vampire if you dont want your vampire to be dominated improve your skills that make it harder for it happen!
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Sep 1, 2019 05:49
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Metapod posted:a mature table can handle someone using a mechanic in the game and not be whiny if it goes against them lmao. What is the point of a game of vampire, to you? What is the goal you're working towards? In basketball it's pretty simple: The core game-mechanical goal is to put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing it to you. What do you see as the purpose of a player in Vampire, within the mechanics?
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Sep 1, 2019 05:56
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Joe Slowboat posted:What is the point of a game of vampire, to you? What is the goal you're working towards? In basketball it's pretty simple: The core game-mechanical goal is to put the ball in the basket and prevent the other team from doing it to you. What do you see as the purpose of a player in Vampire, within the mechanics? to be the vampire. the goal is to roleplay your vampire's desires, ambitions, and convictions while doing the ever evolving story the ST creates. the purpose of the player is to play a character and to use the mechanics in the way he/she believes their vampire would.
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Sep 1, 2019 06:09
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This isn't just a Vampire thing; using Enchantment spells in Dungeons & Dragons, weirdass exsurgent viruses in Eclipse Phase, and other "I take over your PC and make them do stuff for extended periods" is basically similar to PC death/KO in the sense that the player at the table becomes unresponsive for a duration of play. Long-term effects are more problematic in the sense that they can last for longer than a typical fight or scene. As a result, the typical Player vs Player problems, compounded with using such an effect on fellow players, runs the risk of kicking a player out of the game for a time. And given how infrequently groups meet (once a week at most) it may not feel very elating to sit around for 30 minutes to an hour watching everyone else play the game. Dominate and mind-control Disciciplines are technically legal within the confines of the game and genre, but require some group input ahead of time to avoid ruffling feathers. Much like if someone wanted to play a Gargoyle, Baali, or Ravnos PC (the first being a walking Masquerade violation with a rather limited powerset, the latter two due to their clan reputations for edgelordiness and racism). Libertad! fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 06:17
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Metapod posted:to be the vampire. the goal is to roleplay your vampire's desires, ambitions, and convictions while doing the ever evolving story the ST creates. the purpose of the player is to play a character and to use the mechanics in the way he/she believes their vampire would. Well, that's a method. Why are you playing a vampire? How do you know you've played a vampire well? Is it to create a good story that you enjoy being part of, and is that more important than being a successful vampire within the fiction? Put another way: Would you ever have a character do something you OOC know is really stupid and is going to screw them over, because it's what they would do and would make for a good story?
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Sep 1, 2019 06:39
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Joe Slowboat posted:Put another way: Would you ever have a character do something you OOC know is really stupid and is going to screw them over, because it's what they would do and would make for a good story? I mean, that's the most entertaining way to play unless it's a no holds barred competitive/dungeon crawl game.
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Sep 1, 2019 12:07
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Metapod posted:to be the vampire. the goal is to roleplay your vampire's desires, ambitions, and convictions while doing the ever evolving story the ST creates. the purpose of the player is to play a character and to use the mechanics in the way he/she believes their vampire would. Okay. But the meta context here is, "I play to have fun." You get together with friends, maybe once a month or less for some people, and you all agree that pretending to be a vampire is fun, so having fun and pretending to be a vampire are the two basic "goals". Pretending to be a vampire, firstly, is much more nebulous than the rules of basketball. "My character would do this" is a notion that completely removes the conscious decision making that is definately happening from the situation. Would you allow a weird mind control fetishist to use your game for fap fodder and if not (I suspect not), why, if it were in-character? Would you bar that character from play in the first place? Edit: somebody post the piss wizard comic thanks. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 14:13
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ZearothK posted:I mean, that's the most entertaining way to play unless it's a no holds barred competitive/dungeon crawl game. I certainly do think that taking that position is much more fun and more aware of what you actually get out of TTRPGs, I was just trying to ask my way there to illustrate the failure of communication here.
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Sep 1, 2019 14:50
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Mendrian posted:Would you allow a weird mind control fetishist to use your game for fap fodder and if not (I suspect not), why, if it were in-character? Would you bar that character from play in the first place? What is this insane extreme example you keep pushing. There's like miles of difference between no dominate use and this
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Sep 1, 2019 15:37
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Metapod posted:What is this insane extreme example you keep pushing. There's like miles of difference between no dominate use and this I never said "no dominate use". I said "other players have to be comfortable with it." That's all. If you have PVP Dominate use, both people should be okay with it. I'm using an extreme example to illustrate that whether you've made them explicit or not, your table already has boundaries. I'm advocating going one step further and asking what those boundaries are before play begins.
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Sep 1, 2019 15:51
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Joe Slowboat posted:Put another way: Would you ever have a character do something you OOC know is really stupid and is going to screw them over, because it's what they would do and would make for a good story? If you're not doing this then its metagaming
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Sep 1, 2019 16:56
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Metapod posted:What is this insane extreme example you keep pushing. There's like miles of difference between no dominate use and this No one in here actually plays the games so it's hard to talk in anything but extremes that would never come up in an actual game Also stop dominating people you monster (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 1, 2019 16:58
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Mendrian posted:I never said "no dominate use". if a player is not comfortable with a mechanic in the game that's pretty big for a lot of clans then it is probably the wrong game for them. AND THATS OKAY!!! no game is for everyone. Oberst posted:No one in here actually plays the games so it's hard to talk in anything but extremes that would never come up in an actual game *using mesmerize* you love dominate and you will dominate someone in this thread!
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Sep 1, 2019 17:11
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Metapod posted:if a player is not comfortable with a mechanic in the game that's pretty big for a lot of clans then it is probably the wrong game for them. AND THATS OKAY!!! no game is for everyone. You're shifting goalposts. You agree that the extreme example is ludicrous, but then jump to the conclusion that such players just aren't cool with Dominate 100% of the time. Also not all Vampire games need to be okay with PvP. You seem to have it in your head there's only one way to play Vampire. Edit: I'm feeling magnanimous, so let me give you an example. I ran a game about a year ago for friends. One of the characters was a Ventrue who specialized in Dominate. She got into a pretty vicious argument with the group's Mekhet. They had all agreed that PvP was off the table but they both liked the idea of the Ventrue Dominating the Melkhet into leaving the room, and it was good and fun. She literally said, "is this okay" and he said "sure". That's literally all I'm asking for here, is this a bridge too loving far? Mendrian fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Sep 1, 2019 |
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Sep 1, 2019 17:32
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Are the players of characters that get Forgetful Minded by the other people at the table going to have a running journal of scenes they don't remember and what they had those memories replaced with to prevent information bleed? Because if we're going to pretend the table is a ball court with points and rules, it does have real mechanics to account for. Of course, the better answer to playing with Dominate being used is to self-police a social contract between the players, because that's been the secret requirement of these powers anyway.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:42
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Oberst posted:If you're not doing this then its metagaming Why is metagaming bad? Like, what is it that the game does that you find valuable, that metagaming harms? Personally I think metagaming is a tool, sometimes useful, sometimes unhelpful. My favorite metagaming is players intentionally having characters make bad decisions or take risks they wouldn't necessarily do if they acted 'rationally' because the player sees it will make for a better story. Still metagaming, but it's a positive.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:43
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Joe Slowboat posted:Why is metagaming bad? Like, what is it that the game does that you find valuable, that metagaming harms? It's fine man, if you like to dominate people and metagame, then thats ok. You do you But I wouldn't consider either of those to be appropriate at my table
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Sep 1, 2019 17:46
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I don't know why I bothered.
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Sep 1, 2019 17:49
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Can y’all at least stop quoting the lovely posters when you respond to them
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Sep 1, 2019 18:08
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Or just not respond to them at all? That'd be swell.
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Sep 1, 2019 18:13
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Mors Rattus posted:Can y’all at least stop quoting the lovely posters when you respond to them I genuinely thought there could be a conversation here about what people get out of playing cutthroat Vampire, and how to make it enjoyable for everyone, which was... wildly optimistic, apparently. (After an initial not-useful-at-all response, I admit).
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Sep 1, 2019 18:14
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Joe Slowboat posted:I genuinely thought there could be a conversation here about what people get out of playing cutthroat Vampire, and how to make it enjoyable for everyone, which was... wildly optimistic, apparently. (After an initial not-useful-at-all response, I admit). For good faith posters, sure. But the people you're arguing with are not that. Pop them on ignore and go into the pros and cons of pvp Chronicles with normal posters.
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Sep 1, 2019 18:23
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